Hello everyone i'm new to the site and have been reading alot of info here in the past few days.
I have a few questions for you all if you don't mind.

I have recently purchased a Pattern-14 Enfield action and am wanting to build(have built) a rifle. I have been leaning towards the 45-70 Govt. for caliber and would like to know if it is feaseable. I have taken a few meauserments and it looks to me that very few if any modifications would be needed to the over bolt or action. The bolt head appears to be large enough to accept the cartridge and the OAL should not be a problem even with the longer ogived bullets. I think the only modification needed would be to the follower. Am I on the right track or is it possible to do without large amounts of work?
I was thinking that since the P-14/P-17 action is said to be strong enough to handle magnum pressures that it would handle the more modern 45-70 loadings without trouble.
I thank you for your comments and your time.

you got a great action to build on, don't waste it on a 45/70. .. i have a nice 1917 eddystone in .416 taylor, a 1917 remington enfield in .300 H&H, and tip burns is building a .505 gibbs on my p14, i picked up here on AR...and ive still got 3 more donor actions.... i've picked up a couple of boyds stocks, unfinished walnut for less than $100 each... ive had good luck with them... i used a pepper laminate on my .416 taylor.... it turned out nice....on the other hand, several .303 smle's have been converted very sussessfully to 45/70

I appreciate the advice on the larger caliber, however I feel the 45-70 will fit my needs for what I am wanting.
I have looked at the Boyds stocks and was going to ask about them as well so you have answered that question for me, thanks. I will try and get one ordered soon. Were they hard to fit and require alot of time in sanding?

Palladin8,

I too would try to steer you toward something besides a 45/70 for you P-14. That action really deserves a better performing round than what you want. If you like .458 caliber bullets get a Lott or Winny chambering.

I have two Eddystones one in 30-06 the other in 303. Neither will ever become 45/70s.

I'd ask that you reconsider. However it's your moneya nd action, so go make what you'd like! That will be the best rifle of all!

boyd's turned screwy on sales a year or so ago.... decided to sell thru "dealers'... instead of direct sales.... look on the ebay or gunbroker and you'll find them.... i saw a beautiful stock made on a richards microfit inlet also.... there's lots of options....great american gunstocks, richards, stocky's...are just a few that come to mind....as far as it being a "drop-in", it wasn't... i had an jon valicek do my stock, money well spent... 16 line checkering, decelerator recoil pad, crossbolts, supergrade sling swivel.... all on a laminate stock....

Thank you for the replies.

What would it take to convert the action to the larger caliber cartridges? Other than the obvious of the follower and possibly a new magazine all together, would the action it's self need to be machined in any way? Would you all have any recommendations for some one to do the work in the Las Vegas area?

the p17 action is a 30-06 lenght, and it needed nothing for my .416 taylor... other than tip burns's magic on making it feed.... the action can be "cleaned up" by trimming the ears off, opening the action up, machining the action for scope bases.... remember, the remington 30 evolved from this action....i had tip install the cock-on-opening kit on the bolt, not necessary, but something else that i like...as far as the magazine is concerned, the floorplate might have to be changed, modified, to make it feed... on my .505 gibbs, it's planned for a center stack, not staggered....

Guns and Ammo Mag did a story on the 14/17 decade ago or so. Brits came up with the design, patterned after Mauser to replace SMLE. Cartridge was a .270 (7mm???) approx that was long and tear drop shaped. WW I got in the way and the 14's were ordered in .303 Brit and "hurry up."

Uncle Sam wanted Springfields (ha, ha there was a war on) and took the rifle in '06 as the M1917.

Mr. Ackley didn't seem to think the strength was greatly exceeding other mil surplus, but equal in every way and big and heavy. Thus the popularity for the big boomers where the weight helps to spread out the recoil. I believe Mr. Weatherby developed his magnums in a 17. By the way, the .303 bolt/P14 is the right size for the magnum (300 H&H size, etc.) rim without change-- magazine needs work. Plenty for any modern cartridge. .45/70 is a bit old and would require bolt modification. [And mine KICKS much. Siam Mauser.] .405 Winchester is the .303 case blown out straight and a trifle longer... magazine work should be minimum.

There were three contractors... so to speak. Winchester. Remington. And Eddystone Arsenal, division of Baldwin Locomotive works, Eddystone PA, owned by Remington. Reportedly the steel used in the Eddystones was not as friendly to the tightly screwed in barrels and rebarreling has been know to crack the receiver ring. Then you have a wall hanger, nothing more. Any auto machine shop can check for cracks with Magna Flux or other system. Couple home kits too I guess.

So you can go for any Mauser rim up... .22/250 (ha, ha-- need to block the magazine A LOT)... to .460 Weatherby. Since p14 is ready for the magnum rim I would be inclined to the 300 H&H or .375 H&H ... Much stronger cases. .300 Winchester would work fine. .338 WCF. But .45/70 is an option. .38/56 Imp almost equals the .375 H&H factory and is the .375 bullet on the .45/70 case. Many options. Your bucks, your call. LUCK.

If you want 45-70 performance, an easier conversion would be 450 Marlin or a 458 loaded light.

Bruce

I hadn't thought of the the .450 Marlin as an option. I'll be honest I have never shot anything larger than a .340 Weatherby without a Muzzle Break. I have shot a .50BMG, 30-378 but both had muzzle breaks on them so recoil was not bad at all. The .340 wasn't as bad as I was thinking it was going to be but it's not something I would want to sit at a bench and shoot for a range session. I own a .300WM in a Remington Sendero so the recoil on that one is not bad at all even with the 200gr SMKs I enjoy shooting. The worst recoiling gun I own is my 12ga with 3" mag slugs. I don't know that I would particularly enjoy shooting a .458Win Mag with full house loads. I did look in the reloading manuals and saw that they can be loaded down to mid 45-70 range. And checking the recoil calculator it appears it would be around what my .300WM is. The Price difference between the 450 Marlin Brass and .458 is minimal so I guess I could go upto the .458 WM.

With all this being said the .458 WM appears to be to large for the magazine of the P-14. So I would have to get one from a M-17. What else will be needed in order to make it fit and feed?
I am sure the follower will have to be replaced as well. Is this something that could be purchased or is it going to need fabrication?

The action has the rear sight and ears removed. It has been drilled and tapped with two holes up front and one on the rear due to the "duck pond".

the eddystone that was used to build my .416 taylor had the "duck pond" welded up, ground, and then drilled/tapped to remington 30 dimensions.... the p14 action i'm using to build my .505 gibbs is plenty big enough for your .458 wm....the gibbs is lots bigger then the win mag.. suggest that you call/talk to tip burns in canyon lake, tx... he's very knowledgeable about what can be done to these actions.. and he's got a few openings to start some new work....

It's relatively easy to fill up the duck pond with some dissimilar material such as silver, gold, ebony, ivory, horn, rosewood, etc and then engrave or otherwise embellish it. Another treatment is to incorporate a peep sight into the hole, could be folding and/or have windage adjustment incorporated into it.

If you're gonna weld on it, you might consider adding metal onto the top(s) of the rear upper tang at the same time, to try to raise the line of the wrist. The deep curve of the rear upper tang is one of the downsides of the looks of these actions, and IMO can be greatly improved by raising the top edges at the rear.

Like Paul Simon says in the song,"..there are fifty ways.."
Regards, Joe

The 450 marlin gets my vote. I have a P14 in .458x2 American, basically the wildcat version of the .450 marlin. It is excellent.

All you need to do is heat up the back of the action in the pond with a torch untill a braz rodd will flow into it and fill it up with rodd then shape it as you like.

or you can use a savage 110 base and machine a slot front to back into the rear bridge and press fit the rear base into the slot and attach with screws. LIKE THIS

by the by I have one of these in 45/70 and would not realy like to part with it built one for a buddy abd he has huge sucess with it on brush country whitetail and pigs.

you will need the p14 magazine staggered for rimmed case but I like to use a 1917 bolt and oppen it for the exact rim dia the claw is closer to the face so it ejects better. it is also wider.

thank you for all the information guys. I am trying to decide on the caliber now.
I really like the idea of the brazing rod as it's something that I could easily do with my limited gunsmithing ability. I have also been looking for pictures online of large caliber P-14/17 rifles so I can have a few more ideas of what I am wanting it to look like. What barrel contour would you recommend for the .458 diameter? My target weight for this rifle would be around 10 pounds. I don't want it to be to heavy as I have a few rifles that are and they spend more time at home than in the field or range.

pack the front end in wet sand before you heat up the back. do the heat thing before you grind the ears off.

a standard light sporter from krieger is great to carry and this action weighs a ton

I have one that has been all done up. It is a P-14 done in 7MM Rem Mag....

I have a p-17 that is becoming a .308 Norma Mag as we speak.

I would post a picture but I don't know how.

Crusher the action I have has already had the ears ground off and has been drilled and tapped for a scope. What would you recommend for bluing remover as well as surface rust. There are a few small spots of surface rust in a few areas of the action.

An Enfield P14 I have which was modified by BSA appears to have had the pond filled with a fitted block of steel soldered into place & then ground to contour. Its a perfect fit with only a very slim line of silver around it, maybe silver solder but I should think that Brownells Hi Force solder would do as long as the fit was good & would have the advantage of less heat. You would still need to protect the front ring but I would imagine packing with wet rags would suffice for this application.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
It's relatively easy to fill up the duck pond with some dissimilar material such as silver, gold, ebony, ivory, horn, rosewood, etc and then engrave or otherwise embellish it. Regards, Joe

Nice idea! A piece of matching wood from the same blank as the stock would be an interesting visual effect on an iron-sighted rifle where it was highly visible.

quote:

Originally posted by spitfire_er:
I have one that has been all done up. It is a P-14 done in 7MM Rem Mag....

I have a p-17 that is becoming a .308 Norma Mag as we speak.

I would post a picture but I don't know how.

I would love to see your rifle. Actually I would like to see pics of anyones rifles that they have converted to big bores. Maybe it could give me some ideas on what I would like to do to mine.

Thanks for the Pics Crusher.

I just picked up another action that had been modified for a belted magnum. I has had more work done to it than the pics had shown. The charger bridge has been milled off and the back of the reciever has been rounded as well. Looks like the bottom metal has been changed around to remove the hump. The bolt has been straightend and has also been converted to cock on opening. There is also a Timney trigger installed. They said it was a "Eddystone" but when I pulled the scope rings off there are the RE for Remington. So even if I spent a little more money than I had wanted I have an action now that I can almost just drop a barrel in and go to town. So with the hump removed and the bolt handle straightend out would I still need a 1917/P-14 stock or would it fit into say a mauser inlet?

the eddystone was madde by remington at eddystone ya know r. e. marked abb for remington arms is r. a. I dont like the straightened handles it puts me out of position for follow up " hand to far foreward" stop and think why they made it like they did . it does look nice straight though.

the p14 is way bigger than a mauser it is its own inlett. there are stocks available for straight bottom metal. they are a fun project

there is a pile of file to make this thing feed right. the the big hammer work is done you are now down to surgery.

I cycled a few 300 win mag rounds through it and it loaded them pretty well as long as I brought the bolt all the way to the rear. The last round didn't want to chamber all the time but would if you fiddled with it. It seems the follower is a bit short and if lengthend out it might work a little better. I was just hoping that the stock pattern was similar to the mauser action so that would open up the different manufactures as well as models they make.

Ok I am a little closer to getting this project off the ground. I am thinking i'll have Douglas do the barrel work and fitting it to the action and i'll end up trying to stock it. I have a few more questions for you all. I really do appreciate all your help and replies you have given me some good suggestions.

What barrel length would you recommend for a rifle in 458win? I am trying to keep the rifle to a max of 10 pounds and I would like the rifle to also be fairly quick handling. I held a Ruger Alaskan the other day and really liked the way it felt and how quick I could bring it up to my shoulder. I am not exactly sure how long their barrels were i'm guess 20"- 22"? The Ruger reminds me of a carbine and I kind of like it.
Would a 22" barrel be a good comprimise?
I do not see an African safari in my future anytime soon and the only "dangerous" game that I could see myself hunting would be bear or wild boar. The wild boar would be more likely since there are not many Bear here in Nevada, not that it matters because I can't draw a tag for any animal to save my life.

21 7/8 "

Crusher,

What stocks do you have for your rifles in the pics? I am leaning towards a synthetic stock for durability and adverse weather. I might be going to work in northern Washington State so I think the Synthetic would be a better choice.

BTW I spoke with a gunsmith this weekend who said he has worked on the P-14 actions before and has converted them to other calibers. He also has a .458Win reamer so it would save a little money. I have seen some of his work and I am impressed so I think I will have him get started straight away.

I use the mpi but wood properly treated is ok for damp. to remove the blueing just pollish it off.
nothing wrong with the p-14 it just needs a mag box extractor and ejector that you can make from the 1917 parts.. the 14 box is for rimmed cases so is staggered front to back the 17 box is straight the 17 extractor is made closer to the face and is wider and the ejector is a better shape for positive ejection.

I got a stock for my 1917 from Great American Gunstocks. It will be replacing the current stock below on my 9.3x64; going to give it a more classic look (ebony forend, red recoil pad, etc).



Good choice on the 458 WM. Just stay away from the African Hunting section once you get it built or the next thing you know you'll be on your way to Africa with the 458 to hunt the big 5.

Thanks for the info guys.

Sevens where did you get the stock pictured? It looks nice.
I am looking for a stock that does not have the Monte Carlo cheek piece since I am left handed and would not be using it. All the wood stocks I have seen have them so if I ordered one I guess I will have to request that it not be added. I am also considering a Laminate stock. It's what the gunsmith recommended to hold up to the recoil of the larger bore rifles.

As for the follower and magazine box I do need to find a good follower. The current one is the P-14 that has been modified up front to allow the wider cartridge. Problem is that it is not long enough in the larger M-17 magazine box and kind of rattles around. Is there someone out there that makes custom followers? My smith said years ago there was a place in Oklahoma but it's been several years ago and he can't remember the name of the company that does. Would a M-17 follower work with the larger cartridges if modified? Or would it be better to have one fabricated? He suggested that I find the parts as it would be cheaper if I did the leg work.

Palladin,

The stock currently on the rifle is custom. I was given the rifle by a friend. The stock is of his own design and finishing. He also had a 500 Jeffery built on the Remington 30 Express action (Civilian model of the 1917) which has killed more elephants than I could imagine.

The stock I got to replace the current one is from Great American Gunstocks and it doesn't have the Monet Carlo cheekpiece, albeit does have a cheekpiece. You could always just remove the cheekpiece though by sanding it down.

I'm not expert on the matter, but if you would prefer a classic style stock over a laminate, why not just have crossbolts added to the stock and glass bed the action? You can even hide a few internal crossbolts inside the glass bedding to further improve the stock's strength. Jack Lott used to use internal cross bolts only on his proprietary cartridge, the 458 Lott, which will rattle a stock more than the 458 WM.

Dear Palladin,
I have done quite a few P-14s into 45-70s. Also into lots of wildcats like the 45-70 necked to 375 and such. A little work is required on the feeding ramp area to function reliably but nothing major. There are a lot of stock makers that will happily supply you with about anything you want--Left Handed, with/out cheekpiece! Mannlicher, Roll-Over--You name it! Most, like Royal Arms and Richards are not expensive.For what it`s worth? My .02 says build your 45-70! Hell!! With the P-14 action you can load the 45-70 so stiff it`ll slap your shoulder blades together and kill anything on this planet with the right bullet placement and bullet construction. Load the case down and shoot sage rats with lead slugs!! Near miss you still kill the little buggers. A real miss ? You make them a new home. If you want a Magnum build one but your first question was the 45-70. Awfully hard to beat a cartridge that is as old as the venerable 45-70 and still has such an army of admirers. I built a 50 Alaskan a few years ago for my mailman on a Siamese Mauser. A few shots and it was on Gun Broker. I had MANY inquiries about the possibilities of a 45-70 re-barrel. It did sell as the 50 eventually.
Aloha, Mark