ROD@MRC

I have looked through most of the old posts and didn't find this question

"Rancher: In three words, the PH is longer, bigger and heavier. There is a string in here that describes and shows the action. Essentially, it is a square bridge, super-magnum evolved Mauser with an M70 type trigger and safety. So what?

Well, price. $650ish."

bolt dia .800"
internal mag 4.00"

What I would like to know is if you chambered for 500 A-sq and wanted to shoot longer military bullets. You would have to feed them single shot but would there be any feeding problems???Let me see if I word this right would the extractor snap over the case. I hope you have not answered the question before and I just missed it. Have you set a rough date for the PH yet?? Thanks RNS

OK, you have to make this easy for me when I'm posting from home as I have none of the cartridge data here. What is the 500 A-Square based on?

The PH will have the undercut Mauser extractor and could be a lot less forgiving of odd stuff than the M1999 is.

I think the PH might get bumped backward by the WSSM program, but that's not my call.

Rod

The 500 A-Square is based on the 460 Weatherby necked up to .510 caliber. With a 750-grain 50 BMG projectile, the COL of the 500 A-Square should be around 4.625", depending on the throat dimensions. This means the cartridge will not fit the 4" internal dimension magazine box and it will have to be single fed. Good luck.

Well, I've looked at the rim diameters on 416 Rigby, which is planned and the big Weatherby cases and although none of my manuals seem to agree with each other, the rims look to be as close as .005 (and as far apart as .017).

Can't call this one until we get a prototype machined.

Rod

Rod,
On a big square bridge action, why in the world does it not have a drop box magazine?? or does it, I have been told it does not.

Rod I am somewhat confused here with all the talk of long action, short action, right-hand, left-hand, PH, etc. Can you give us a list of what is currently available for shipment and what is coming out in the near future and what is just talk about future plans?

[ 02-24-2003, 06:24: Message edited by: Howard ]

Ray: some folks confuse "drop box" with detachable magazine. PH certainly won't have the latter. It looks like (so far) we can get four rounds in the hinged floorplate arrangement with a slight belly in the floorplate and some close attention to the follower, and still not push the bottom metal too far away from the action for traditional classic style stocking. That's looking at it from a purely mechanical viewpoint. Marketing is another perspective. Should it have a drop box in spite of mechanical necessity? What are the advantages? Drawbacks? One of our stock sources says they have gorgeous drop-box pattern just waiting for this action. Obviously, we'll listen, try to get a market consensus and then go with it.

Howard:

Talk is talk until you spend money on it. Then it becomes a plan.

Long Action in RH is in volume production.

Long LH and Short RH & LH have significant investments in CAD. 99% done. We're finalizing the mag boxes for the SA now and I expect to see new drawings maybe even tomorrow. I need the mag box outlines to verify optimum casting magwell dimensions. That's the last piece. Hopefully, this week we'll write a big check to Ruger and start the molds (thank you all).

As soon as the SA mag boxes are done, CAD guys go to work on WSSM. We outsource the CAD (and write checks) to a local firm that is top-notch. So that means WSSM becomes a plan. WSSM will be delivered in both RH & LH some six months after we write Ruger another big check. At this point, I have no idea when that might be.

We've already spent significant funds on the PH, so it's a plan too. Got more shape-work to do, and some magazine work and then we have to see how it compares with some stocking choices out there. The guys from Chey-Tac were lobbying for a 4.500 inch magazine, but if this thing gets any heavier, it might need tracks. At some point you gain the fringes and lose the middle. I suspect the PH will get back on the front burner sometime in late April or Early May.

What's just talk: The skinny mini. The .223 and Tac-20 action. Haven't spent a dime yet. Looking at some solutions and writing up design goals. Making decisions about where this model might go and what part of the market it would serve.

Hope this helps.

Rod

Rod

Here are a couple of reasons for a big 4.5" box fed action.

The 460 weatherby /.510" shooting long bullets
The 505 gibbs / .510" " " " "
The 408 chey group
and EDs 458 hubel
SSK industries has a single shot 50 peacekeeper but no action to build a magazine fed model from even though they claim to. As per my last phone call to ssk and ED Brown http://www.sskindustries.com/riflecartr.html

I want one, for my next 500 jeffe....
jeffe

Personally "drop box" magazines are ugly and unneccessary. A deep floorplate doesn't ruin the lines like the bloated belly of the box.

I really don't care what you call the damn thing as long as it holds 4 down and 1 up. Not a tight fit either a true express dangerous game rifle should hold the maximum number of cartridges. I do care about aesthetics but not at the sacrifice in firepower!

ROD@MRC,

Having played with custom big bores for a few years now, I suggest that your PH action be designed to fit 4 rounds of 505 gibbs down in the magazine box, plus one in the chamber.

The calibers such an action are likely to be used for are:

505 gibbs
500 jeffery
500 A-Square (almost the same as 510 Wells)
460 weatherby
585 nyati
600 overkill (probably only a handful)

To be frank, such an action is really only necessary for the 505 gibbs, 585 nyati and 600 overkill, so the design should focus on those calibers. But there is nothing worse than a big bore action that will not fit at least 3 rounds down, and preferably 4 rounds down, even if the stock does have a perch belly look.

At $650ish, I would buy one right away.

500,

I honestly don't see necessity of 5 rounds in a DG rifle. Now obviously, as the old maxim states, "more is better" but what is the 5th round for? Yourself, if you cant put the buffalo down in 4?

Best,

JohnTheGreek

The 5th is in case I have to help clean up the mess left behind by a guy carrying a .416.

OOH . . . That hurts!

JohnTheGreek

Well guys, you also have to consider that the 450 Ackley is real hot in Africa among the PH's. And this baby will hold FIVE of those in the box...and one in the chamber. 500grain solids at what, 2550fps?

That's...let's see...two backup rounds for each of three clients should they all screw up simultaneously on the same stalk?

Or is it called "war".

Yeah, but you do not need a magnum length action or a 0.800 bolt body diameter for a 450 ackley. A standard model 70 size action is fine for that cartridge.

Rod---The extra half inch in length to make a
4.5 inch mag will add very little weight, but the calibers all of us want that length of rifle
for, has to be weighted and built heavy anyway.
Much more than what you would add.So that recoil is managable.My 458 HE recoils 110 ft lbs with
13 lb rifle.And it won't fit in a 4 in magazine.
So 6-8 oz of reciever extra will aid in the total
shooting comfort of rifles like this.Your prices are great, but I would give a hundred extra for that half inch extra magazine and stroke.And I
have 3 bigger wildcats 2 of which could use the
4.5 in length.And there is all the other cartridges out there that need the length.We
pyros really need a longer length action.And they
will sell as fast as you can make them.Ed.

I also would like to see a 4.500 inch magazine on the PH model. There is such a lack of choices for bolt actions for the longer cartridges. The few others are multi thousand dollar actions.

Copper Country hit it on the head.We wildcatters
and big bore folks are spending a lot of bucks on
developement,dies,reamers etc, and when a big action to do what we want is 3000 bucks also,
that really hurts.Like we say, you make them 4.5
in and you will sell as fast as you can make them.
You would help to free up the creativity in the
pyro world,Ed.

Rod-

Based on a couple of telephone conversations with you, I was of the understanding that there were going to be three sizes of the PH Action.

One action was going to accomodate the standard magnums and/or Remington Ultra Magnums.

The next size would accomodate the Rigby size cartridges.

The next size up would accomodate the, for a lack of a better term, super magnums and/or .505 Gibbs size cartridges.

Would you please clarify this?

Thanks in advance.

Rod my 450 watts with 500 gr X or 600 gr orginals seated to 1 dia are just over 4.00" long


As you can see they start to get long with the big bullets and not wanting to give up powder room. RNS

[ 04-18-2003, 19:55: Message edited by: RNS ]

if my vote counts, i to would prefer the longer mag box. i hate when i have to use powder space seating the bullet so it fits in the magazine box.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pd9c27ba14afbd94e1799ab9de480b976/fc53f9e0.jpg.orig.jpg

there that should let you look at the pic. RNS

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pd9c27ba14afbd94e1799ab9de480b976/fc53f9e0.jpg.orig.jpg

That one might be better.RNS

Rod,
The M1999 and you new PH should have a drop box..for one thing all our patterns are for drop boxes and an African/English should have a drop box, that is why Blackburn, Searcy,Grisel and Sunny Hill make drop boxes for 06, 375 and 505 lenths for M-70's and Mausers....

The drop box adds more class to a true English bolt Rifle than anything else, it sets them apart to those with an eye for such things. It give you more shots without reloading and believe me, that can be damned important when you really need it..

I love the CZ's as you can load that drop box on saturday and shoot until the following sunday...6 down and one up is reasuring.

I agree with Ray (as usual).

I really think the drop box magazine gives a rifle a "serious" look (for want of a better term). In my opinion (worth twice what you paid for it!), the forend on a rifle with a drop box can be made slimmer and still look very well proportioned.

I just sold a Brno .375H&H that held 6+1 shots, and it was great fun to load it up, then try to hit 7 clay pidgeons rapid fire at the 100m range. This usually brought others over to see what the cannon was...

jpb

I agree that a drop box would be nice on this rifle. The problem comes in of course on which one. The box for a .375 H & H will be different than one for a .404 Jeff, or a .416.

A good option would be to have a reference for bottom metal from Blackburn or Williams if they want to build it and order the action without bottom metal.

I have to agree with the above posts. Any big bore action just would not look right without a dropmagazine. Otherwise you can get only two rounds with an inline feed and that simply negates the reason for a large bore stopping rifle. I had Steerling Davenport put a blackburn drop mag on the standard MRC action that is going to be a .416 Hoffman . It will hold 4 down and I would be even happier if it would hold five down.
A drob box just looks "African" and when I look at an African caliber at some convention without a
drop box I do not spent much time looking.
George

30 cal mag fan: As the PH project stands today (and it is standing - while we gather all this need info), the action was designed to hold .505 Gibbs cartridges using geometry supplied by Thos. Burgess. When we looked at the relationship of five H&H types, 4 Rigby types and 3 Gibbs types, it was reasonably easy to come up with a mag-well, boxes and floorplate to do them all, with a slight belly in the floor plate.

All: Then along came the Chey-tac folks and really bent our ear for a longer magazine. And we HEAR the message around drop box designs. So maybe we stretch this and see what that does to shooting ergonomics when you work with a bolt that has almost an inch more stroke than a long action Rem700. I'm not sure you could scope it...but would you want to?

A VERY experienced African hunter dropped by the factory last week, hefted the PH casting and said, "Just about perfect."

Do we, should we, build two? Call one the "Tactical Supermag" and let the PH fit the market it was designed for - namely .45 bore dangerous game hunting? Lot's to consider.

Those that would like to see a drop box on M1999 LA and the PH, feel free to sketch out your desires and sent them in to Brian (brian1@montanarifleman.com). He's looking for customer input before we crank this one up again.

Rod, thanks for your quick reply to my email, about the Left hand actions.

I am seriously waiting on the PH. I want a 416/450Rigby/470Mbogo, and would love to build it on your PH action. As the PH stands now, it is the perfect size for these cartridges, which ever I choose. If you extend the mag box out for the 408CT, I feel it would be much too large to be practicle for these cartridges. I would end up with a CZ550.

Luckily I do not have to make your choices.

Kristofer

Dan,
Your problem will not be lenth with most cartridges and if it is then that's an easy fix, the problem is width and shape and how the big rounds are staggered and angled in the box, that is what makes a big bore feed...

I have your 375 Length action, I will toss your magazine box or use it on a pre 64 or perhaps you could give me credit for it, whatever...I will purchase a 404 box from Ted Blackburn made specificly for the 404 Cartridge, then cut the rails to match it...By doing this my gun will feed properly..Most all cartridges are different and require a different box...A 416 Rem for instance would feed fine with the box you furnish on the 375, but never feed perfectly for the 404 as the stack is too straight and that cause rounds to pop out from time to time, usually when facing a Lion, Buffalo or Dell Carmen Catiwampus, whoosh!!....

If I was manufacturing an action, I'd pay Ted Blackburn a vist and get it right the first time and save a lot of manufacturing costs and costly mistakes....For what it's worth.

From reading the post above I'd say there's a need for three "PH" actions:

The first would be an action big enough for the 416 Rigby and smaller that comes with bottom metal and is pretty much a "pay and shoot" action.

The second would be a raw action, big enough for up to the 505 Gibbs, but marketed *without bottom metal*, and some extra metal left in the rail area for fitting by the gunsmith that *fits* the action FOR THE CALIBER specified by his customer.

A PROFESSIONAL HUNTER action should be for the absolute reliable function of HUNTING calibers, using HUNTING bullets, at HUNTING velocities.

To do that takes dedicated bottom metal. There's no way around it with a controlled feed action.

The third would be something that looks like a big chunk of hydraulic cylinder with a yard of bolt throw for those that just like to make noise and burn handsful of powder and shoot cartridges with no hunting use, but offer enjoyment by the decibal.

Maybe call it the "Tac Artillery" model. Call it "Tacky" for short.

Just MY OPINION.

A couple of notes here-

First to George Hoffman and Ray Atkinson; is Ted Blackburn making a bottom metal unit for the existing (in current production) magnum M1999? Just curious, your comments imply that he is and I haven't had a chance to call there.

Secondly, to Jack Belk. I know that I am going to sound like a "kiss up" but hey, I have been called a heckuva lot worse in my lifetime. Since joining this board, I have read a lot of your posts Jack. They are always informative and right on target. In reference to your comments on the Montana PH action, again, you sir, have cut through all of the mish-mash and nailed it. I would salute you however, my side is hurting from this darn stitch as a result of your comment on the "tacky" action. Bravo! Keep em' coming.

Jack--30Cal--that may be the way to go,I build one
big enough for Tackies,Rob's 12 guages from hell,
my biggest cartridges.Make bolt .820 so all the
bmg wildcats will work. And my belted derivatives from bmg brass.Use 5in stroke, and with the
design they have on PH action it won't be outsized
like the ones selling now for thousands.Just bigger with proportions right.Ed.

Rod
Since you have talked at length with Tom B. He more than likely disscused a "pocket" plate, or as the British call them a "Magazine Tray". I have made mine for years with a .100" pocket, plus the .085 mortise for the spring. This will not add too much to the profile, but you can keep the guard and the forearm profile where it should be.
Also hopefully you will have the Mauser type follower to help with the loading and feeding.
Jim Wisner.

30 caliber Mag.
one of the first things did, was to call MRC to find out about the drop magazine. They said, it would work. I then sent the action to Sterling Davenport and ask him to check the measurments of the Blackburn drop mag. He said, it would work as the action has the same hole spacing as the M 70.
George