An interesting thread, and some wonderful input.

I'm not a professional smith, just a hobbiest who had dreams of opening his own shop. I'm an engineer by training and practice, and have realized after 12 years in a few different industries that it is a better gig than running a shop, partly because I have enough experience to commend a salary that I'd be hard pressed to match with my own shop.

You never mentioned what you wanted to specialize in, and maybe you don't know. What has interested me the most has been custom bolt rifles, and paticularly the metal work. From that standpoint I'd say that the reason the majority of gunsmiths are poor, and many p/o customers by missing promised deliveries is they never master running a profitable shop. By all means the best place to learn would be a small manual job shop that has to make money making short runs of a variety of parts. You will learn how to spend more time actually producing parts as opposed to setting up machines. You'll also learn how to flow work from one step to another as opposed to scurrying around the shop trying to find a jig or fixture, tearing down one machine for a special setup, etc.

With those skills learned, and a zeal for building guns, you'll be well set. There aren't that many top shops in the country because not that many people have both the technical and business skills the pull it off. Some "top shops" don't even have the technical skills, but have done a great job promoting themselves and developing a name for themselves.

My advice would be to find a decent day job and set up a part time shop for smithing your own projects, then start taking on others work. I still may go that route as a retirement gig, but just don't have the free time at this point.

I would really like to specialize in walnut and blue rifles. I think I can be a good stock guy as it seems that there aren't too many of them out there.

As far as running a profitable place - I watched my father build his business and all my uncles all own their own businesses along with my grandparents just about everone in my family is a small businessman.

I have hear that the no 1 complaint of gunsmiths is "they aren't people persons" I rarely hear someone complain bout price just the fact that when they call the 'smith he is short with them or never keeps in touch as to just where their project is, as in smith can't get the barrel the customer wants- special order ect. rather than just wait and never call the customer the customer is sitting there waiting months with no idea whats going on.

This is the best thread I've ever read on becoming a gunsmith. Teal, you are really getting good advice from everyone. You just need to sort through it and determine your best course of action based on your personal situation and priorities. All of us want happiness and for many of us that seems to require a balance of money and job satisfaction.

As riggins suggested, it might be a good thing that your occupational specialty is too short-handed for the navy to let you change. This forum may not be a good place to mention what you do in the navy, but if they are short-handed, I'll bet they are hiring/paying civilians a lot more to do the same thing (and with more control over their lives). That's the situation I'm in now. I can just make too much more money to ignore it. Besides, I'd still be serving my country, and that counts for a lot too. Check the OPM website to see what you will qualify for and what they are paying. IMO there's nothing wrong with keeping gunsmithing a hobby as long as you are overall happy with your life.

If you are really unhappy with the navy, then get out as soon as you can honerably do so. Six years isn't too bad, but any more than that and you would be foolish not to stick it out until retirement. Don't be swayed by the enticements they usually offer at the last minute. Keep your options open by working hard in the mean time, because a lot can change in the four years you have remaining. If it didn't suck sometimes, they wouldn't call it work and they wouldn't pay you to do it.

I think you are in a pretty good situation overall. You still have four years until you reach a "decision point" where you must really make a commitment.

Riggins had some good ideas and I'm sure you can apply some of them to your situation. MOST military armorers are just parts replacers, but I once saw a navy seal weapons demonstration that still impresses me to this day.

As for checkering practice, I'd start with handgun grips. Get a small vise, mount it to a board that can be C-clamped to any table, cut a piece of wood to screw the grips to, and you're in business. Very portable and you won't waste all that effort checkering useless items. I used to carve small animal figurines when I was deployed. Its a useful skill in gunsmithing and it really pleases the spouse to know you were working on something for her while you were away. - John

I know one guy who makes a living as a gunsmith, and does not do rebarreling, he sends that out. That has always struck me as odd.

I know another guy who is a really good gunsmith, but makes a living from his gunstore, and to get him to do gunsmithing usually takes a 3 month wait before the gun can be dropped off. That seems like a shame to me.

I am only an amatuer gunsmith. I can take a gun apart per the book or video, see what part is broken, and order from [shudder] Numrich. I can't charge for fixing guns, but most of the guns brought to my shop are just so dirty they stopped working. I feel honored that guys would trust me to take apart expensive guns. If only they knew how many mistakes I make

Beelzebubba-
You pretty much hit it on the head as far as what I feel I am looking at right now. Thanks for the handgun grips info- I have been sitting here thinking about just how in the heck I'm gonna get a stock cradle in my apartment without a proper set up. I think the handgun thing will be a good start.

I've been keeping my head down and working hard at work- I always get ep/mp on my evals so I am not burnin any bridges there.

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it!

Andrew

Andrew,

When I first started reading this thread I about fell out of my chair. It was as if I was reading my own story. I am in a very similar situation to your own. I am 30 years old and make my living working the family farm and ranch up here in Montana. Very rewarding work and a great place to raise a family. But ever since I was a wee little nipper I have been consumed with a passion to build and shoot fine rifles, shotguns, and handguns. I was a subscriber and avid reader of Guns and Ammo, American Rifleman, etc. at age 10 much to the dismay of my mother who disliked guns and anything associated with them. Luckily my father was more supportive even though he only owned a .30-06 and a 12 gauge and rarely fired them. So I tinkered with old junker guns that I scrounged, graduated from high school and then on to college and earned a Bachelor's degree in Business Management and came back to the farm to settle in for the next 50 years (that's the retirement plan in farm country, you lease the place from your folks until your kids are old enough to lease the place from you). But there was always something missing it seemed. Gunsmithing books, reloading manuals, firearms trade magazines were piled next to the bed and on my desk where I should have been reading Successful Farmer and Top Producer Magazine like my father and neighbors. I started guiding hunters in the fall for an outfitter and I found myself more enamored with their firearms than the 200+ muley they shot with it. 16 hour days on a tractor were made shorter with mental designs of Mauser-actioned sporters and pre-64 Winchester Model 70s. Finally after 8 years of doing a job that I like, I (with my wonderful loving wife's help) have decided to pursue what I love. I'm heading to Trinidad College in January to start the gunsmithing program (I would start in the fall but I have a crop to harvest and cattle to sell). My plan is to excel in school and then literally pound on the doors of the top smiths in the nation until I find one who will take me under his wing. My goal is to produce top quality firearms that work. This current precision rifle, "accuracy is everything" craze will result in a backlash, I predict. As a hunter and a guide, I have seen more hunts ruined by a rifle that failed to function properly than by a rifle that wasn't accurate enough. But, I digress.

Good luck to you in your endeavors and I hope to see you in Trinidad!

P.S. My wife and I are heading down to Trinidad next week for a look-see. Anything we should know about? Good/bad places to eat at or stay at?

Well I was there 2 years ago so I'm sure it has changed a lot. You really need to go to Whittington Ranch in Raton NM. It's like 16 miles south of Trinidad IIRC - the big NRA ranch. Please let me know what you find when you go down there!

Frontlander: You are on the right track. Send me email: to minigun17@yahoo.com I will try to help out.

Former: Student, Custom Gunsmith, TSJC Instructor, now retired.

You hit it on the head for me "a job you love"

I love the metal work too- bit of a tinkerer when wood and metal come together it is the most beautiful thing tho--

There's a lot of good information here. I got start right after high school, you know when your father ask "well son what do you want to do in life?". It was the late 60's and staying in college was a good idea. I told him gunsmithing might be interesting, so he packed me up and send me to Trinidad for 2 years. The school gave me a foundation to build on.

You make it in this business you need to specialize. Learn everything there is to know about an area and become the best.

For the past 7 years I've gone back to Trinidad and taught several courses. Everything from stockmaking to metalsmithing and tools, jigs and fixtures. This is part of the NRA summer program. The point is, if your married and have kids, this might be the place to start. It will takes a weeks vacation and you'll be surprised how much you learn. If it turns out that you don't like gunsmithing. you don't have a lot invested.

I always have a booth at the NRA Convention and this year it was in Pittsburgh. One night after the show I had dinner with Dave Nolan, he's one of the full time teachers at Trinidad. I ask him what the job market was like after a student leaves school. He said it's the best its been in years. He said that there was a out door store, I wish I could remember there name, that was moving into the mid west and that they were hiring almost every gunsmithing student that was avaliable.

So it appears there is a market for your skills after you get out of school. Let face it, that's the important thing.

If you want to visit my web site it's www.gunmaker.net

I think that store is Gander Mountain. Does that ring a bell?

That's it, Gander Mountain. I live on the west coast and they have yet made it to Washington.

When I was living in WI we had them all over the place- Nice store and a great way to kill 2 hrs.

Andrew,

I am not a gunsmith, but, like you, I knew from high school what I wanted to do for a a living. I went to college for two years to absorb what I could, and then struck off on my own, taking what ever job I could get for whatever they were paying. I lived on macaroni and tunafish and drove 15 year old cars for a long time, but I could take it because I loved to get up and go to work every day. Eventually circumstances changed, my persistence paid off (read: I finally learned enough to be really good at my job), and today I make a decent living, have a home and family to be proud of, the time and money to indulge in what is for me a fascinating hobby (gunsmithing, of course), and I still look forward to going to work everyday.

If it is truly what you want, you'll want it badly enough to be successful. As for regrets, just make sure that when you're old and gray you can look back and regret only the things that you did, not the things you didn't do.

I spoke with somebody at the gunsmithing department at Lassen Community today in Susanville. I had called to ask for a schedule of courses for winter and happened to ask for the take on the market right now. he said that there is a lot of demand for gunsmiths, they have had a couple get hired by the government. They don't know who, but it was government. He said they got a call asking about students that were good with 1911's and AR15's etc. When they said they had a couple they were asked if they would be interested in interviewing. They flew out to NC, got interviewed, and upon return to the school said they still didn't know who it was they would be working for, just that it would be "close to Fort Brag". Then they got a call asking if the school admin. thought that the guys would be able to pass for national security clearance, they told the people yes. the guys got hired, and this guy on the phone said they still haven't heard back on who they are working for.

Interesting at least. The good part is knowing that there are jobs out there.

After nearly drowning commercial fishing in Alaska, I decided on a career change. Found gunsmithing schools researching the library, visited the local gunsmith, Arnold Erhardt in Helena who encouraged me to apply at Trinidad (he still works at Capitol Sports in Helena and is happy with his carreer). There was lots of financial aid available in 1975 which I qualified for. Moved to Tdad with wife in tow and spent three years there (she worked, I did work study). Once I learned that someone could actually create a custom rifle, that's all I wanted to do.
After my second year I visited every custom gunmaker between Trinidad and Seattle. Lenard Brownell, Jerry Fisher, Tom Burgess and several others. I wanted to see the "best" work being done. They all warned me it wasn't going to be easy. After graduation I went to work for Green River Forge in Oregon building semi-custom muzzleloaders. Two years later set up my own shop.
Wife left (I don't blame her she wanted children) apprenticed under myself for the next decade. Learned much from reading especially John Bivins articles in the old Rifle mag. Went to first Longrifle Workshop in Kentucky about 1984-5, studied with Mark Silver, Bivins, Lynton McKenzie, Wallace Gusler, Hershal House and others there. Joined ACGG about 1990(?) sold my first bolt rifle built in Tdad to finance the trip. Was surrounded by bolt rifles when I got there. Started doing traditional single shots and double shotguns around that time which paid much better than M/L work. Taught a seminar in single shot stocking at TSJC in 1995, 20 years after I started there.
Nearly thirty years later I have plenty of the kind of work I most love to do. It is impossible to make good money without a national clientel.
In between, I taught myself to write magazine stories and shoot pro quality photos. That national exposer along with always pushing myself to to better work is what has made the difference. There is more demnd now than at any other time in history in all fields of gunwork. It is tough if you have to support a wife and childen, I didn't. Specializing, at least to a certain point is good. A sideline, most gunmakers have one, to make some cash is good, writing and photos are it for me. The biggest problem is part-timers and retirees who don't charge enough and hold prices way down for newcomers. I started charging time and materials 15(?) years ago and gave myself a $5 per hour raise every year for many. Now charge more than three times that and don't want for work. Helps to have a wife with good employment (still don't), but most is just sweat equity and smarts. Metalwork pays better for the most part. The best thing a guy can do after GS school is exactly what D'Arcy did, find the most qualified guy to take you in and learn from him, will save ten years on learning everything from the tools to the work to marketing. Good Luck!

SDH, D'arcy, and others.

I am surprised there hasn't been a few "Ferlachs" or "Gardones" set up between people wanting to go into the trade. By that I mean small groups of new people banding together to invest in the very costly machinery in a central spot and then using it when they need it, and also banding for other things such as group health insurance rates, better deals on larger quantitites of materials and supplies, etc.

Moreover, in paying attention to this industry, it also seems to me that people do not pay enough attention to letting the world know who they are and what they offer. Now there are a few that are getting a website on the internet, but I think of the 115 active members in ACGG there are only 25 or so that have a website, and very few advertize anymore in Rifle Magazine or any of the other magazines.

I still think it was too bad that the Custom Rifle Gazette folded after only one issue. What is needed is a magazine that strictly deals with custom work, and provides reasonable advertizing rates for gunmakers to show off their wares if one doesn't have the national exposure such as SDH and Echols and Miller have.

Blue

I was fortunate enough to get to work with a very knowledgable and capable gunsmith who was able to show me what good work was. My interest in gunsmithing was primarily geared toward BR rifles at the time and I moved into other areas over the years. I've had no formal education as a gunsmith or machinist (my present day job) or anything else for that matter! I have taught myself over the years by trial and error and by seeing what the many skilled people are doing. Nowdays, I occasionally stop in and watch Martin Hagn then come home and wonder why I can't do things as easily as he seems to do them!
Unlike D'Arcy, SDH, Mark Stratton et. al., I'm more representative of the tradesman side of things. My knowledge exceeds my skill level in many instances. Nonetheless I keep very busy and produce work which is apparently satisfactory.
Blue,
When it comes to self promotion etc., I think most who are any good at all have enough work that advertising becomes mostly unnecessary. Most of my advertising is in the form of competing at various matches and doing well. Better yet, having others do well with my rifles. I think the main reason we've never seen a "Ferlach" type of setup in North America is that we are,in general, more independent than our European counterparts. With increasing regulation in the future this may change.
I started gunsmithing professionally about 25 years ago. Since then I have gone through various phases.
Early on I would do just about anything and hated that anyone would think there was something I couldn't do (there was plenty!). This was really kind of my learning phase. I didn't make much money and worked way too much for what I made. I took a break of about a year then went into my earning phase. During this period I did more work than most and made quite a good living. I also gave up hunting for 10 years and worked six 12 hour days each week during the hunting season. After ten years I burned out and quit. After working as a machinist for several years I began to miss the gunsmithing and the gun people so I set up again.
Today the gunsmith faces new challenges all the time in the guise of regulatory hurdles and an ever changing society. I think the opportunities are as good as ever but they are different. The firearms industry itself is a changing one and a new gunsmith will have to work harder to stay current. I am fascinated by the many things that seem to have been forgotten then rediscovered in the trade. I'm also amazed at the levels to which todays custom gunmakers have taken gunmaking as an art. Regards, Bill.