I grew up using a savage 30-30 bolt gun. And have since 'retired' it. I don't want to beat it up anymore and I have kids that are going to be hunting soon,and owuld like to pass the rifle down. Parts are scarcer than hens teeth and its just not worth it to me to ruin the rifle anymore. I really would like another bolt 30-30, but would like something a little more upscale than the savage rifles. I'd like to build a new rifle around my specs for the old 30-30 but am unsure what action to procure? Any ideas?

Thanks for your time.

NHbwana

You might look for a Winchester 54 in 30-30 either a nice one or one that could be restocked.

Remington 788 or Savage 340, see a couple a year show up at shows around here in 30-30.

I have pondered the same question many times, and have yet to come up with a good answer, for a bolt action. I used a Remington 788 years ago as my favorite deer rifle, and would like to find a replacment for it too.

I passed up a good deal on a Winchester 54 in 30-30 once.

Anyway, there may be some military action from some country which used a rimmed cartridge that may be convertable, but the cost would be significant. Some of thse actions are not very strong, and parts are scarce.

So my solution was first to buy one of the CZ 527s in 7.62x39, and experiment with handloads. Some folks claim great accuracy with .308 30-30 bullets, but I used only .311 bullets so far. I have been as satisfied with the rifle had it been in 30-30.

So, based on that experiment, I recently bought a Ruger 77 mkII blued rifle also chambered in 7.62x39. It was pretty expensive, and I haven't shot it yet. I think it will be even more satisfactory than the CZ, because the magazine is not detachable, and the bullets stack staggered rather than single stack. I doubt it will be more accurate than the CZ, as that would be very improbable.

So, all I can tell you is my experience and my opinion based on that. Given the same dellima I would still make the same choice of going with a cartridge that is rimless for a bolt action even if I got something chambered in .308 Winchester, and loaded it down a bit.

Bear in mind, the 7.62x39 cartridge is designed to feed, and it does feed very well, since it has good taper from back to front. It is an inherently well designed cartridge, for its purpose, but like the 30-30, we sometimes stretch that purpose by using it for deer size game, at distances too great for the energy the cartridge can produce. Also many .311 bullets not specifically designed for the 7.62x39 are too tough for the velocity the cartridge is capable of.

If you handload, and don't mind a custom barrel, you could rebarrel some suitable action using a barrel with .308 bore, chambered for the 7.62x39. It's not too uncommon. Then you could use 150 gr 30-30 bullets, but I wouldn't do it because many folks have claimed that .308 diameter bullets shoot plenty accurate from the standard .311 bore of the 7.62x39.

I studied the Savage action once, and found that the bolt locks up with only one lug, and I figured that couldn't be good. Otherwise I would think the Savage would be a good choice. The lugs on the 788 are toward the rear of the bolt. Natually, the CZ and the Ruger have two opposing lugs, located at the front of the bolt, and the actions have a properly placed recoil lug under the receiver, both of which will contribute to accuracy and safety, and longevity of the brass.

The reasons I bought the CZ and Ruger in 7.62x39 is because the cartridges is fun to play with, but if I didn't already have a rifle in 308 Winchester, I would buy that first over the 7.62x39, because the 308 is more suitable for hunting deer and practically anything bigger than a coyote. One could always easily download the 308 to 30-30 ballistics, just for the heck of it, and still have the full 308 ballistics when wanted or needed. The 308 Winchester is just far more practical, and the 7.62x39 more a specialty rifle - a little too big for small game, and a little lacking on big game. Anyway, having a 308 made up, or buying one already made would save yourself a lot of trouble and money, and give the same or better satisfaction as the 30-30 would.

If you want something new, and perhaps odd, look at the new Thompson Center bolt action rifle chambered in their new 30 caliber cartridge, which is similar to the older 300 Savage round. Heck there are probably lots of old used 300 savage bolt actions available.

If I just had to have a 30-30, I would choose the Thompson G2 contender, or maybe the Encore.

KB

i see the savages in 30/30 in pawn shops for less that $200.... several in corpus christi at automatic pawn for like $179, i think....

I picked up a Stevens 325, basically a 340 with a spoon handle, for $99 recently. Found a factory peep sight for another $10. $109 for a rifle with peep sight. The metal was darn near new, the stock had some wear. The Rem 788 would be my choice if the rifle HAD to be scoped but you can scope a 340 too.

The cz550 carbine in 7.62x39 is roughly equivilent.

Guys,

Like I said I have a savage. The whole point is to find an action suitable for something a little more upscale. I know all about the cz527. My brother owns one in the commie round..and its a fine rifle. Ugly as sin in my book with that hideous mag sticking out of it. I am basically looking for a small mauser action or some such. Something that can look elegant and nice. Maybe the winchester is the one to look for. The 788 is ugly to, as is the savage. If I am going to incur the cost of a custom rifle..I'm not starting with an ugly action.

NHbwana

A skilled riflesmith might be able to get a Siamese Mauser to work with the 30-30. They've been done in 30-40, 303 Brit, 7.62x54R, all rimmed rounds. Rim dia on the 30-30 is .506" versus .540" on the 303, .036" less.

Move up to the 30-06 which uses the same .308 caliber bullets as the 30-30 and load your own ammo so you can load milder loads. In doing so the whole world opens up as far as actions go.

quote:

Originally posted by NHbwana:
Guys,

Like I said I have a savage. The whole point is to find an action suitable for something a little more upscale.

Gold plate it.

There is/was a very popular IBS Hunter Class cartridge known as the 30 Aardvark. It is based on the 30-30 case. In order to make this case function in a modern bolt gun, rims were turned down to 7.62x39/PPC size. You only do it once and the brass lasts forever. My point is, don't make the rifle fit the brass, make the brass fit the rifle.

There were very few bolt actions, especially repeaters, designed or adapted for the .30-30. Those already mentioned are the majority.

Anything else will cost you dearly. You want upscale but haven't said what you are willing to pay.

Since you've nixed the Savages, which shoot real well, and the 788 which shoots even better, a nice Marlin levergun would be my choice in a .30-30. Just about any bolt action can be converted to .30-30 however, most will end up as single shots unless you are willing to pay through the nose to have slanted bottom metal made.

I'd probably look around for a one of the 700's they made in .300 savage or just buy a .308 or .30-06 and either handload to .30-30 levels or use the factory reduced power loads.

Years ago I built a 325 into a fullstocked carbine of 18" for a customer. By just making that custom stock we were able to dramatically alter the lines. It was hardly recognizable. We did also eliminate the barrel nut which alone cleans up the action considerably.

As others have said, a budget for this can run all over the place.

However, if you want a "special" 30-30 bolt, as others have mentioned I'd look for a model 54 action and have it rebarrelled and restocked. I'd even go a little farther and decide what bullet you want for it and have it throated for that.

Then you can have a pretty unique custom that can be thought of as "unique" but not "oddball"

The closest action for what you want would be a Mauser 98 that was originally set up for 303 Brit. I have two, one has been set up for 30-40 Krag (which I am keeping) and the other would need the bolt face modified. The one I would part with also has Rigby scope mounts that go with it. This is an original Rigby with all matching numbers but someone some time in the past welded a standard rimmed bolt head to the bolt body. The safety flag has SAFE and FIRE in gold letters. PM me for pictures and see if it is something you might entertain.

But in all honesty, the price to buy it and complete the rifle is not for the faint of heart.

Tigger,

I was wondering about whether or not a 303 based action might be practicable. I was thinking a SMLE action done up like a Lee Speed would be pretty interesting but I'm not sure if the magazine would even hold the cartridges down.

Good question. I don't know the answer to the magazine issue. Truth is, I don't know for sure about the 30-30 in the 303 magazine but the 30-40 Krag fits like a glove in my slant-box 303 Rigby.

Over the years I have had and used virtually all of the bolt action rifle models which were manufactured for the .30-30. (Savages, Remingtons, winchesters, etc). In my opinion, if a person wants a truly good .30-30 bolt gun, with nice looks, nice carry characteristics, great accuracy, and top case life, there is only one I would even consider.

It is the Winchester Model 54, made for that cartridge by Winchester, not converted from a rimless round.

They are pretty much flawless in operation, and simply exude quality above all other 30-30s I've ever run across. The "snick-snick" of opening and closing the bolt are the classic well-oiled, machined-steel, sounds. Remind me of a brand new Mercedes S-series door shutting, in respect of how solid it sounds. Sensously, slightly degenerately, elitist.

You can buy a Win Model 54 in 30-30...if you can find one. I passed on one 10 years ago and consider it one of the ones that got away.

In his book on gunsmithing, Mr. Howe I believe, made an interesting point. The 6.5 Japanese action was made, redesigned by Japanese engineers from the Mauser for a rimmed cartridge, the 6.5 Japanese. Semi rimmed technically, but rimmed so the magazine works fine with rimmed rounds and it is a very close approximation of a Mauser. He recommended this action, back when "bring backs" were common, for the ".30/30" family of cartridges. .25/35. --.30/30 Imp. Don Wasp. Don Ace (6mm Wasp). etc.

Rifles are no longer "all over" and hand work is no longer cheap, but something to think about. Otherwise you are "reducing the bolt face" on anything else. .303? .30/40 Krag. I think the dies by RCBS for making the Siam rounds used .45/70 cases. luck.

Yeah. I think short of finding a 54 I'm just going to have to go with a spiffed up '94. The idea of trying to turn one of those rem or savage actions into something nice seems a bit like putting perfume on a pig. Good enough actions, don't get me wrong. Just not what I'm looking for. Oh well. Now I need to find a decent pre model '94. Maybe open it up to an A.I., put what I want for sights on, dress it up and call it good. In my neck of the woods there ain't much one can't do with a 30-30.

NHbwana

I'd go for a Winchester M-54 if I wanted the best .30-30 bolt gun. Have owned two M-54s in .30-30, and bother were fine!. Now I have a M1912 Mauser bolt gun in .30-30, made as a sort of joke rifle 10-12 years ago. It shoots good, but has had no magazine work done so it's only a three shooter, but it does allow me to use pointed .308 bullets in .30-30 cases, and to spice up my loads a bit.
LLS

I consider a M94 the rifle equivalent of a bumper jack. If you ver owner a 1960 through a 1970s Chevy you will know what I mean. A Marlin is much smoother and after the mid 50s or so you can mount a scope on them.
If I were to start your project I would use one of the Yugo bolt gun with the safety breeching. They have a flat bolt head which is required to head space the rimmed case. The magazine would be a trick but I am sure a good gunsmith could make it work with 2 or 3 rounds.

ireload2,
I agree with you [as usual] the bolt face and chamber are only the beginning of the hassle. Extractors, ejectors, magazine, and feed lips make it a long campaign.
And I am looking to buy a 336, just to take it apart and look at the pieces.

I have a 30-30 Savage bolt gun, but I have never fired it. It does not look like a strong design.

I have converted a 91/30 use a Gun Parts Corp surplus Win 94 30-30 barrel. I made a bushing that without a 30-30 reamer, without clocked threads, got it to headspace, and got the sight dovetails on top. I challenge any gunsmith on THIS forum to figure out how to do that. Other engineers or high school students in advanced placement math are not eligible for the contest. I have not shot it yet, but it is massively strong.

This discussion is somewhat interesting - from the point of view of the mental gymnastics.

It seems to me that a rotary magazine would be the best for a rimmed cartridge. Anyway, since the invention of rimless cartridges for bolt actions with magazines in which the cartridges are staggered, like the Mauser, there is just no need to mess with something as tricky, engineering wise, as a bolt action 30-30. There is a very good reason why there are so few examples.

The trouble ain't worth the results.

About the time the 30-30 was introduced, as a lever action cartridge, at the close of the black powder era, and the beginning of the Mauser type action era, the 30-30 was already obsolete. The lever action is the only reason the cartridge survived so long. The same year, or very close to the same year, a far superior cartridge was introduced - namely the 6.5x55. I forget when the 7.62x39 was introduced, but it was a long time ago as well. To shun metric, or Nazi, or commie cartridges, is ignoring some of the world's great cartridges. Personally, and for sure, I would ignore the 30-30 first, long before ignoring European or metric cartridges.

If a person's point in having a "special" rifle is nostalgia, fun, quality, unique, nice walnut stock, delivery of .308 bullets at 30-30 velocity, assured of feeding, proven technology and design of the action, accuracy, etc. then in my way of thinking the 30-30 cartridge in a bolt action is not the foundation. If a 30-30 is great for anything in NH, then the 7.62x39 is just as great.

I recently made a discovery, which opened up the possibilities for a rifle which meets all my criteria in finding a rifle substitute for my old 788 in 30-30. About a year ago, I bought a Charles Daly mini-mauser action with the bolt face for the 7.62x39. If course there are several great derivative cartridges that will also work, such as the 6.5 Grendel. I think the 6.8 Remington will work too, but I’m not sure about that. Anyway, I liked the action all for except for some aspects that I consider critical. I don’t like the safety, or the trigger, but they can be easily replaced with a Timney. Mostly I don’t like it that the bolt is not locked down when the safety is engaged. I can’t stand that feature in a hunting rifle. Two days ago I found out that Gentry makes a replacement three-position safety especially for the mini-mauser, which solves the problem of locking the bolt down, and other associated or perceived problems. I ordered one right away.

As the little Sako used to be, but is now very hard to find, with the Gentry safety, the mini-mauser now becomes a real possibility. The action is technically made correctly, with two front locking lugs, and a recoil lug underneath, in the proper place. The magazine box is integral and staggered, rather than detachable and single-stack. It will feed correctly with no modifications. The ammo is readily available. If a person just had to have 30-30 ballistics, then Pac-Nor lists what they call the 7.62x39 Lapua, which is the chambering on a .308 barrel.

Anyway – food for thought. As I said before, I have thought about this for a long time, and so that’s why I have decided to abandon the idea of messing with a 30-30 altogether. There are just too many problems to solve or accept in trying to make a custom bolt action 30-30.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
ireload2,
I agree with you [as usual] the bolt face and chamber are only the beginning of the hassle. Extractors, ejectors, magazine, and feed lips make it a long campaign.
And I am looking to buy a 336, just to take it apart and look at the pieces.

I have a 30-30 Savage bolt gun, but I have never fired it. It does not look like a strong design.

I have converted a 91/30 use a Gun Parts Corp surplus Win 94 30-30 barrel. I made a bushing that without a 30-30 reamer, without clocked threads, got it to headspace, and got the sight dovetails on top. I challenge any gunsmith on THIS forum to figure out how to do that. Other engineers or high school students in advanced placement math are not eligible for the contest. I have not shot it yet, but it is massively strong.

tnekkcc,
I think you may like the innards of the Marlin.
I have never liked the stamped steel extractor setup but it seems to work ok in the 3 that I have. The rest of the interior's design is pretty sound. It always seemed the locking block of the M94 would be stronger than the same feature on the 336 but in actual use the Marlin works well and is much smoother to operate.

Your bushing exercise sounds like fun although I am not so sure I think that much of M94 barrels but at least you didn't have to chamber it.
I had two M94 .375 barrels that were crooked and required a receiver sight to sight in the windage. There was no scope option anyway but I got rid of the Big Bore 94 after I got a great deal on a .375 Marlin.
Both the M91 and the 340 Savage have the vertical locking lug arrangement capable of spitting gas out the top lug race way. I am not sure that is a problem with sane shooters though.
The 340 might make a .25-35, .375 or 38-55 bolt gun. Or you could get absurd and make a .32-40 out of one. I shot one in .222 Remington and a couple in .30-30 some. I wonder why it was never made in .35 Remington. It is one of the cheapest designs to manufacture that I have ever examined.

Your other option instead of a 30-30 is the old 30 remington. Uses the same dies and loading data, just doesn't have the rim of the 30-30 so you will need a new shell holder. As a rimless cartridge, it works fine in bolt guns, and you could probably have a 527 or Mauser 98 re-worked to handle the 30 Remington a lot easier and cheaper than what a 30-30 would take. Quality Cartridge has brass and loaded ammo and Remington still does a run of brass every couple of years.

quote:

Originally posted by CMcDermott:
Your other option instead of a 30-30 is the old 30 remington. Uses the same dies and loading data, just doesn't have the rim of the 30-30 so you will need a new shell holder. As a rimless cartridge, it works fine in bolt guns, and you could probably have a 527 or Mauser 98 re-worked to handle the 30 Remington a lot easier and cheaper than what a 30-30 would take. Quality Cartridge has brass and loaded ammo and Remington still does a run of brass every couple of years.

Ballistically the two rounds are very similar, enough that most load books will state that .30-30 data can be used in the .30 rem. However, dimensionally they are not the same. The rem is a full mm longer.

If you're inclined toward the seriously upscale how about rebarreling a 223 with a 300 Whisper tube?

Otherwise folks at the range seem quite happy with their CZ527 carbines in 7.62x39. As others have mentioned there are deer capable factory softs available and it can be handloaded. When it comes to plinking and practice you can police your "brass" with a magnet.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:


Your bushing exercise sounds like fun

If there is guy on AR that can do it, it is you.
Two equations, two unknowns, 720 degrees does not equal 0 degrees on a screw.

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:

Ballistically the two rounds are very similar, enough that most load books will state that .30-30 data can be used in the .30 rem. However, dimensionally they are not the same. The rem is a full mm longer.

quote:

"Speer 12" 1994:
"Some bolt-action and single-shot rifles have been chambered for this cartridge. Reloaders can sue spritzer-type bullets in these rifles, but should keep the weight to 150 grains or less. Heavier spritzer bullets cannot be drive fast enough in the 30-30 to expand reliably. We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington model 788. The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."

What does it all mean?
It is not easy to find out that the 30-30 case is strong enough for extremely high pressures and the 30 Rem case is weak case only capable of wimpy pressures.

The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."


Ross Seyfred proved that same statement wrong about the 45 Colt being loaded to damn near Casull pressures. His claim is if the brass fits the chamber precisely (mean not a sloppy chamber) it works just fine. To prove his point he loaded full case charges of Bullseye in a 45 Colt with a strong tight chamber and fired them with no damage to the gun or case. The case is gas seal.

Most everyone thinks the Marlin lever action is stronger then the M94 Winchester. Such is not the case. If you dig into this you'll find it's easier to wreck a Marlin then a M94. I'd take a Winchester barrel any day over a Micro-Groove Marlin.

I know many fellows that make rifle and wildcatted cartridges with very high pressures with not problems. Some are based on the 30-40 Krag case and other's on the 30-30. Very rarely does a case let go on it's side walls (not talking about head separations from excessive head space here either). It's the web and head that shouldn't be thin. The 30-30 brass has enough to hold plenty enough pressure if the chamber isn't sloppy.

The 6.8 SPC Remington was designed from a 30 Rem as the parent case, but the 6.8 cases are much heavier. The 6.8 Rem can run pressures in the very high 50K region.

I feel a person should build whatever he wants, not what someone wants or tells him is a wimpy cartridge.


gg

I really don't have much against the commie round other than the rifles it's chambered in. If you'd like to use it on deer or what not by all means have at. I'm not going to get into some pissing contest about how great the 7.62x39 is compared to the 30-30. Hell you name a chambering and I'll name one close to it and we could do that till the cows come home. I find the little CZ's hideous looking. Period. You want one all gussied up feel free. I don't though. I want a 30-30. Sorry to dissapoint.

Clearly the 54 is the way to go though. Thanks for the help.

NHbwana

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

[QUOTE]"Speer 12" 1994:
"We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington model 788. The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
What does it all mean?
It is not easy to find out that the 30-30 case is strong enough for extremely high pressures and the 30 Rem case is weak case only capable of wimpy pressures.

Uhhh - What?
Try saying that again, please, because I'm not sure what you meant?

Surely it's common knowledge the 30-30 brass is designed perfectly well for it's intended purpose and the pressure levels for the Win 94, and Marlin lever guns.

That's the point - exceed that pressure even in a stronger action, and the brass is subject to fail. I know very little about the 30 Rem brass, except that if memory is correct, the 6.8 Remington cartridge has the same head deminsions. Perhaps Remingtom beefed up the brass for the 6.8mm, because the presure is up there with most modern rounds.

I'm curious - does anyone know the case head diameter and length of the brass of the 6.8 Rem compared to the 7.62x39? Either would do about what the 30-30 will do, energy, at higher pressure, because the brass is designed for higher pressure.

I know the 6.5 Grendel is based on the 7.62x39 brass, and it's another good one in a small bolt action.

Practically any rimless brass is stronger than 30-30 brass, from 6.5x55, introduced about the same time as the 30-30, and including the other cartridges mentioned above.

That's yet another reason to skip the 30-30, unless you want to use it in a lever action.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by NHbwana:
I really don't have much against the commie round other than the rifles it's chambered in. If you'd like to use it on deer or what not by all means have at. I'm not going to get into some pissing contest about how great the 7.62x39 is compared to the 30-30. Hell you name a chambering and I'll name one close to it and we could do that till the cows come home. I find the little CZ's hideous looking. Period. You want one all gussied up feel free. I don't though. I want a 30-30. Sorry to dissapoint.

Clearly the 54 is the way to go though. Thanks for the help.

NHbwana

Some people have their mind made up, and others are open to discussion and comparing learning experiences. So, NHbwana, since this is a public forum, starting a discussion herein does not mean that it will be limited to discussion directly for or with you. If you want - or don't want to consider other options - by all means go forth and be happy.

My discusion is with any and all willing to share ideas, and information. It's all interesting. I see no pissing contest here, and I certainly don't want to participate in one either.

I'm certainly not dissappointed in your choice, as I'm pretty sure none of us are. It's your dream, time and money - whatever pleases you is perfect with me too. It's just not what I would do given the same choices. That's not a pissing contest.

And another thing - this discussion as far as I can tell, hasn't been about comparing the greatness of the 30-30 to any other cartridge, such as the 7.62x39. It has mostly been about finding a suitable action to achieve the desired results. If the desired results must include specifically the 30-30, then the best answer seems to be the mod 54, as you concluded.

However, if the desired results ballistically include the 30-30 and modern rimless cartridges with similar ballistic results compared to the 30-30, then that opens up the possibilities to include the Ruger 77 MKII, the CZ 527, the mini-mauser, or the little Sako if you can find one, and perhaps others. All these choices can be made into a very classy rifle, perhaps not including the CZ. But accuracy is in a class all by itself, and the CZ is not lacking there.

In my opinion, most folks who are into hunting give high priority to feeding and function of their rifle --- first --- over the specific cartridge. That's one of the reasons you don't see the 30-30 mfg in a bolt action anymore. There are obvious and better choices.

Regards,
KB

I like the little CZ carbines for what they are. I have one in 7.62x39 and will keep it because though I mostly handload, it is fun to be able to walk into the store and buy a couple hundred rounds for some fun shoting without having to go into debt. As soon as I find another it will become a 6.5 grendel.

As for having a "NICE" .30-30 bolt gun, well all it takes is money.

With the advent of Hornady's new levergun ammo, most of the advantages the boltguns used to offer have about disappeared.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

[QUOTE]"Speer 12" 1994:
"We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington model 788. The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
What does it all mean?
It is not easy to find out that the 30-30 case is strong enough for extremely high pressures and the 30 Rem case is weak case only capable of wimpy pressures.

Uhhh - What?
Try saying that again, please, because I'm not sure what you meant?

Surely it's common knowledge the 30-30 brass is designed perfectly well for it's intended purpose and the pressure levels for the Win 94, and Marlin lever guns.

That's the point - exceed that pressure even in a stronger action, and the brass is subject to fail. I know very little about the 30 Rem brass, except that if memory is correct, the 6.8 Remington cartridge has the same head deminsions. Perhaps Remingtom beefed up the brass for the 6.8mm, because the presure is up there with most modern rounds.

I'm curious - does anyone know the case head diameter and length of the brass of the 6.8 Rem compared to the 7.62x39? Either would do about what the 30-30 will do, energy, at higher pressure, because the brass is designed for higher pressure.

I know the 6.5 Grendel is based on the 7.62x39 brass, and it's another good one in a small bolt action.

Practically any rimless brass is stronger than 30-30 brass, from 6.5x55, introduced about the same time as the 30-30, and including the other cartridges mentioned above.

That's yet another reason to skip the 30-30, unless you want to use it in a lever action.

KB

I don't know where you fellows get all this misinformation. The 6.5 Grendel is not based on the 7.62x39 case. It's parent was the 6mmPPC which is a totally different case engineering wise. For one it's small rifle primered. The PPC case are designed so that the flash cone from the primer matches the internal diameter of the case near the flash hole. The flash holes are smaller then other normal cartridge sizes. I will give you credit in a long run you can trace the PPC cases back to the 7.62x39, but only in rim size.

You must have missed my previous post I said the 6.8 SPC is derived from the 30 Rem but Remington (and Silver State Armory) beefed it up in the web area.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

[QUOTE]"Speer 12" 1994:
"We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington model 788. The answer is NO! The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
What does it all mean?
It is not easy to find out that the 30-30 case is strong enough for extremely high pressures and the 30 Rem case is weak case only capable of wimpy pressures.

Uhhh - What?
Try saying that again, please, because I'm not sure what you meant?

Surely it's common knowledge the 30-30 brass is designed perfectly well for it's intended purpose and the pressure levels for the Win 94, and Marlin lever guns.

That's the point - exceed that pressure even in a stronger action, and the brass is subject to fail. I know very little about the 30 Rem brass, except that if memory is correct, the 6.8 Remington cartridge has the same head deminsions. Perhaps Remingtom beefed up the brass for the 6.8mm, because the presure is up there with most modern rounds.

I'm curious - does anyone know the case head diameter and length of the brass of the 6.8 Rem compared to the 7.62x39? Either would do about what the 30-30 will do, energy, at higher pressure, because the brass is designed for higher pressure.

I know the 6.5 Grendel is based on the 7.62x39 brass, and it's another good one in a small bolt action.

Practically any rimless brass is stronger than 30-30 brass, from 6.5x55, introduced about the same time as the 30-30, and including the other cartridges mentioned above.

That's yet another reason to skip the 30-30, unless you want to use it in a lever action.

KB

I don't know where you fellows get all this misinformation. The 6.5 Grendel is not based on the 7.62x39 case. It's parent was the 6mmPPC which is a totally different case engineering wise. For one it's small rifle primered. The PPC case are designed so that the flash cone from the primer matches the internal diameter of the case near the flash hole. The flash holes are smaller then other normal cartridge sizes. I will give you credit in a long run you can trace the PPC cases back to the 7.62x39, but only in rim size.

You must have missed my previous post I said the 6.8 SPC is derived from the 30 Rem but Remington (and Silver State Armory) beefed it up in the web area.

Starmetal, the important thing and I think what everyone here was getting at is that the case head size is the same so any bolt already setup for the 7.62x39 will work for the Grendel.


Cases can be formed from either the 22 PPC, the 6mm PPC or the 7.62x39. Now, to go load up those small primered 7.62x39 cases I have.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

I will give you credit in a long run you can trace the PPC cases back to the 7.62x39, but only in rim size.

You must have missed my previous post I said the 6.8 SPC is derived from the 30 Rem but Remington (and Silver State Armory) beefed it up in the web area.

Yea, that's what I said, only leaving out the evolutionary part, and the small primer,vs large primer stuff. Thanks' for the add'l info.

I posted about the same time you posted, so I did miss the part about the 30 rem/ 6.8mm. Since you are so knowledgable, what is the rim size of the 6.8 compared to the 7.62x39?

As ZIR said, I'm thinking about waht will fit into an action with a bolt face and magazine length set up for the 7.62x39, not Darwin's theory on evolution.

Thanks,

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:

I will give you credit in a long run you can trace the PPC cases back to the 7.62x39, but only in rim size.

You must have missed my previous post I said the 6.8 SPC is derived from the 30 Rem but Remington (and Silver State Armory) beefed it up in the web area.

Yea, that's what I said, only leaving out the evolutionary part, and the small primer,vs large primer stuff. Thanks' for the add'l info.

I posted about the same time you posted, so I did miss the part about the 30 rem/ 6.8mm. Since you are so knowledgable, what is the rim size of the 6.8 compared to the 7.62x39?

As ZIR said, I'm thinking about waht will fit into an action with a bolt face and magazine length set up for the 7.62x39, not Darwin's theory on evolution.

Thanks,

KB

6.8 SPC rim size is .422 but it's much thinner then the 7.62x39 rim.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tnekkcc:
What does it all mean?
It is not easy to find out that the 30-30 case is strong enough for extremely high pressures and the 30 Rem case is weak case only capable of wimpy pressures.

Uhhh - What?
Try saying that again, please, because I'm not sure what you meant?

Surely it's common knowledge the 30-30 brass is designed perfectly well for it's intended purpose and the pressure levels for the Win 94, and Marlin lever guns.

That's the point - exceed that pressure even in a stronger action, and the brass is subject to fail.

It looks confusion will follow you on this topic.

Not that it matters to the discussion at hand, but I am pretty sure the 6ppc originally uses the 220 Russian as the parent case. It is the the 220 necked up and blown out. The Grendal takes it another step up in diameter and pushes the shoulder even farther forward.