Mark,
I doubt only 1 or 2 of 500 buyers would want drawings of tooling to have dimensions or construction lines to have different widths than dimension lines.

And for you to make such a book, and defend it without promise of corrective action in another edition, says something about you.



georgeld,
1) If any welds are below the surface and don't clean up, then they get re sand blasted and re welded, until they clean up.
2) As for weak and dangerous: Irrelevant and incorrect, as there are no welds between the barrel threads and locking lugs. 1% of the strength would still be functional.
3) As for junking it: Your hectoring has undermined your credibility. Your post can't be taken seriously until you have redeemed yourself.

safari_hunter,
Growing up in a gun designing engineering family, I am generally disgusted with all gun writers, except de Hass. I love every word he ever wrote.

--

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Could you take a mauser holding fixture like Brownells sells, put a shallow slot in it where the parting tool will pass, cinch down the receiver and then cut it through with the tool?

If that wouldn't hold things rigidly enough you could also put some thin padding material on the top of the front and rear receiver rings, and pass a piece of metal strapping over each end of the receiver. Reef the strapping down, and nothing is going any where.

A more elegant solution would be to fabricate a "T" shaped piece to go in the action to the sides of where the cut(s) will occur. Those would fit over the receiver rails, and then would be screwed down onto the holding fixture.

Now the reciever is held securely front and back, but the parting tool has enough room to cut on through the reciever. Those "T" pieces should be easy to make.

Easy, peasy, puddin 'n pie.

LD

You might be able to slightly score and slightly slot a square bottomed receiver with a parting tool on a lathe, assuming you don’t smack the tip off the parting blade with the flat sides of the mag well opening hitting it at 90 degrees every time they swing around, but you would still need to saw it in half.

Take a Mauser receiver and put it on a mandrel in your lathe and then mount a piece of chalk in your tool post and slowly rotate the mandrel and advance the cross feed into the work and see where the chalk touches the receiver...then you can see the problem you are going to have. The first place the tool bit will touch the receiver is at the 90 degree flat sides of the bottom. You will literally have a flat piece of hardened steel smacking the top of thin tip of the parting tool. You’ll have “whack-whack...pause...whack-whack...pause...etc, until you can advance the blade far enough to start getting into the radius on the left side rail.

Parting tools work best when the tip of the blade is held as close to the tool post as possible to avoid flex. In order to have enough blade sticking out to cut through the flat bottom area and reach the side rail you would have to have the blade sitting out pretty far from the tool post.

Could it done?...I guess it could, but it’s hardly a reliable or efficient way to do it. Power hack saws or circular cut-off blades could do 20 of them in the time it took you to try and do one on a lathe.

I don't see why you can't do it with a milling machine after you anneal the action.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I don't see why you can't do it with a milling machine after you anneal the action.

Would be a hell of allot easier and better than trying to use a lathe...just my opinion.

Apparantly some posts have been deleted.....

As to cutting the action in half I'm puzzled as to why a common hack saw isn't used?.... and squaring the pieces up in a milling machine don't require a annealing operation at all as even a hardened action is still not too hard to mill with HSS steel endmills.....that is except for the eddystones.

tnekkcc, interesting job.....what cartridge is this planned for?



I like it for sure.

I am planning 6mmBR for short and 338 Lapua for long.

I'm interested in seeing how you will handle the extractor.

Vapodog

I will kick in $150 for a couple of real junky actions if you can find a couple. Lets cut em and weld em and see what we get.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Vapodog

I will kick in $150 for a couple of real junky actions if you can find a couple. Lets cut em and weld em and see what we get.

I'm up to my ass in aligators building a house right now....this is something I'd like to do for a winter project.

There have been some good ideas mentioned here.....especially the idea of coming up with two actions in the end.....a long one and a short one.....one for 300 H&H and one for .223
I might be interested later.....right now all I have is a bunch of old VZ-24s.

Vapo

Seeing as how you are a rather tall fellow, there must be one hell of a lot of alligators.

Good luck on the house.

Rick you mount the reciever on a bolt face trueing mandrel but just don't cut all the way through the action. Leave a wee little bit then finish the parting by hand. This method keeps everything is nice & square.

By the way tnekkcc I will be more than happy to take Marks book off your hands for $25.00 seeing as how you don't like & all.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Rick you mount the reciever on a bolt face trueing mandrel but just don't cut all the way through the action. Leave a wee little bit then finish the parting by hand. This method keeps everything is nice & square.

A chop saw would have the action in half in a fraction of the time it would take to mount the receiver...

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Rick you mount the reciever on a bolt face trueing mandrel but just don't cut all the way through the action. Leave a wee little bit then finish the parting by hand. This method keeps everything is nice & square.

A chop saw would have the action in half in a fraction of the time it would take to mount the receiver...

Amen!!!!!

Having parted a bit of material on a lathe, that would be about the last tool I would use if I wanted to cut something in half as lopsided, slab sided and open as a receiver. Parting tools are just not designed for interrupted cuts or for cutting non-concentric parts.

The procedure is covered in Jack Mitchell's "Gun Digest Book of Riflesmithing."

They shorten a Model 70.

The receiver on a mandrel in the lathe, "The parting of the two side rails is performed with a cut-off tool bit. The lathe should be operated at a slow speed; either first or second speed in back gear. Reid [the smith] does not cut all the way through the receiver, but leaves about 1/16-inch of material to be removed at final separation...."

It does seem that the lathe procedure would guarantee a cut that's perpendicular.

In the article, final cutting is on a power hacksaw.

flaco

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
It does seem that the lathe procedure would guarantee a cut that's perpendicular.

There are quicker ways to do it that are just as accurate. The receiver halves will be set up in a fixture using a modified bolt to lock into the lug recesses to help maintain alignment during the welding so the necessity of having the cut perfectly square would not be a big problem.

S/H:
My criticism is of the way the weld looks to a 25+ yr weldor. It was NOT ready for finishing at the point of that picture.

I also tried to print this off and it wouldn't print on my system. The article I found very interesting and educational. I just may give this a try myself. Knowing if it's metal, that I can weld it properly.

For me, it would be making the bolt work right that would be the hardest part. This article explains it well enough.

George

Since I've taught several custom gunmaking course around the country, some students ask what books they should try to find to help their career. I've always liked Jack Mitchell's RIFLESMITHING, put out by Gun Digest. A few years ago I had a booth at the NRA Convention and the editor of Gun Digest comes by. I knew that Jack Michell's book was out of print and I asked him if they were going to do another printing? He said that Gun Digest lost so much money on the first printting that they would never do a second. If you see this book sitting on a table at a gun show somewhere, stop and take a look, it will be whatever you might pay.

Mark:
Sounds like good info.

Can you provide a year of issue for it??
I'd like to have a copy.

Thanks,

George

This is the book that Mark was talking about.
Library of Congress card # 82-072293. Copyright MCMLXXXII (1982) It cost me 12.00 back then.

I love the Riflesmithing book too, and bought a copy at Barnes and Nobles 2 years ago.

I have cut actions in half several ways, and the way I do it now is to start out on a lathe with parting tool. I do this to mark where I need the cuts and use the DRO to get accurate measurements of how far my cuts are apart. I cut it part way through with the parting tool, and finish up with either hack saw or metal cutting band saw.

THen I bevel the cut ends, insert mandrel, screw down on a fixture I made, then tack it all together. After is is tacked and stable, I start welding it out.

Just purchased one off of Amazon. There's one more listed for 20 bucks + shipping.

Rojelio

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
I love the Riflesmithing book too, and bought a copy at Barnes and Nobles 2 years ago.

I have cut actions in half several ways, and the way I do it now is to start out on a lathe with parting tool. I do this to mark where I need the cuts and use the DRO to get accurate measurements of how far my cuts are apart. I cut it part way through with the parting tool, and finish up with either hack saw or metal cutting band saw.

THen I bevel the cut ends, insert mandrel, screw down on a fixture I made, then tack it all together. After is is tacked and stable, I start welding it out.

Lets see a few photos of a couple of yours.

With the proliferation of good short actions by many manufacturers since the development of the .308WCF in 1955, there is no longer any economic justification for shortening standard length Mausers. The only remaining purposes that I can think of are (1) gunsmith training exercises (2) displays of sheer gunsmithing virtuosity, and, perhaps most important, (3) fun.

Vigillinus

As far as I can remember, in the last 45 years that I have owned guns I have never ever once had an economic justification for owning any of them. In fact, every darn one lost me money.

22-

a while back I posted pics of a shortened action (still a rough work in progress) beside a Mexican and full length 98. Don't remember the topic, but I am sure you can find it with a search. I just looked at my hard drive and did not see the pics. If I have time, I will try to snap one and load it this weekend.

tnekkcc,

That looks like a great action you have, you paid a $100 to have that work done? What's it going to cost to have the rest of the project done, you know, the firing pin work, extractor and the main spring work? The follower needs to be shortening and the floorplate trimmed to fit. I don't think a standard follower spring is go to work so that needs to be addressed as well. Then there is the outside surface finish, is your gunsmith going to surface grind the outside? How about the feed rails, does the front half match the rear? On course there's all the internal surface matching and polishing, all this for a $100?

If all this work is being done for a $100, please tell us his name, so on Monday we can be standing in line at his door step waiting to place an order.

Mark,
I am an amateur gunsmith and I take the gunsmithing work that is beyond me to him. I have two lathes, a mill, a shaper, a grinder, a Dremel, a hack saw, a drill press, and a band saw.

He does work with his mill, lathe, and TIG welder that I cannot do.

He does mostly his own science projects, some bench rest rifles, and some gee whiz projects for me. He was the one who suggested this project. I am trying to follow his vein of enthusiasm. In interviewing and working with engineers for 30 years, I see plenty who cannot think, but get credentials produced by the educational system. This gunsmith never went to college, but has truly a great mind.

For $100, I dropped off two VZ24 actions, and they are to come back one shorter and one longer, but functioning.

That is probably cutting:
2 receivers
2 bolts
2 firing pins
2 extractor
2 bottom plates
2 followers
2 mag spring
2 firing pin spring
------------
= 14 cuts

Fixturing and welding the same, but extending one would be
= 28 welds

------------
= 42 operations.




At a shop rate of $40/ hour and $100 this would equate to 2.5 hours

2.5 hours/ 42 operations = cut or weld more than once every 4 minutes.


My brother has a TIG welder that cost $2k and he takes all day to weld a bolt for me.

So it is obvious to me, that I am getting subsided gunsmithing.

If I went to him and asked for a rib on my barrel to look like jewelry and make me the bell of the ball, he would probably soak me for $1k, just like you probably would.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Apparantly some posts have been deleted.....

Not by me.. which posts are missing and I'll see if another mod took them off, or of the poster removed them
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
I'm interested in seeing how you will handle the extractor.

that part may be easier than we would first think...

springfield extractor

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Apparantly some posts have been deleted.....

Not by me.. which posts are missing and I'll see if another mod took them off, or of the poster removed them
jeffe

My apologies Jeffe,
It was not at all my intention to imply that there was anything inappropriate in the deletion of the posts. They was in reference to parting off the action in a lathe. I suspect the deletions was totally voluntary and above board.

Fitting a Brownells Mauser extractor blank is the least fun on any gunsmithing I can think of.

Shortening an and already fitting extractor looks easy: weld on a blob at the rear and machine to the bolt body radius.

Lengthening an already fitting extractor also looks easy, if the weld does not break.

The Turkish Mausers made 1903 - 1905 in Oberndorff in Germany, have brazing on the extractor in 5% of the rifles. I assume that this was a field repair in Turkey. They still seem to work, so may extractors do not need to be all that strong.

Tnekkcc

I disagree with the number of welds. I doubt the person would reweld a firing pin spring. for the shorter one he would probably cut the end off and leave it that way. For the longer one I bet he either buys or winds a longer spring, as welding a firing pin spring would be a foolish waste of time.

What does "all day" mean. Are you saying it takes your brother 8 hours to weld a bolt handle?

again - springfield extractor ..



this image looks like there's enough to grind off, but the root looks pretty good. on this type of weld, i would rather the weld be 100% proud, so it can be removed to an even finish.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Tnekkcc

I disagree with the number of welds. I doubt the person would reweld a firing pin spring. for the shorter one he would probably cut the end off and leave it that way. For the longer one I bet he either buys or winds a longer spring, as welding a firing pin spring would be a foolish waste of time.

What does "all day" mean. Are you saying it takes your brother 8 hours to weld a bolt handle?

You are right, the number of welds is approximate.

"All day" means "all day" with my brother slow poke perfectionist.
1) eat breakfast
2) clean the garage
3) put Rush on the radio
4) Cut
5) break for lunch
6) die grind work
7) sand blast
8) bolt in the fixture
9) Weld
10) Re tell his welding instructor's jokes
11) die grind
12) Consider starting over
13) Complain that I am always leaving before he is done, cause I'm late for dinner.

Just came up from the shop where I dug my project out. The longer action has the regular extractor fitted, the short one has no extractor at this time. It would appear without measuring that the standard would fit albiet look goofy. Maybe that's why it's not on there.
When I did this, many moons ago, I annealled both actions first. I don't know if this was necessary.I cut with a 12" cutoff saw. The cutting/welding would be the easy part. The weld needs to be proud as has been said to allow surface blending without pits. I welded inside and out with the action clamped in various jigs. Neither of these is perfect inside as you can still see evidence of welding but on the outside you can't tell. I must have welded/ground the stamp off the side, but the lion head is still sharp (drilled and tapped so not so pretty) Wish now I would have tried to make up some integral bases.I will attempt a revival of this and finish the mag boxes and floorplates.The short one is nearly done. A follower spring will have to be made up as well.This is a lot of time spent, started when I was young and thought working 14 hr. a day was fun.Back to the shop on a rainy day, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
again - springfield extractor ..



this image looks like there's enough to grind off, but the root looks pretty good. on this type of weld, i would rather the weld be 100% proud, so it can be removed to an even finish.

jeffe

jeffe,

Have you ever put an 03 extractor on a Mauser bolt? If so, how did you modify it to fit?

The 03 extractor is way too short from the collar socket forward to allow the claw to reach over the bolt nose. It doesn’t even come close.

I really like the angle head grinder marks skittering all over the magazine box, I'm sure that got polished out to a nice 320gt for that $100 as well...............Whatever. What was it shortened to? 7.62 x 39? or 45 apc.
Timan

There’s a good reason why Earl Schieb will “paint any car for $99.95!â€

If you read the entire thread you will see that the fellow doing the welding was to get it funtioning, the grinding and polishing was the owners baby.If one had the jigs made up for clamping for welding I think one could cut and weld only in 3 hr. or less. There would be at least a day of fitting and finishing.It's taken me 20 yr. and still not done. Mark