While I have mixed my own caustic bluing salts and its no real trick to mix up a formula for slow rust blue, does anyone have a recipe for an express blue?
I mean what is in Mark Lee's Express Blue #1 or Art's Belgian Blue. I have used several bottles of Art's and one bottle of Mark's. Kinda prefer Art's. I would think it would be possible to mix some up. I've got Angier's book but it always seems he calls for some off the wall ingredient. Just wondering what is in them. Also, did i dream it or did Arts eliminate Mercury from their solution a while back?
Thanks,

When Brownells brought the old 'Belgian Express Blue' back on the market a few years back (the stuff that Stoegers and Herters used to sell) I bought a small bottle remembering how well the 'old stuff' had worked I used in the 60's & 70's.

I thought that the mercury bi-chloride had been sidestepped somehow from the old formulation to the new.
I swiped some of the new stuff on a piece of warmed up brass,,and there was the mercury plated out on it. Had that distinctive smell to it too from the merc compound hitting the hot surface.

Never used it again and went back to Mark Lees for Express Blue soln.
Always works, but I admit to doing most all my work in slow rust and use L/Mtn for that.

Never tried Art's. I figured it was about the same as the Belgian Blue.
That B/Blue really worked nice. So did Birchwood Casey old formula Barrel Brown as a rust blue soln. It had mercury bi-chloride in it too. Then they changed the formulation of that when all things Mercury went taboo.
I guess that's not such a bad thing, I shake enough now as it is!

Angiers book is interesting and was my pathway into rustbluing about 50yrs ago. I'm long past trying to mix my own anymore but a few of the really simple ones (2 or 3 ingredients)are about the best of the slow rust formulas.
Creating rust doesn't require 14 different chemicals in one mix though it may certainly result in it.

Technique and keepin' it clean gets you the rest of what you're looking for.

Just my thoughts,,not much help though,,

Some of those (Angier) chemicals just aren't available now. For instance, The Swiss Army formula was a marvelous blue, but required "Sweet spirits of Nitre" which I'm told was a medicine to make one sweat???

On the minus side, the stuff created gas that could rupture bottles, which made one reach for said bottle with a certain amount of "flinch"

Besides painstaking cleanliness and proper preparation, does the chemical makeup of the steel that one is bluing have something to do with the overall success of the bluing job?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Some of those (Angier) chemicals just aren't available now. For instance, The Swiss Army formula was a marvelous blue, but required "Sweet spirits of Nitre" which I'm told was a medicine to make one sweat???

On the minus side, the stuff created gas that could rupture bottles, which made one reach for said bottle with a certain amount of "flinch"

400 proof Evereclear. Basically no water content.

Also used in Slakum. For dissolving the Carnuba wax. The old time London stock finishers usually made up a small amount of Slakum (also called Purdey Oil) each morning. The stock finisher poured out a cup of the stuff, used about an ounce in the Slakum mix, and drank the rest while rubbing the mixture into the stock. Relieved boredom.

I have replaced the boiled linseed oil with the real stuff.

The two part teak oil is better: Sealer and oil after the Alkanet mix has been used.

Does the steel type matter? Definitely. High nickel, and chromium steels do not want to rust as well as steels without those elements in them. And of course, put enough chrome in it and you get stainless steel which essentially, won't rust. (It will some)
But most steel,, even modern alloys like 4140 and 8620 will rust well. Heat treatment might matter, might not; like a case hardened surface; I don't know about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
While I have mixed my own caustic bluing salts and its no real trick to mix up a formula for slow rust blue, does anyone have a recipe for an express blue?
I mean what is in Mark Lee's Express Blue #1 or Art's Belgian Blue. I have used several bottles of Art's and one bottle of Mark's. Kinda prefer Art's. I would think it would be possible to mix some up. I've got Angier's book but it always seems he calls for some off the wall ingredient. Just wondering what is in them. Also, did i dream it or did Arts eliminate Mercury from their solution a while back?
Thanks,

Angier's book has the formula on page 70, Ab 10. "20 minute blue"

Why not try an accelerated rust blue? My formulas and methods can give a beautiful rust blue in as little as 3 hrs. Check out the Blog for details.

www.rustblue.com

Bob

I checked out the recipe in Angiers book and it requires Mercuric Chloride.
I'll keep trying.
Bob, do you have any solutions that work with the boiling method like Art's or Mark's?

If you have a business license and a physical address you can get mercuric chloride but it is quite pricey $$$$$$.

My product is a modern reproduction of the late 19th century industrial rust blueing formulas using safe ingredients available today. They were designed to be used to blue guns in 1 day. If you employ my methods and chemicals you can rust blue a gun in a matter of a few hours vs the days and weeks the old literature describes.

I do not produce "Express Formulas" (i.e. hot water method) like Belgian Blue. Instead I offer an alternative which produces a finish equivalent to the classic rust blues of the past. This can be done in a fraction of the time using my methods. Remember, armories back in the day had to produce hundreds of finished arms a day to be competitive. Potent chemicals and steam conversion allowed them to do that.

Think about it-you can't wait two weeks to slow rust blue a firearm when you have a contract due. Accelerated methods were developed using steam and dry heat that reduced production time to hours rather than weeks. Check out my blog for customer testimonials and pics.

Bob
www.rustblue.com

Bob

Is your product a "Dangerous Goods"? Am I allowed to carry it in my checked baggage on a flight? I found that I was not allowed to carry Pilkingtons in my checked baggage.

I mixed Hydrochloric acid with degreased steel wool & then added Nitric acid. A common rust bluing formula that I found on the web. Easier to use Feric Chloride I am told. I could not get hold of real old fashioned IRON nails!

Bobster's blue formulas are all I use now; they work, and steaming is about 50 times faster than boiling a tank full of water. Steaming only requires less than a quart. Can you take them on an airplane? I don't know.

Yes, my product is classified as a hazardous material and is prohibited from air transport. Land or sea only.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Bob

Is your product a "Dangerous Goods"? Am I allowed to carry it in my checked baggage on a flight? I found that I was not allowed to carry Pilkingtons in my checked baggage.

I mixed Hydrochloric acid with degreased steel wool & then added Nitric acid. A common rust bluing formula that I found on the web. Easier to use Feric Chloride I am told. I could not get hold of real old fashioned IRON nails!

I don't think your solution is all that dangerous; it doesn't taste too bad over ice.

In a normal situation a piece of steel starts rusting (oxidizing) and the rust is a somewhat reddish brown color. When one wipes it off the steel shows up as being "rusted" with a very small at first "pit" which can become worse over time.

But somehow, someway, that same (or is it the same) reddish brown substance we call rust gets some steam or water on it and it turns black and doesn't leave any pitting.

Just what is the scientific explanation for that?

The hot water vapor is converting ferric oxide which is rust, to ferrous oxide, which is not rust, and is black. Iron oxide, or Wustite. That is why rust bluing no longer will rust. The pitting is still there; it is just microscopic.

dpcd, pretty sure it's the other way around, boiling or steaming converts the brown ferrous oxide into black ferro-ferric oxide.

Crap; don't blame me; blame Wikipedia. I got a solid C+ in Chemistry.

what is the steel turned in to when its "caustic" blued?

I started steaming a couple years ago. Works out much better.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
what is the steel turned in to when its "caustic" blued?

The same ferro-ferric iron oxide but it is much less tenacious and easily removed.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Some of those (Angier) chemicals just aren't available now. For instance, The Swiss Army formula was a marvelous blue, but required "Sweet spirits of Nitre" which I'm told was a medicine to make one sweat???

On the minus side, the stuff created gas that could rupture bottles, which made one reach for said bottle with a certain amount of "flinch"

Ethyl nitrite.

Angier went on to write that the substitution of ethyl alcohol yielded the same results. Ethyl Nitrite is not magic. All you need is a small chain alcohol to act as a "surfactant" to aid in the spreading and sticking of the blueing solution to the metal. Ethyl or methyl alcohol work fine. You don't want a long chain alcohol like isopropyl because it reacts too much with the acids producing out-gassing. Alcohols yield a finer grain rust and ultimately a shinier/satiny rust blue.

Most of those old chemicals are available but some are too toxic and/or prohibitively expensive. There are many substitutes that work fine. Check out my website.

www.rustblue.com

Nitroman, were you with DuPont by any chance?

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Some of those (Angier) chemicals just aren't available now. For instance, The Swiss Army formula was a marvelous blue, but required "Sweet spirits of Nitre" which I'm told was a medicine to make one sweat???

On the minus side, the stuff created gas that could rupture bottles, which made one reach for said bottle with a certain amount of "flinch"

Ethyl nitrite.

No sir, I was not.

Just wondering. I was a "Duponter" and back in the 1980's "Better living through chemistry" was a tagline in ads.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:
No sir, I was not.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Just wondering. I was a "Duponter" and back in the 1980's "Better living through chemistry" was a tagline in ads.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:
No sir, I was not.

And Dow said Agent Orange was harmless.

And some people say climate change is a hoax!

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Just wondering. I was a "Duponter" and back in the 1980's "Better living through chemistry" was a tagline in ads.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:
No sir, I was not.

And Dow said Agent Orange was harmless.

Well lets be fair. Plexiglass (WW2 aircraft), nylon (parachutes), antibiotics, antifungals, antivirals, food preservatives (that prevent us from dying due to bacterial infections), innoculations, anti-venoms, to name a few are all due to chemistry. Come to think of it, this hobby of re-loading ammunition is made possible due to chemistry (propellants). So "don't throw the baby out with the bath water". Climate change is a fact backed up by millions of years of geologic data. Global warming due to human intervention is a contested reality. Based on past climate history we are lucky to live when we do. How would you like to be living in NYC 15,000 yrs ago when there was a mile high wall of ice ready to scrape your ass off the face of the earth?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
And some people say climate change is a hoax!

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Just wondering. I was a "Duponter" and back in the 1980's "Better living through chemistry" was a tagline in ads.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:
No sir, I was not.

And Dow said Agent Orange was harmless.

Can this process be used to touch up a factory finish without taking the whole thing down to bare metal again? I'm guessing that the existing finish is a "hot" blue. If applied over an existing blue, can it darken or improve the OEM finish?

Yes you can use rust blueing for touch up. Even over existing hot blue. If the touch up is extensive I generally touch up the worn spots, then go over everything to blend if not satisfied. The result will be a bright satin. Not generally recommended if you want a high polish blue.

quote:

Originally posted by jpl:
Can this process be used to touch up a factory finish without taking the whole thing down to bare metal again? I'm guessing that the existing finish is a "hot" blue. If applied over an existing blue, can it darken or improve the OEM finish?

Thank you sir

My post was a bit tongue in cheek.

The whole global warming & climate change issue is not understood very well as it is extremely complex - yes more complex to understand than Health care!

Yes the earth is getting hotter. BUT it is also getting dimmer! The smog & dust in the atmosphere today is a lot worse than it was 30 or 50 or 200 years ago. This is actually protecting us from the sun. If not for the smog and dust, it would be a lot hotter and we would not survive.

Just think about it.

Sorry for the side track.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Well lets be fair. Plexiglass (WW2 aircraft), nylon (parachutes), antibiotics, antifungals, antivirals, food preservatives (that prevent us from dying due to bacterial infections), innoculations, anti-venoms, to name a few are all due to chemistry. Come to think of it, this hobby of re-loading ammunition is made possible due to chemistry (propellants). So "don't throw the baby out with the bath water". Climate change is a fact backed up by millions of years of geologic data. Global warming due to human intervention is a contested reality. Based on past climate history we are lucky to live when we do. How would you like to be living in NYC 15,000 yrs ago when there was a mile high wall of ice ready to scrape your ass off the face of the earth?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
And some people say climate change is a hoax!

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Just wondering. I was a "Duponter" and back in the 1980's "Better living through chemistry" was a tagline in ads.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:
No sir, I was not.

And Dow said Agent Orange was harmless.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Thank you sir

My post was a bit tongue in cheek.

The whole global warming & climate change issue is not understood very well as it is extremely complex - yes more complex to understand than Health care!

Yes the earth is getting hotter. BUT it is also getting dimmer! The smog & dust in the atmosphere today is a lot worse than it was 30 or 50 or 200 years ago. This is actually protecting us from the sun. If not for the smog and dust, it would be a lot hotter and we would not survive.

Just think about it.

Sorry for the side track.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Well lets be fair. Plexiglass (WW2 aircraft), nylon (parachutes), antibiotics, antifungals, antivirals, food preservatives (that prevent us from dying due to bacterial infections), innoculations, anti-venoms, to name a few are all due to chemistry. Come to think of it, this hobby of re-loading ammunition is made possible due to chemistry (propellants). So "don't throw the baby out with the bath water". Climate change is a fact backed up by millions of years of geologic data. Global warming due to human intervention is a contested reality. Based on past climate history we are lucky to live when we do. How would you like to be living in NYC 15,000 yrs ago when there was a mile high wall of ice ready to scrape your ass off the face of the earth?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
And some people say climate change is a hoax!

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Just wondering. I was a "Duponter" and back in the 1980's "Better living through chemistry" was a tagline in ads.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:
No sir, I was not.

And Dow said Agent Orange was harmless.

You just can't keep your lunacy in the "Crater"?????? Really?????

Jim, only ethical people have boundries.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Thank you sir

My post was a bit tongue in cheek.

The whole global warming & climate change issue is not understood very well as it is extremely complex - yes more complex to understand than Health care!

Yes the earth is getting hotter. BUT it is also getting dimmer! The smog & dust in the atmosphere today is a lot worse than it was 30 or 50 or 200 years ago. This is actually protecting us from the sun. If not for the smog and dust, it would be a lot hotter and we would not survive.

Just think about it.

Sorry for the side track.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Well lets be fair. Plexiglass (WW2 aircraft), nylon (parachutes), antibiotics, antifungals, antivirals, food preservatives (that prevent us from dying due to bacterial infections), innoculations, anti-venoms, to name a few are all due to chemistry. Come to think of it, this hobby of re-loading ammunition is made possible due to chemistry (propellants). So "don't throw the baby out with the bath water". Climate change is a fact backed up by millions of years of geologic data. Global warming due to human intervention is a contested reality. Based on past climate history we are lucky to live when we do. How would you like to be living in NYC 15,000 yrs ago when there was a mile high wall of ice ready to scrape your ass off the face of the earth?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
And some people say climate change is a hoax!

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Just wondering. I was a "Duponter" and back in the 1980's "Better living through chemistry" was a tagline in ads.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:
No sir, I was not.

And Dow said Agent Orange was harmless.

You just can't keep your lunacy in the "Crater"?????? Really?????

You talking to me?

No Craig. Our agenda oriented friend from New Zealand.

No sir, what he,said.