A question for all you veteran Gunsmith's, which lathe would you purchase if you were just starting out and why? Also are there any comparison web sites that I may venture to?

Thanks for your help

I've had a 12X36 Clausing 5900 lathe with varible speed drive that I've been very pleased with for about 7 years now.

My second choice would be a 12X36 Southbend Heavy Ten.

Craftsman named the two that immediately comes to my mind. Another one that's very hard to find is a 13x40 Cincinatti Hydro-shift.

The Clausings are student lathes in a BUNCH of trade schools and are pretty common. The Heavy 10 South Bend is a classic gunsmith's lathe......and a good one.

Here at school we have about 18 or so lathes, They are TurnPro(s), Rockwells, and Southbends. The Southbends and Rockwells are a pure kick, and are very accurate.
I have been SERIOUSLY looking at a CLAUSING/METOSA 13 or 14", if anyone has any comments. Also I was fortunate to look over a TOS, which are EXTREAMLY well made but expensive and hard to find. They are from the Cz republic.

What do you all think of JET lathes and mills?

Kristofer

while I am just a serious hobbist, and not a veteran Gunsmith, I think I can wade in here. I like my grizzly 3-in-1 g9729, www.grizzly.com

BUT
I would NOT buy it if I was going to be a pro smith. I don't think it's the perfect device for any of it's functions, in a semiproduction role. Seriously. For me, a hobbist, it's great. Lots of features and ease of use, but not what I would want to run my SHOP.

Requirements, in my mind, of a smith's lathe and mill vs g9729
1: Speed changes - should have ~150rpm and up.
The vbelt drive on the grizzly is slow, not lever selectable. This is not a hobbist issue, as what's 5 mins to change speeds but the slowest speed is 175.

2: Thread cutting -should be rapid
nope, the grizzly is gear changes, and something of a hassle to change, rather than lever's a-b-c

3: 10" or better swing
yep.. 16" on the grizzly

4: 1/2 hp or better
yep, 3/4 on EACH system

5: 24"+ between centers
yep, 31" and nearly a 2" through hole

6: morse or jacobs tapers
yep, m3 and 2

7: can use 4jaw chuck...
not without some work

8: mill/drill
this is a VERY percise drill, and a decent mill, but the machine really a lathe. the swing(?) of the mill is just too short

In short, for $1500, delivered, I have a machine that I can continue to use for years, as my toy, but I don't think would be the best thing in the world of a professional shop. BTW, other than the 2 or 3 minutes to change the toolholder, I haven't ever been "bothered" by having the "wrong" tool on the mill or drill,that is, toolholder vs chuck. It's just 2 mins to swap.

greatest 4 things about it,
1: modest price
2: WIDE range of speeds and feeds
3: seperate motors
4: powerfeeds on both axis.

jeffe

[ 01-27-2003, 05:52: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

I have Jet's belt drive lathe, and I'm quite happy with it. I've ran Clausings, LeBlondes, Mazaks, Caddilacs, and Cincinnattis, and Hardinges, but for the money, this little Jet is hard to beat. I make fixture components on it now and then, and holding plus or minus .0002" isn't a big trick. It does it quite handlily. I put a Royal collet closure on it, which makes fooling around with the little parts very slick.

If you were interested in one, I'd suggest going with J&L Industrial for the purchase. They're great to work with, and if you decided to throw in some other stuff, you can get it financed with a lease with a $1.00 buy out at the end. I put $15,000.00 plus equipment on my floor for $340.00 dollars a month for 4 years. It's a helluva way to get your feet wet, without a lot of risk. This is especially true when you're just starting out. If you're looking for a mill, I'd buy an Acer, also available through J&L. I don't care how much more or less you spend, I've never seen a mill as nice as the Acer. Make sure that you get the Variable Frequency Drive too. It gives you infinite adjustment on your spindle speed, and at about 500 RPM, you've got to double check to make sure that it's still on. It's super quiet.

I agree with Matt, they are great. I have a Jet 13X40 gear head that will keep up with anything in it's class out there. Before this, I had a Jet 12X36 belt drive which I sold to so I could get this one. The Jet belt drive has made it's way to an armory in Alabama and though it is 23+ years old, it is still going strong... Pretty solid.

Malm

Smallfry ------

I assume your opinion of the TurnPro is less than that of the other two ?? Would you care to elaborate ?
thanks

I am sorry Rancher, I ment a Turnmaster not a Turnpro. At any rate... The Turnmasters we have are all 13X40s and Great running machines. They are Colchester type lathes. Most of them run very well, some have some issues because of abuse by students (droping chucks on beds and what not ). The reason I said the rockwells and the Southbends are a "kick" is that... well if you ever worked on one they seem to be so forgiving. They also are simply amazing to me in how well thought out these machines are and yet the design is "dated"? by some. Everything about the southbends are designed around adjustment for wear, maintainability, and ergonomics (well besides changing the belt on a few) From my understanding when Southbends went from overhead belts to electric motors, they never changed the basic machine... this is evident when you look at the motor/belt assembly. I suppose some more knowledgable can offer some experiance on the southbend/rockwell 10"ers. Just fascinating, look at the Jib "tabs" on the cross slides and backlash adjustments... some have been seriously adjusted over the years from hardwork, and yet these machines ( well maintained ones) will give most new machines a run for there money. Trust me though... if I was given a good deal on a Turmaster id take it Even though I am still green, and a student, after looking at many many lathes and mills in school, shopping for a used one, and industry around the valley, I have learned one thing... I WOULD NEVER BUY A USED MACHINE WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO PERSONALY LOOK IT OVER MYSELF!! EVER!! I see so many used machines on the web... who buys these? People with more money than sense? Those with more experiance I would love to hear from you also.

[ 01-27-2003, 12:21: Message edited by: smallfry ]

For barrel threading 150 rpm is too fast. You will find out what a "fast finger exercise" is.
Unless you are tapering barrels (usually not a good idea) a 24 in bed will do, it will also have less vibration.
Good luck!

jeffe---

Doesn't your machine have a back gear to slow it down? 150 rpm is FAST for threading, boring and large diameters.

Mine goes down to 25 rpm and up to 1500.

JB,
it is fast...too fast, for me most of the time...

I'll look and see if it's got something more to reduce the speeds... or I'll make one!!

jeffe

Matt,
I also have a BDB-1340 and am very happy with it. I had it delivered to my shop from Alley Supply for just under $3000.00. Like J&L they are also great people to work with. Jim

I too have a Jet 13X40, a southbend Heavy ten and a Sharpe 1118E. The Sharpe is fantastically accurate and is essentially a copy of a Hardinge Toolroom Lathe. I use the Jet for all work between centers, and the Sharpe for nearly everything else. I mainly use the Southbend these days for making cartridge Mods and other light stuff.
I have had very mixed results with the Jet. Small parts continuously break. For example the tailstock hold-down lever broke last week and I had to weld it up. Over the three years I've owned it, I've had to replace many small parts and thank god Jet is very good at sending out replacement parts.-Rob

just for the record, south bend is having money difficulties, tried getting one throughout the last year and no go, so better look at others if you wanted that one, we bout a sharp thru a company called DoAll. if anyone needs info or any questions, email me. is a really nice machine. shuler79@zoominternet.net

Emco lathes are one of the most accurate and best at all. No doubt about it.

http://www.emco.at/drehen_konventionell.php?changelang=en

Jiri,

No doubt, but as I recall they run about $15k, whereas the asian imports and used machines can be had for $3k. Suprisingly many top gunsmiths get by with the economical imports and older iron. There is something to be said for the lathe operator that knows the limitations of his machine, and works within those limitations.

Paul H:

My father own a litlle workshop, he is in business in lathe turning, milling, welding, small construction making etc. . . We have there an universal lathe (made in 1972), which is sold (in good condition) in USA for about 10 000U$D. It is accurate, 0.01 mm accuracy possible, but sometimes, when you must turn something really accurate (components for hydraulic systems etc.), it starts to be hot with it . . . My enlish is not very good but I hope you understand what I wont to say . . .

Jiri

I think you should try a few of those mentioned. Some feel better to some people than others do. I use a 15" LeBlond Regal. It just feels right to me.

A pre 1990 Jet 12 X 36 Belt drive if you can find one. Great Gunsmithing lathe. Nice short headstock with a good size hole. I've never found a barrel I couldn't work on through the headstock. see pictures in the photo album at www.rvbprecision.com

If you can't find a pre-1990 Jet (before 1990 they were made in Tiawan, now they are made in mainland China) Then look at a current Jet or a Grizzly. But I suggest you inspect the actual lathe you are buying before you take it home. The fit and finish can vary quite a bit. Stay away from any of the other import lathes. Althouth they all look alike, parts and service are only assured through Jet and Grizzly.

If you want to get into machine tool rebuilding and not gunsmithing, then take the advise of a bunch of other folks and buy a 40 year old American lathe! What a waste of time! Unless you really know what you are doing with old machine tools, your time could be much better spent getting an import up to snuff rather than screwing around with some worn out, ex-battleship lathe......

i have to agree with rvb. if i had it to do over again i would go to grizzly and the jet distributor and get a new lathe, with whom ever was offering the best deal. i bought an older american lathe years ago. i learned alot about rebuilding and adapting. it really takes awhile rebarreling and installing choke tubes to make a lathe pay for itself along with the tooling.

Yeah, talk about machine tool rebuilding...

I picked up a bargain South Bend 9" Model A from university surplus then immediately paid $200 to have it shipped across the state, spent 3 months cleaning it, at least a year gathering the parts needed to make it run decently (replace chipped gears, new belt, et al.), get different chucks to replace the beaten wobbly jawed ones... the process continues and can be a hobby in and of itself...

Now that it's throwing chips, I love the thing eventhough I can't get an action through the headstock (.750") It's also semi-portable and I don't have to knock out a wall to get it in the shop... I'm practicing threading but have not attempted a real barrel yet...

However, if I were to invest that time and money again, I would just bite the bullet and get a South Bend Heavy 10 in decent condition and hire someone to get it in the shop...

G.Malmborg,

My smith has a Jet GH1340 (T- I think), sound right. Is this what you have too?

Any idea what it would be worth, he would sell it and the mill (A BIG ONE)(not sure what), together with all the tools he has and an indexing attachment for under twenty. He want's to retire in Costa Rica.

Brent,

For $20,000 he would be able to.

Yes I have the GH1340T. I can't remember what I paid for it off hand. It seems to me that I paid around $4500.00 for it. Of course with the Phase converter, (it's a 3 Phase machine) Dorian Quick Change tool system and all the Carbide tooling and inserts and stuff to go along with it, I'm probably into this particular set up about $11,000.00. (worth every penny!)

Find out exactly what he's including. What Milling Machine, how old is it? Some of the Bridgeport styles start around $3500.00 and go up from there. Add cooling systems, boring heads, rotary table, dividing heads, power feeds, collets, end mills etc., and you could be in it quite a chunk of change.

Of course, freight to Alaska would probably kill the average person. I assume it's already there in Alaska but you have to take the cost of freight into account when pricing or looking at used machinery and consider it as part of the cost.

I don't know, get a list and post it here and let's see if we can collectively assist you. I have some machine salesmen as customers and maybe I can pick their brains if they have any left.


Malm

Cool, thanks GM. I'll get a list and post it. My dad, brother and I are probably going to get the stuff at the end of work season next fall and keep the stuff at my dads shop. My brother knows 100 times more about machine work than I do at this point. He's been working with him for a while now and will probably work with him over the next winter if we get the equipment after he closes the doors to learn the rest so he can teach us. Dave wants another ten g's to hang out through the winter to finish teaching him if he closes up to do it. We figure we'll finance Derricks schooling if he does the same for us when we have time. If I was only single again too. Were all gun nuts and can't wait? My dads retiring completely after this year so this will be his major dream come true, finally!