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| <Savage 99> |
According to an ABC story CLP attracts sand and causes jams and Miltec is much better. http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/investigators/wabc_investigators_111803gunlube.html | ||
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| one of us |
That's a big problem in the desert. I worked on helicopters in Southern NM when I was first in the Air Force and you have to go very light on lube only where absolutely needed or you attact the sand. CLP is great for wet conditions cause it leaveas a coating even when "wiped off". If that was my only option in that environment (knew, spoke to several friends that spent time there) I would either run dry or clean at least daily. | |||
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| one of us |
Forty years of government blaming jammed AR POS on maintenance. When are we going to scrap this abomination for a decent service rifle? Notice that good designs like the M-14 and M-60 do not suffer from the near universal "maintenance" problems of the M-16. | |||
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| one of us |
I dont think the GREASE required to lube the M14 bolt would fair much better. | |||
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one of us |
This was discussed earlier in another forum and I believe it was thought that improper maintaince was the problem more than the lube used. http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53997&highlight=iraq+clp | |||
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Moderator |
let's go back to the 14 anyway jeffe | |||
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| one of us |
I think that a weapon designed for bad conditions would fair better, like the AK-47, with same grease and maintenance. but any weapon can jam if allowed to get dirty enough. I personally like this spray on lubricant that my stepfather gets me, they use it in hospitals for the internals of sterilizers and such. It goes on and drys totally. the ONLY drawback I have found is that it does leave a dull look on the parts you spray it on. but it is slicker than a used car salesman. And because dry never attracts any particals of dust or dirt! Red | |||
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| one of us |
When I was in Iraq I had my wife send a huge box of GOOD cleaning supplies out. One of the Gun Shops in the Tampa area sold me the supplies at his cost when she told them what they were for. I really liked the Rem Oil with teflon. It seemed to keep the gun (in my case a M9) working great. | |||
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| one of us |
Maybe the thread title should be "The M-16 / M-4 in Iraq may be costing Lives". I know ARs fairly well. I once saw an M-16 bolt carrier freeze on a pin head sized piece of sand on the firing line in Ft. Sill, TX. The AR has a place in the world. That place is not the Desert, (and probably not our military). I think there was some wisdom in Israel when they worked up the Galil. It can be lubed with foot powder. I can go on and on here. The Galil was developed for that part of the world. The Kalashnikov ia a proven design. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Fort Sill is in Oklahoma | |||
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one of us |
quote:I was going to say there are going to be a whole bunch of really pissed off Sooners when they find out Texas has taked Ft. Sill, Lawton, Duncan Okla. Jim | |||
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| one of us |
Almost any of the "dry film" lubricants such Sandstrom's 9A Molykote or E/M's Perma-Slik G would work much better in the conditions encountered in Iraq than a "wet film" lubricant such as CLP. These are both mil spec products and used extensively for refinishing mags. However, IMO using a dry film lubricant does not change the fact that an AK-47 is a superior weapon to the M-16 for the conditions being encountered. | |||
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| <Loren> |
The M-16 is a really reliable single shot rifle. Any other use is hit or miss. Maintenance of the rifle is one part, the magazines are another source of trouble; they get the top end banged up and they are very hard to fix. My years of service saw good and bad results, and that was in close to ideal conditions for that sort of rifle. I wouldn't blame the lube, most soldiers know to oil & wipe clean even on the range (at least they taught that in the 80's) I used CLP and it works fine if you know what you're doing. | ||
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| One of Us |
Savage, my apologies. I went and posted the same story over in Military. Oops. Ditto the sentiment that the M16's maintenance issues are M16 issues, not maintenance issues. H. C. | |||
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| one of us |
It's amazing how a simple truth like "oil attracts dust" can lead to so many people bad mouthing a fine rifle. I was issued one for a few years and mine never failed me. Sean | |||
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| one of us |
OOPS!!!! I went to Ft. Bliss, TX right afterwards. Sorry about the mistake. I guess Ft. Bliss left a bigger impression on me. It is the biggest of all oxymorons. Should slow down next time. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:What fine rifle? | |||
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| <Hux> |
Don't worry Aussies are still having problems with the Steyr F88...a POS as well. Wimpy 223 as well. They shoud have kept the SLR (FN FAL) a decent rifle for knocking bark of the baddies and reliable as all heck. Our SF guys used the M4 and a mate of mine used his SR25 very successfully over there. It seems they didn't have any problems with the 50 cals on their Landrovers either. | ||
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| One of Us |
quote:Now if we can just get Russia and North Korea to sell our enemies an unreliable rifle, we'll be in good shape. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} H. C. | |||
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| one of us |
I wouldn't say the H&K concept has been ideal as far as the 33 is concerned. The G36 is gas operated with an op rod, Its a big departure for HK to go to a gas operated rifle and a good decision ( my opinion ). My HK 33 ( roller blowback )has these neat little reliefs cut in the chambers that blows alot of carbon back into the action. It seems to get as or more filthy than my AR. Sand, especially dessert sand with fines is difficult to keep out of anything especially when assisted by winds. Does the G36 do a better job of keeping the sand out? My Galil won't keep sand out of the action when you drop the safety down its wide open. In that regard its no better for keeping contamination out than most other rifles. But!!!! the Galil can be fired with no or minimal lube quite well and no powder fouling in the action. I absolutely dislike that junk steel stamping for an action cover that holds the rear sight on my Galil or AK for that matter. Now put a gas operated upper with a piston and op rod on the AR, m16, especially M4 ( the shorter carbine versions seem to get more powder fouling ) and we would have a better rifle for the troops. No one mentioned the Stoner. I have noticed the chromed bolts in the AR don't accumulate powder fouling as much and are easier to clean. If a dry lube is out there that won't hold sand and keep the powder fouling from building up to the extent the rifle won't cycle my hats off, it what the M16, M4 and AR need. As far as the Garand and M1A ( M14) are concerned I had both sold the Garand ( wish I didn't ). If you get enough contamination in the cam slot on the op rod that unlocks the bolt it won't unlock to cycle and you'll have to clean or wiggle it to open by hand. The cam slot is exposed to the elements. What absolutely amazes me is the old timers that machined the parts ( Garand and M14 ) for those rifles without cnc technology. Aren't the M16's, M4 etc built by the lowest bidder like everything else is? How would a G36 fare under those circumstances? | |||
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| one of us |
An AR with a Gas Piston is a Daewoo. They seem like a reliable and mostly sealed rifle. I would reather have one of them than a M16-A2. I guess we could go on and on about the best battle rifle. I comes down to personal choice. They all have +s and -s. I firmly belive the best gun is the best gun for the job. In the open desert, a good bolt gun might not be bad. In Bagdad, maybe a subgun. I don't know, I am not there. I know the 62 gr 22 cal bullet at 2700 out of the M-4 is not very impressive for stopping badguys. I still think the AK/Galil is a better choice for our troops over there. All actions are open to some degree. | |||
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| one of us |
Jeeze, I guess I'm the luckiest SOB in the world. 13 months as a grunt on the DMZ in VN '68-69, used a M-16/AR-16 for over 30 years as a cop and I have yet to see a malfunction. I have used LSA as a lubricant. Please note there has been little or no complaints from grunt units. PFC Lynch said on an interview she handed her "jammed" rifle to her first Sgt. to clear. Piss poor training and leadership got these poor kids in the situation. | |||
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| one of us |
I guess I must be special since I fire around 4000 rounds a year in practice and competition and have never had my AR jam. I think most of the problems in the desert could be solved by closing the dustcover. | |||
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one of us |
quote:Now, we're re-entering the world of reality. Do NOT blame the CLP for this incident. Training and leadership are almost surely the culprits. That unit had weapons failures with EVERY type of weapon they had: 16s, SAWs, and even their M2s. Now, how likely is it that CLP screwed them all up. Actually, if I remember correctly, CLP isn't even used on .50 cal.s. I beleive LSA is (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Bottom line, our support troops were not properly trained or led, in light of the nature of the conflict which we chose to wage. Also contributing in a major way was the fact that there we kicked things off over there without enough ground-pounders to secure the rear and flanks during the dash to Baghdad. Now, don't get me started on the clown Captain that got lost and made the wrong turn while using a GPS! How damned easy do we have to make it for people? RSY | |||
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one of us |
Maybe we can buy FAL's. BTW, nice quote RSY ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
I'm not now or have ever served in the military, take my comment with that in mind. Recently we had a group of Marines shoot at our high power match. I have to give them kudos for even caring enough to try to learn more and shoot better. That said these guys wire amoung the worst shots I have ever seen behind a rifle, astoundingly bad! How they could ever "qualify" ,I will never know. If this is the quality of people were are sending over there we are in trouble. All I can do is help to teach this group to shoot well and hopefully save some of their lives. Seems like our military is trying to make up for training with gadgets. Modern electronics and weapons are great but, if the guy behind the rifle in incapable of doing his primary job he is in trouble. To put it another way, if an enemy is trying to hose you with an AK-47, you need to end the situation immediately. Getting on the horn and calling for help is not going to cut it. IMHO | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Please. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} Granted, not every Marine qualifies Expert, but "the worst shots" you've ever seen??? Come on. Tell me, what was their MOS (aka "job") in the Corps? What unit/base were they from? RSY | |||
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| one of us |
quote:You certainnly were lucky. I served with 1st BN 9th Marines (WalkingDead) 1966-1967. Until about March 1967 jammed rifles were not an issue as we had the M-14. Once issued the M-16 it was constantly an issue. POS killed too many Marines. The rigors of combat require good care of ones weapon. No doubt. Soldiers and Marines understand that. Marines and soldiers also trust their government will give them a well designed weapon. One unlikely to malfunction in any condition. One that does not have to be babied. A weapon that, in the event of a malfunction, can be cleared quickly. Something other than Stoner's plastic POS. All the dry lubricant, training and leadership in the world will not make an inferior design good. | |||
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| one of us |
Granted, not every Marine qualifies Expert, but "the worst shots" you've ever seen??? Come on. Amoung the worst scores I have ever seen on our firing line. As bad as some of the physically challenged shooters, ie. visually and physically handicapped, .....really. Some of them shot scores in the 100s on a 500 possible course of fire. They were not grunts, linguists. They will likely be assigned to units in the field in the Iraq. They will be in harm's way and stand a good chance of being involved in action. They didn't have firearms experience before the military. They did get a month of training in boot camp. They didn't seem to know what they were doing. Heck my wife has about 5 hours total trigger time and could whipe the floor with them. She has had top quality instruction from a double distenguished, in both pistol and rifle Navy shooter, and with humility...from me. She listens and applies what she is taught. At our last pistol match she was in the top 10%. I understand she is an exception. But still, they are supposed to be able to shoot a little. They have hours and hours of range time. My rambling point is that my impression is that training must be of horrible quality. They are smart guys, I don't think that the instructors knew how to teach shooting or the teaching program is flawed. This gets back to jammed weapons. In the Lynch situation the rifles were not cleaned or shot. They were stowed and forgoten. They were full of dirt and grit and failed when needed. One guy did kick ass about 500 yards down the road from her vehicle. PFC Patrick Miller knew how to shoot. http://www.vietnamvets.com/wwwboard/messages/20780.html My understand is that he dinged a whole bunch of Iraqies. His group set up a defendable line and controlled the situation. He had a clean functioning rifle and knew how to use it. He probably saved a bunch of his comrads and did get a Silver Star for his effort. Imagine how effective our forces would be if we had more like him. You can't blaze away indescriminately. You can't fumble with jammed weapons. You need to kill that other guy before he shoots you or blows up your Hummer with an RPG. I am not trying to slight the people who are serving my country. I am very gratefull to them. I just think they need to be trained to shoot and maintain their primary weapon. It is a terrible thing to send unprepared people into action. [ 11-21-2003, 00:34: Message edited by: scot ] | |||
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| one of us |
scot: I guess that makes sense. You have to keep in mind that rifle qualification is an annual event, so the average Marine is limited to those 4 or 5 days a year when it comes to shooting the KD course. I will say, though, that the Marine system is probably the best of all the services for teaching true marksmanship. Compare it to the Army system of a 25-meter BZO, followed by shooting from a rest in a fighting hole at some rubber dummies out to a couple hundred yards, and you'll see the disparity. Most importantly, no branch of the service can make a non-shooter into an expert right out of the chute, anymore than boot camp can make a saint out of a delinquent. We are largely what we bring to the table. In other words, my shooting, while honed in the service, was really a product of my childhood and the good habits and practices I learned therein. RSY [ 11-21-2003, 01:08: Message edited by: RSY ] | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Actually, he was alone, and his weapon was jamming, as well. Here's the scoop from his "60 Minutes" story: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/06/60minutes/main582354.shtml He defintiely deserved the Star. RSY | |||
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| one of us |
Everyone seems to forget, what the Russians knew all along; equip you troops with an idiot proof, low maintenance weapon. I agree, if maintained the current weapon will work. That said, why not just give them something that will work, dirty or not. Its a little impractical to call time out, because a dust storm just passed through, the other side just might want to play,right now. I think that instead of giving the Russians foreign aid, we should buy enough AK type weapons to outfit all or troops. They get a boost to their economy and we get one less excuse for a kid in a body bag. You simply have to equip and train to the lowest common denominator, to keep weapons malfunction to a minimum. | |||
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| one of us |
If I remember correctly, The Lynch bunch were from Ft. Bliss, TX. In the over 6 mos I was there as a Stinger/Avenger Crewmember, I never saw an M-16 of any sort, dummy or real. I did fire a 50 cal once, and a Stinger. The Army does not seem to place much importance on marksmanship. It is not one shot one kill, it is one mag into the dark, then reload. I was once given a box of 30 rd mags, maybe 20 of them, and told to hurry up. We ran 3 to 6 miles a day, (except Sunday). Seem sthe emphasis was on running not shooting. Congrats to PFC Miller. I am not being down on our military. I still belive we have the world's best. There is room for improvement. | |||
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| <Rogue 6> |
I started as an Army light infanty man on a M60. I went through OCS, branched Infantry got a platoon and had a blast. The guys that hunted and/or where just naturally cordinated did well. The big city kids did alot of remedial training. The remf units as a whole would barley qualify. The light grunts alway did well. It's amazing how may troops walk around with there dust cover open never clean there weapon and then squeeze half a bottle of clp into the upper reciever. If a soldier has time to eat/sleep/take a dump then they have plenty of time to have a spotless funtioning weapon. In ten years I don't remember personally having a malfuntion with live ammo. Blank ammo is a completely different story. Yes an Ak or Sks will almost never jam. I would much rather have my ol' m16a2. | ||
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one of us |
27� years experience. Used a M16, M16A1 or M16A2 in Korea (4 yrs 9 mos), CA, GA, FL, NC, SC, KS, TX, etc... Amazing how in some weather conditions any place has dust, sometimes in quantity. Ran a few ranges as RSO and OIC and on many as a Line NCO. MY weapon might jam due to a bad mag but never due to a weapon problem. Proper lube IS an issue but not very often a problem. Yes, carbon is blown back into the weapon. That's why you have to clean more often when using blanks. However, if you clean after every firing session, carbon is NOT an issue.I've seen other firearms rendered inoperable with a small piece of sand or grit in exactly the wrong place. Not all were semi or full auto arms either. You certainly know that any mechanical object is subject to failure. In most cases, weapon failures are a leadership problem, NOT a weapon problem. [ 11-21-2003, 02:32: Message edited by: Hobie ] | |||
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| one of us |
quote:I'd like to hear more about this 500 point course. Also why does your info on PFC Miller differ so widely from the 60 Minute account? Marines must qualify "Marksman" 190/250 to graduate from bootcamp. Then they must requalify annually. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:You used your weapon in a lot of places. Who'd you use it on? Ever use it when enemy rounds are snapping around you thick as bees. After endless days in the rain and mud? More endless days of heat and sand. Humping 15 clicks a day on a couple of hours sleep? I understand the attraction of the M-16. its black and hig-tech. Great in Rambo flicks or hanging in the Den. Our military , however, deserves something better than this POS. | |||
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