Some time back I built a 270 WSM 1999 Montana on a stock that was made up of four slabs of very nice walnut laminated together. I cannot remember who made the stock. I think it was semi-inletted. The more I look at it the more I like it as you can hardly tell it is not one piece of wood. If anyone knows who makes semi finished or finished stocks with this thick 4 piece laminate like this please let me know as I have another Montana action I wish to build.

There used to be ACRA-Bond that was bought by Serengeti Rifles and now is now owned by Kilimanjaro Rifles apparently.

Link

I've sent them a few blanks in the past to laminate...usues a lot of wood! They are now using a couple thin slabs in the middle and thicker slabs on the outside.

Sure beats the appearance of plastic and I think VERY strong. Wish I could talk Rutland into making 1/8" laminated blanks with English walnut. We could use up some of the cheap wood and still have a pretty nice looking stock and hell for strong.

Curtis Cabanas is making laminated blanks with thin laminates, but a little too much red, purple, green, pink...etc. He will be showing at the ACGG show at Dressel's booth if you want a look.

Richard Franklin talks about using three pieces of wood. He sold the stock business to Greg West, but you can order from him or contact Greg. Here is a link to Richard's web site and some pics of some nice laminated stocks.

http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/fancywood.htm

i just finished a laminated maple stock that i lam'd up myself going the opposite route. using some very curly soft maple i made a .700' central core, and several .200" outside laminations to get he thickness needed. i don't think you get the advantage of the stability of a laminatedstock by using only three or four thicker laminations. when the lams are that thick, the growth rings are still too close to begining and ending in the same board to not react to atmosphere the same as a solid piece of wood. if you understand how wood reacts to the atmosphere, you will see that the thinner the lams the more stable the unit....it's the whole idea behind a laminated stock.
as it goes, the stock turned out beutiflly curly as the curls pretty much liked up from slab to slab and the overall picture looked pretty much like a solid stock with a continuous series of curlys and a few lamination line profiles to accentuate the stock's shape.
with useing thinner laminations as i did, the slabs are more or less qurter sawn and rift sawn, which is inherantly more stable than thicker slabs that are still more or less slab sawn. because the grain structure of the curl is present through the entire slabs thickness, it is present evrywhere, regaurdless of shape.
i used "plastic resin marine glue" a two part mix sold by Weldwood. it is a dark reddish brownish purpleish color when mixed and cures very dark reddish brown, so the lam lines look great.
IMHO...the lamstocks that are made up of only three or four thicker slabs are purely hype on the laminated idea and done only to get a stock by using less expensive thinner conventionally sawn lumber... as a "laminated unit", they offer no advantages unless thier lmainations are thin enough to be rift or quarter sawn i.e. the growth rings travel through the piece, face to face at no more than about 45 degrees. if the rings run through the slab at such an angle as to have some of the rings curve through so that the ring starts and ends on the same face or nearly so, the slab will react to atmoshere the same as a normally "slab-sawn" piece and will exert wraping forces on the stock, no matter how well cured.

I just contacted Serengeti Rifles to see if they still do the stock blanks. Looking at their web site they only talk about their complete rifles.

Has anyone used the laminates from www.scopeusout.com ?
They use an African wood called Obeche. They claim that it is very dense but extremely light. They have 3 colors, French Walnut, Light French Walnut and Dark English Walnut.
They have an add that states that D'Arcy Echols uses it.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

James

Duane Wiebe ; Stocks made in that fashion benefit IMO with carbon fiber unidirectional weave between

slabs of wood Super strong and stiff . When used with proper epoxy are nearly bullet proof .

If one adds Kevlar they are just that !. Although Kevlar is difficult fabric to shear cleanly .

I made such a stock years ago and it turned out great. I wanted an ultra-lightweight rifle for my young daughter which would be useful. The Interarms Mini-MkX had just come out. I ordered an action, put on a Douglas No 1 contour barrel at 18" in 6mm/223. Scope was a Burris Mini 2x7. I wanted an ultra light weight stock that would appeal to a little girl, so I took two pieces of incredibly curly maple which was 7/8" thick and very, very light and laminated it with two sheets of walnut veneer stock and one sheet of plain maple veneer in the center.

I had fajen turn a sporter stock from this, removed the pistol grip to make a straight grip and added a fancy claro foreend tip. They turned the stock with the veneer stripe exactly centered, and the finished stock looks like it has a guitar purfling strip inlaid the full length, top and bottom. Length of pull is 12-1/2". The entire rifle weighs in the 5 # range and is accurate. I have actually hunted with it myself, quite successfully. It is much more practical, and just as light, as any "hand rifle". The point of the stock was that for the price of two cutoff scrap boards from my woodshop, I ended up with a maple blank which would have cost hundreds of dollars to dupicate. For a nice looking but cheap walnut blank, the same could be done with walnut scraps and veneers, or just scraps. It's not something you would want to do for an expensive custom, but if you are supplying your own labor, it gives a lot of bang for the buck.

ART,
right you are!.. abou the costs. i can buy enough really nice 4/4 black walnut from my local specialty lumber dealer for about 30-40 bucks to glue up a really nice blank that would would cost hundreds if it were solid and it will behave just fine if lamm'd right and glued up with the right glue.
i realize the loyalty to the craft with using a solid blank and all that, but those blanks just keep getting more and more expensive. out of the each of the average guy, now. i really wonder why more people aren't doing it. even glued up at home in your own shop, they are every bit as good as a solid blank. you don't need to have all those fancy vaccum cured epoxy processies to make decent laminated stock. you just have to obey a few simple rules.
i also really don't think it detracts from the value of a stock if done right because it actually shoud be better than a solid piece of wood and if glued with the right glue and done correctly. the glue lines can be made to just about dissapear or stand out if you so desire. i kind of like to see them, they accentuate the lines of the stock nicely.

I have some experience with laminating stocks.

If done correctly they can be very stable. I will agree, not as stable as a stock that is laminated using 1/8 lams, but still a significant improvement.

I start with rough cut lumber that I have sawed to 5/4. After drying it is cut into roughly the size of blanks. I then surface plane it using a backing board. This eliminates any twist or cup and gives a perfectly true laminate that will lay up against the others without inducing any stress.

I learned early on that just squashing four boards together in a press does not necessarily eliminate stress. Of course the stock waited several months after it was finished to move. I haven’t had any move since I started planning using a backing board.

As others have stated, it is a method of utilizing wood that wouldn’t have otherwise made a stock. I have very little in dollars invested in one of my stocks. That is the positive side.

On the negative side, there is likely a couple hours of work involved in getting the 5/4 boards made into a ready to use blank.

You have to take into account the thickness of your inside laminates. You don’t want the glue joints to end up right at the point of where you are inletting for the receiver. I mill the inside laminates so the glue joint disappears as the barrel gets wider.

Another aspect of this is inletting. You now have a glue joint that is your center line and must be followed exactly or you will end up with more wood showing on one side compared to the other. The bottom metal or any screw holes must be on the bottom center line. There is no hiding a mistake. The slightest “mistake” in laying out, which likely wouldn’t be seen in a monolithic stock, can be seen in a laminated stock.

It would be the same thing as drawing a permanent centerline on, and through, a monolithic blank. That centerline will be there (for ever) for all to see how you did in keeping everything straight.

For the pros here, no problems. I am not a pro by any means.

Jim

Yes to all above ; Wood properly milled dried and prepped with the correct adhesive will make an

outstanding blank .Grain orientation is paramount in retaining the stock straightness when laminating

regardless of number of segments used .

Even different types of woods can be used it one desires a flair for color and or pattern .

I like sandwiching carbon fiber in as it's nearly invisible and really adds stiffness as well as resist

warp . No special equipment other than saw joiner adhesive clamps are needed .

quote:

Serengeti Rifles

No reply to the email I sent Serengeti Rifles.

Since some of us might want to try making our own laminates how about some of you boys elaborating on the details of getting the laminates perfectly flat before gluing.

How about more details of type of glue favored? For hiding the joint? For showing the joint? Will plain old water proof weldwood work?

What type glue are you using when you laminate carbon fiber layers between the wood?

Do you favor using clamps, a press, weight or ?????????

craftsman,
i 've done enough of them have a system dthat seems to work good.
as i've said in my above post, i'f you don't use thin laminates it's sort of counter-productive to the advantages a laminated stock is supposed to have. i have done the thin lams all the way through and the thin/thick lams and have settled on a thicker core of quarter sawn and several thinner outside lams to the desired thickness as IMHO the best way to do it.
as far as getting the lams perfectly flat before glueing, with lams of about .2" thick and quarter or rift or flat is just about automatic with decently cured lumber. i just run them through my planer till i have what i want. my center cor is q-sawn and kept at about .7". i have no problems with a glue line close to a mortise edge. the .7" thickness works nicely and ie just about the thickness of the rear tang of a mauser. it also gives you a good reference for centering the action on the blank. i have used several types of glue and found the weldwood plastic resin marine glue to work the best.( this might also be because i know it works as i have worked in the wooden boat industry a little bit). it cure a deep reddish brown, just about right for accentuating the laminations on a lighter wood such as maple or birch and can be colored darker with food coloring. many have used "gorilla glue" and claim no problems.... idon't know about that... it has been proven that gorill glue isn't cracked up to be what they claim and not truely waterproof....personally, i wouldn't trust the stuff when i know of a glue that i know will work. there's always the obvious,.. epoxies. any one of them sold by suppliers of boat building materials will work fine. none of those are the fast setting types, stay away from them. they can be died and thickened to make the joints dissappear or contrast the wood being used. make sure you don't use too much clamping pressure when you use epoxy. there has to be some adhesive left in the joint . many epoxie glueups fail because the builder used too much pressure and squeezed all the epoxy out of the joint, creating a "dry-joint" clamping pressures need only be moderate with weldwood glues... just enough to get some squeeze-out all over and no more. i have two 1/2 inch steel plates that i clamp with , just spreading the clamps out around the plates evenly. more clamps means you don't have to turn them as tight to get the same sqeeze-out. i use 12-6" c-clamps about 6" apart. the main issue is cureing temprature. the warmer the better i've never done an carbon layer stock, but i'm sure any of the boat building epoxies (west system, etc.) will work fine. west systems has a good website with tons of info about using thier epoxies on wood.
by "plain old water proof weldwood" are speaking of the stuff that comes in the tub as a powder and you mix with water?... if so, then yes it will work fine. my latest stock is glued with it. i died the stuff as dark red as i could and gled up a very curly slab of maple. the gluelines are a " just visible almost black outline of each lam shape". and with .200 inch thick lams, the entire stock isn't too busy and almost looks like a solid stock, with all the curly figure lining up from lam to lam.
once cured and time to start shaping it can be treated like any other solid stock, i've never had any chipping or spliting problems. iwill attest that to the fact that i always bought good quality, carefuly cured, stable lumber from a reputable local supplier.
this has been what i've discovered or figured out about doing lams without big dollar equipment... hope it helps.

Merlinron

So you are using a planer to true the surface of the laminates?

Sounds like you are just purchasing wood through a standard wood supplier. What would be normal cost of walnut boards suitable for this type project? What would be a typical cost of walnut that is 3/4" thick?

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
Since some of us might want to try making our own laminates how about some of you boys elaborating on the details of getting the laminates perfectly flat before gluing.

Its not a secret by any means. You can research this on any woodworking forum. What you need to do is somehow attach the board you want planed to a board that is already true. I use a 3" thick piece of spruce, 8' wide and 40" long. I trued both sides of the spruce backing board. I mix up a little bondo and put little dollops of the stuff on the spruce and carefully lay the walnut board on the dollops and let it harden for a few minutes. I usually use 6 to 8 pencil eraser size dollops. More if you have a really bad board. You don't want to push on the walnut board. Just let it settle into the bondo. When the bondo has set up a while, you can run the whole works through your planer. The top of the walnut will be perfectly flat. I use a chisel and break the bond between the backing board and walnut and clean up what is left on the walnut. Then you can run the opposite side of the walnut board through the planer without the backing board as you now have one good face.

quote:

How about more details of type of glue favored? For hiding the joint? For showing the joint? Will plain old water proof weldwood work?

Yes it will. I did many tests on glues before I started into this. I took pieces of walnut and glued them together with various glues and then soaked them in water to find out how long it would take to make the glue let go. Just because a glue is water soluable, doesn't necessarily mean that water will release it quickly when set up. The resorcinol type glue will give you a redish brown glue joint. Weldwood waterproof will not show. I really haven't met anyone that soaks their stocks in water for more than a week. But if your the one, a laminated stock is not for you.

quote:

Do you favor using clamps, a press, weight or ?????????

I built a multiple screw press, but for one stock a lot of C-clamps would likely get you by.

Here is a pic of a stock for a sako that I am just finishing. This one came out at 3 laminates as the two outside pieces were thick enough to permit that.

Jim

craftsman,
yup, i am using lumber purchased from a regular lumber suplier. the place i get it from is a hardwoods dealer in wausau,wi, "bennet hardwoods". he's got anything you cam imagine. most of his more common select lumber is around $5/bdft. but the exotics can reach $12/14, but you don't need much for a stock. find a place that does't mind you picking through the racks, you want to find boards that will yeild the most quarter or rift sawn material, so they usually have to be from a tree of good size if plain sawn. unless you buy quarter sawn lumber, which of course will cost a few more bucks, but worth it. remember, stability is the premise here, so although plain sawn lumber might look better, it somewhat defeats the reason you're laminating the wood. i know allot of people will normally lam up 3 or 4 thicker pieces, but really think that's wasting time and effort. the thicker pies, even when the grain is reverse oriented, still has the potential to create stresses that will affect stability because they are still thick enough to have a fairly complete growth ring starting and ending on the same surface. any time you have that situation, there will be the potential for more movement and/or stress that can affect the POA.
out of a 4 or 5 quarter board i resaw 2 or 3 slabs and plane them to the thickness i want so that there is no continuous growth ring in the piece. sometimes you have plan your lam thicknesses as you are at the lumber suplier, seeing what lumber is available. i have learned to do this over the 30 yrs i have working with wood, so it is almost an automatic behavior as i look at wood.

Merlinron
Thanks for the help on glues and buying wood

Pdhntr
Thanks for explaining how to use a backing board.

The sporter stock in the photos looks very good! The finish looks flawless, what kind is it?

When you refer to "saw to 5/4" what do you mean by 5/4?

Guys you have shared a wealth of information here. I am going to print it off and put it in my Monty Kennedy book. Sometime in the future I am going to give laminating a try.

craftsman,
rough sawn lumber is sold generally by 1/4 inch increaments in thickness off the sawmill with 4/4(1 inch thick) being the usual standard thickness to get a finished dimension of 3/4 inch thick. so 5/4 lumber would be 1-1/4 thick off the sawmill from wich you can get a full 1 inch thick finished board from. generally the rule goes as follows.... what ever thickness you want finished will have to be 1/4 inch thicker off the mill. i usually buy 5/4 stock when i want to glue up a laminate so that i have allot of room for getting at least 3 good finished lams of about .200" thickness after planing. i start with fairly thick lam planks because usaually, the more passes through the planer the straighter the planks end up and i don't have to worry about if my resaw wanders a bit, which it sometimes does with very hard woods.

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
Pdhntr
The sporter stock in the photos looks very good! The finish looks flawless, what kind is it?

That is Minwax Spar Urethane Spray. This stock is for a working gun and must have a very protective finish. I like the spray as it is very thin and you can soak the stock very well with the first coat. I have used this finish on some real "beater" rifles and it holds up very well to moisture, even when the surface finish has been compromised. I build up coats, wet sanding in between, until the grain is filled. I then wet sand and rub out the final coat using various polishes depending on the finish the customer wants.

The finish as you see it in the pics has not had the final rub out, and has not been checkered. I still have a couple opportunities to screw it up.

quote:

When you refer to "saw to 5/4" what do you mean by 5/4?

Merlinron explained this. All I can add is I have logs sawed to 5/4 and then kiln dried. If I buy all of the wood sawed from the logs I get a better price. If I was to go out and buy the boards already sawed, dried and planed, and then figuring in my labor to laminate, I wouldn't come out on the investment and it would be cheaper to have blanks shipped in. I believe Merlinron has a contact that has rough cut walnut that he can pick through. My supplier is not doing that at this time as the economy won't support it.

quote:

Guys you have shared a wealth of information here. I am going to print it off and put it in my Monty Kennedy book. Sometime in the future I am going to give laminating a try.

Just speaking for myself, I am honored that anything I said is being placed, even for storage, in a book by Monty Kennedy.

Thanks.

Jim

hey pdhntr1,
i don't know where in up north you are, but if it's not too far to go, Bennett hrdwds is in Wausau. he's a great guy and has no problem with picking through his piles, everything he has is inside a heated building. in fact, he encourages you to get exactly what you want. shows where he's got the species you want is and lets you alone to pick all day and wander around in wonderland if you want to. last ime i was there i told him, "this is a bad store, a very bad place to be"... if you get my drift! he just chuckled and said ya, i know, i've been selling this stuff for 20 yrs and i still stand there and stare all the time!there's not too many guys like that around any more! i also have a guy not to far away from wausau that owns a sawmill and a solar kiln that has allot of the more native local hardwoods all the time and his prices are about half of bennett's and he also will let you pick through all that he has. there's a guy in marathon city with big commercial kiln service that has lots of really nice b.walnut all th time,... he keeps about 3000 ft in his kiln regularily and will sell you any amount. no minimum footage at any of these places.

Thanks for the tip Merlinron.

I am about 2 hours north of Wausau, west of Park Falls, however, I get through that area from time to time. I will have to check out Bennetts. Sounds like my kind of place also.

Jim

i bowhunt kinda over in your neck of the woods. my brother in law's folks have 135 acres just NW of Ogema. lot's of deer there.

I shoot competative 100/200/300 benchrest. My primary rifle has a wood stock with thin carbon fiber sheets strategically laminated/sandwiched for stiffness and to stop movement. The stock is made of redwood to reduce weight. The entire rifle with scope and bolt weighes less than 10.5 lbs. While the wood may not be in the same league with quarter sawn California walnut, it looks nice. There is also a sheet of carbon fiber glued into the forend under the free floated barrel and on the flat bottom of the forend where it rides the front rest. You cannot see the carbon fiber under the barrel. In fact, other than the sheet of carbon fiber under the forend, it is very difficult to find the other sheets on the gun. It looks great, is as stable as a rock and is the exact method I would use for a custom wood stock hunting rifle.

Jeff,

Could you please explain something?

Why is the butt shaped as it is? I see that the top is almost flat, and there isn't any cheek piece of any kind.

Very nice polish on the barrel and action.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by pdhntr1:
Jeff,

Could you please explain something?

Why is the butt shaped as it is? I see that the top is almost flat, and there isn't any cheek piece of any kind.

Very nice polish on the barrel and action.

Jim

Dear Jim:

This rifle is specifically designed for competative benchrest shooting - it would be a very poor hunting rifle. The butt shape is intended to facilitate free recoil shooting - in other words, it helps avoid having your check touch the rear of the stock. This helps to ensure more effective gun handling and avoid inconsistent recoil drag from shot to shot. It also helps to lower the center of gravity for better stability in the rear bag.

I had the action polished before bedding and the barrel is a nice Kreiger LV contour.

I hope this response helps.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Welker:

quote:

Originally posted by pdhntr1:
Jeff,

Could you please explain something?

Why is the butt shaped as it is? I see that the top is almost flat, and there isn't any cheek piece of any kind.

Very nice polish on the barrel and action.

Jim

Dear Jim:

This rifle is specifically designed for competative benchrest shooting - it would be a very poor hunting rifle. The butt shape is intended to facilitate free recoil shooting - in other words, it helps avoid having your check touch the rear of the stock. This helps to ensure more effective gun handling and avoid inconsistent recoil drag from shot to shot. It also helps to lower the center of gravity for better stability in the rear bag.

I had the action polished before bedding and the barrel is a nice Kreiger LV contour.

I hope this response helps.

Thanks Jeff,

My first thought when seeing the butt stock was that it was designed so your cheek does not come in contact when shooting. I guess I tend to live under rocks (or snow banks) up here, and I just wasn't sure if that was the case.

Interesting. I can understand the reasoning.

I like my Kriegers also.

Jim