What, if any, are the practical advantages/disadvantages between the factory 2 piece bottom metal versus a 1 piece bottom metal offered from Williams/Blackburn/Hill etal?

Cosmetics, weight, design, function etc.

Any ideas/opinions/suggestions are welcome.

Thanks!

A one piece trigger guard/floor plate will result in a far more stable platform for getting a good, even front and rear torque and alignment between the receiver and the bedding area.

It can be somewhat compared to using two bolts with washers as opposed to replacing the two washers with a solid piece of steel that runs the entire length and exerts upwards pressure over the that entire area when tightened rather than just the area covered by the two washers.

Rick

Williams bottom metal is not designed for custom rifle building. There is no draft on the metal, the shape of the bow leaves a bit to be disired etc. If you want to swap out your factory two piece bottom metal then Williams metal is probably what your looking for.

The Blackburn and SunnyHill metal is designed for custom rifle projects. Finely crafted, drafted for ease of inletting and if memory serves the magazine box is integral to the bottom metal.

I've done winchesters with both two piece and one piece bottom metal - I didnt find either one harder to deal with. With one piece you eliminate the middle screw but there are varying opinions on whether or not that is a good idea. I have never found it to be an accuracy issue.

Just this mans opinion

Bill,
i think the williams metal has a draft, but that's just what i read in the midway catalog...

comparing the williams 1 piece to the 2 piece isn't fair.. the williams is a carefully made, cnc, inspected and subject to rejection component. The 2 piece, iirc, is a stamping.

you are correct that the blackburn is a higher grade... then again, I still don't think it's "fair" to compare a single HIGH VOLUME component that winchester controls the cost (at least the purchase price) of, rather than being set for by the maker for the trade.

In all honesty, I think ted makes a great product.. I DO think he's 50% too high on his cost. No trying to take away a fella's right to make money, just stating that his prices keep ME from buying his product.... The (old) numrich 70$ ober. style trigger grades are of fairly low quality.. the new ones appear to be much better.... and for the same price.

If Matt is reading this, 250 list, 200 to the trade would be a TOP price... and I think you'ld get ALOT more sold in the 200-175 price range than you would in the 350-300 range.. I bet you'd even more than offset the loss in profit on the revenue...

I KNOW i'ld rather buy 2 at 175 than NONE at 350.

jeffe

Jeffe,

Hate to disagree with you but I've used two of them on rifle projects. Neither had a draft of ANY sort.

Bill,
I can believe that.. like i said, I just read it in the midway catalog...

Rusty and I both had safari express rifles (I sold mine) and I had the 2 piece... his is far better looking,.. enough, in fact, that I thought about getting one

jeffe

Thank you gentlemen for all your comments. Please keep them coming!

I don't care for the one-piece units, and I will not employ them on any project I have built. On the Model 70, especially the pre-64 Model 70s, the guard-screw hole spacing can vary quit a bit, often between .010 and .030" or even more. Sometimes the holes are a little crooked as well.

If you use the two-piece (actually three-piece) type, you can make up for these discrepancies by altering the length of the floorplate itself. By going this route, you can make the latch-up between floorplate and triggerguard absolutely perfect, and also better eliminate unsightly gaps between the flooplate and the magazine box, as well as that portion of the stock.

If you go with the one-piece setup, you can often shoot yourself in the foot in terms of fit as well as accuracy. If the magazine box binds because of a discrepancy between screw-hole spacing and the hole spacing of the bottommetal, you won't be able to hit a sow in the ass as far as accuracy goes, and the only way to deal with the problem will be to possibly ream out on of the holes, change the screw head counter-bore, etc., etc. It's better to avoid potential hassles of this sort right off the bat.

Twenty years ago, I bought a one-piece Pete Grisel assembly for a pre-64 Model 70 action that I had built into a .270. This unit was very nicely-made, and milled from one single piece of steel, except for the floorplate itself and release button. In theory it should have worked perfectly, but as beautiful as that unit was, it fought accuracy all the way. It did NOT properly match the hole spacing of the action (I measured it myself), and it created a terrible bind. If you backed off just one of the screws, you'd feel the whole receiver move in the opposite direction. If you applied lamp black to the back of the locking lugs and worked the bolt with the rifle fully assembled, only one lug bore (maybe 70% contact). But if you removed the barreled-action for the stock and repeated the same exercise, both lugs provided near 100% contact. That rifle didn't shoot worth a damn, even though the inletting and bedding was really nice.

So the one-piece stuff, in theory, SHOULD work perfectly, but in the real world they often don't, and sadly, a lot of the gunwriters who use to beat up on Winchester in print for not going with the one-piece unit across the board really didn't know what they were talking about after all.

Ted Blackburn and Tom Burgess still wisely produce the "two-piece" style, and I own specimens of each. The Burgess unit looks the best to my eyes, and I like it's quality better than anything else, but they are hard to get. Blackburn's is still excellent, and David Miller uses this unit (he special orders them and alters them to his specs) exclusively. D'Arcy also prefers the "two-piece" design for the very reasons I mentioned, and he goes with units from Tom Burgess. Actually, I think most professional riflemakers prefer the "two-piece" design. To me, it's the only way to go.........

AD

Most of my guns that I have built or partially built, have Blackburn one piece bottom metal and I have had no problems with them and anything that doesn't shoot and inch with 3 shots won't stay around here long, and I prefer 5 shot groups at that same measure....Just a thing with me for no particular reason.

I have been told that the stiffer one piece bottom metal makes for a more accurate gun, depends on who you talk to..It makes little difference to me as long as the gun performs, the rest is gun talk and twaddle...

Thanks Allen. Very cogent explanation. You just saved me from making a mi$take.
JCN

Matt-

I know it is always hard to predict, but how long to you expect it to be before those Oberndorf assemblies are available?

I just recently got one of your "regular" model 70 one-piece affairs for my MRC 1999, and boy if that one in the pics were available I would've snapped that up in a heartbeat.

By the way, I can't help but think that Mauser's are one-piece affairs, aren't they? Alot of regular guys get these old things to shoot pretty darn good on an almost daily basis. I can definitely see where crooked action screws will be a never ending battle with a one-piece guard though. Interesting thread!

Bob

Matt, I have scanned through your website but there isn't a listing for a two piece floorplate/trigger guard assembly. Is it something I would need to special order?



Allen, to your knowledge with respect to the Blackburn two piece bottom metal (trigger guard and floorplate) is it still being made? I have the most current price listing from Blackburn with no listing of a 2 piece unit, only 1 piece (integral triggerguard and floorplate).



Also for clarification Allen, what do you mean by "3 piece?" I am assuming that means the floorplate, trigger guard, and magazine box?



Again many thanks gentlemen and keep the comments coming!

Also, and this is coming from Winchester so it might not be true. But I called them up asking about this, because I was at work not home and heard that the winchester m70 had the two piece and might not be all steel, and I was wanting to send it off for engraving. The guy on the phone told me that the triggerguard was synthetic, not steel.

But take this with salt, he said and I can't verify because I got home and was pleasantly surprised to find out that not only was my triggerguard metal, I had one piece bottom metal!! :-) (then again, my gunsmith did comment that Winchester must have farmed it out because the whole thing is pretty good)

Red

By "three-piece", I mean the triggerguard, floorplate, and floorplate hinge (the front action screw goes through the hinge). These are the three main pieces of the "two-piece" design, but of course there's the release/latch button, latch button spring, latch button pin, and floorplate hinge pin. So now we have the "two-piece" design up to not only three but seven pieces!

I have never seen a Blackburn assembly for the Model 70 that was not of this design and did not utilize the middle action screw.

AD

Pick it up, that'll tell you whether it is steel or not.

Chuck

Okay, one is never too old to learn new stuff...

Never heard the term "drafted" before - except in reference to a few acquaintances in the late sixties.

Could someone please explain this term as it relates to bottom metal?

Thanks.

Jim,
it means "undercut at a defined angle".. in that the OUTSIDE of the guard is wider than the INSIDE (in reference to inletting) and this difference is on an angle. This allows on to get very close on the inside bit, and press/sand/carve/voodoo the rest of the way in for a perfect fitting.

jeffe

Matt,
I'm patiently waiting in line for one of your M70 LA Obendorf Style Guards...

Regards, Matt.

Btw, I need to call John Ricks and explain to him why your one piece guard is unsuitable for a Custom Rifle. Hell I was extremely satisfied until I read this post...(grin)

Matt, again, if the hole spacing of the action and the hole spacing of the triggerguard/flooplate assembly match up correctly, the one-piece unit will work. Evidently with your rifle the measurements do indeed match up, or else Mr. Ricks made some minor alterations to the bottommetal to make it so.

But if the measurements don't match up, the "one-piece" unit can really mess you up.

ANY binding of the action which creates receiver stress will cause serious accuracy problems, (i.e.,fliers, etc.), and any portion of the rifle (scopemounts, bedding, bottometal, etc.) that cases receiver stress will foul up said accuracy, and even feeding.

AD

The biggest problem that most run into is the fact that they are trying to make the mag box and trigger guard integral with each other. This will greatly increase the chance of a bind like you've mentioned. If the mag box is left as factory, I've never seen a bind problem when bedded correctly.
Winchester's screws are .250 in diameter and the nominal through hole dimensions for our bottom metal is .268, so you are allowed some room to play with, but again, with the factory mag box design I've put up hundreds and to this day I've never had a customer tell me they had problems in this area either.
The middle guard screw's only purpose in life is to hold down the front of the trigger guard, due to the fact that it's not connected to the hinge on a standard 3-piece design. Eliminating that screw decreases the chance of mag box binding, thus greatly improving accuracy as it pertains to consistency.
We offer the three piece design for those who are wanting to put a higher grade of factory components on their rifle without having to do inletting work, but we reccomend the one-piece system first for the reasons that has already been mentioned.
The three piece design can suffer from many problems, but the biggest is the fact that it's alignment with the trigger guard is dependent on not only the machine work and hole positions, but also the bedding. I've seen dozens of factory Winchesters with gaps between the floorplate and trigger guard that were in access of .050". This should really never exceed about .010". This excessive gap is what causes these floorplates to fly open under recoil or heavy handling.

Triggerguard1,
You would probably do well to just state your case without degrading Ted Blackburn, Jim Weisner, Sunny Hill or Tom Burgess's work, all of whom have excellent products on the market that I have used for years, by the very fact that you did that, I will now never use your product, I don't know about others.

Matt, the bedding has to be right no matter which design you employ.

AD

Allen,

First of all...you don't have to call me "Mr. Rick"...Sir Rick would be just fine

I haven't made any adjustments (minor or major) to the trigger guards on my rifles.

My "modern" rifles are three Remington 700's...one built by McMillan Bros. and two built by Robar. All three have McMillan M40 stocks and are very precisely and properly bedded. All three use D.D. Ross "one piece" ( eight piece... if you count the plate, latch,latch spring, pins and two guard screws!) trigger guards. I always use a torque wrench when tightening the guard screws and I am always very careful to assure that they are being tightened gradually, in proper sequence, and without creating any bind.

I am in the process of building another 700 using a wood stock and I have ordered a trigger guard from Matt to use on this one and am still beating the bushes trying to find a steel, checkered trap door buttplate for it. I am going to try out Darrell Holland's new "screw within a screw" pillar bedding system when I bed this rifle to see how well it works. It sounds like a great idea...but so did joining the Marine Corps at the time!

I am not a custom gunsmith nor a mechanical engineer but I do believe that a properly bedded and properly assembled rifle using a "one piece" trigger guard with two screws is inherently more stable than ones using "two piece" guards. It would also appear that most accuracy freaks would tend to agree with this.

As far as the "look" of the guard is concerned that is purely a personal preference that has nothing, that I am aware of, to do with the function of the unit. Personally, I don't like the "egg shaped" look in a trigger guard bow but many others seem to prefer that look.

I will differ to others that are more knowledgable on this topic than I... but I believe that "drafting" the sides of trigger guards is for the ease of inletting only, and serves no mechanical function or purpose beyond that.

Having said all this...the vast majority of all this crap makes very little practical difference when it comes to shooting and enjoying your rifles. Use whatever parts you like as long as you like them and they work for you on your rifles.

Rick

Rick, I wasn't referrring to you in my post. I was responding to Matt's post about his rifle that was built by John Ricks. The "Mr. Ricks" monicker was in reference to him.

AD

Sorry, Pardner...my misunderstanding!

Rick

Having hijacked a different thread to comment on (bitch about) some communication problem with my Williams extractors, I thought it only right to do so again now that they have arrived. Very, very nice work.

triggerguard1



Is there any mauser bottom metal on table? I would like to see one soon. How are the action work going, I guess should be almost done





Atkinson-

Stop pestering, please. Each has to make up their own mind. Please explain how Matt's post is "degrading the other makers". I know all of us has preferences about who we will deal and won't because of various reasons



Cheers

/ JOHAN