I am thinking about having a custom tube put on one of my guns, the smith seems to prefer kriegers, I had pretty much set on a shilen, I can get a comparable shilen for about $100 less than the krieger, is it worth spending the extra money??

Cummins CB... I have had a half dozen rifles built or rebarreled with the highest quality barrels over the years and find them to be worth the money every time. The question about which brand will or could start a firestorm. One thing is certain however, and that is that Krieger cut rifled barrels are among the very best money can buy. Another aspect of this choice is what caliber you will be chambering for. Some manufacturers specialize in benchrest calibers, and others in hunting/long range barrels. Dan Lilja, of Lilja barrels has a very informative website at riflebarrels.com, I think it is.

Yes they are. All the Krieger barrels I've had have been extremely accurate. They're all I use, period.

I would ask what you are using the gun for. If it is a hunting rifle then the answer may be that it is probably not worth it from an objective point of view, but may be worth it from a subjective point of view in that you know you are using a Krieger barrel and that knowledge is worth $100 to you.

I have rifles with Krieger, Lilja and Shilen bbls. All are very accurate.

I think the key here is, your Smith prefers Kreigers. I would use what he likes as he is the guy doing the building.

Many people believe that a cut rifled barrel lasts longer.

It is to me, Krieger 6.5mm 1:8.5" twist:

I think one important thing to consider is turn around time on a barrel order. I recently used a Krieger on my 375 RUM and it shoots better than almost any rifle I own. Downside was that it took almost 5 months to get the barrel in my smiths hands.

Having said that I ordered a Stainless Shilen for my 458 and had it within 2 weeks. After seeing how it shot this evening I can't really discern much difference between the two.

I will caveat and say that my experience with order times could be attributed to how busy the manufacturer was when I ordered it. Kriegers are in high demand through the benchrest world and all over so they can get a little bottlenecked from time to time.

Having ownerd Hart's, Shilen's, and Kriegers I would say choose the one that you feel best with as I don't think it really makes a lick of difference until you are talking benchrest. Spend more time picking a good smith that can cut a good chamber and the barrel will be less of a factor.

Depending on what type of barrel I need, I use Krieger, Rock Springs (Mike Rock), Lilja or Broughton. For hunting rigs, I always order Krieger these days. Life is too short to use a barrel that I don't have absolute faith in. I'll go cheap on my shoes, cars and women, but not with a rifle barrel.

LD

Even leaving the accuracy component out of it, there's something to be said for a barrel made the old way - cut-rifling. A Swiss watch doesn't have to be more accurate than a quartz for it to be more valuable to a person who cares about traditional quality.

Still, the barrel is one thing and the whole package is another. Two smiths could install the same barrel on the same action and get radically different results. I'd lean towards picking a smith who wanted to install the barrel I liked, rather than starting with the barrel itself.

Jaywalker

I would tell the smith what results i wanted to achieve, Let him decide how to achieve it.

Then if he dosn't deliver he can make it right. If he does, then you got just exactly what you wanted.

When I go to the baker for a cake I dont tell him what brand of chocolate to use. I just tell him I want a chocolae cake with icing that will feed so many people.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
It is to me, Krieger 6.5mm 1:8.5" twist:

Thats nice shooting, but how can you prove that a Lilja or a Shilen would not have done better?

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Depending on what type of barrel I need, I use Krieger, Rock Springs (Mike Rock), Lilja or Broughton. For hunting rigs, I always order Krieger these days. Life is too short to use a barrel that I don't have absolute faith in. I'll go cheap on my shoes, cars and women, but not with a rifle barrel.

LD

LD

Shame on you for saying you will go cheap on women!!!!!

I have a couple of Krieger tubes, and they shoot well. But then again, so does a bunch of other (custom) barrels. For a hunting rifle, there is probably not that much difference between 1st rate custom barrels from one manufacturer and the next (Krieger, Shilen, Hart, Lilja etc). The machining and installation are easily as important as the tube manufacturer.

The only reasons I'd go with a Krieger if I were you is that 1) they are impeccable in quality, and 2) your smith recommends them. The last bit is always important.

- mike

With a Shilen, I think you are stuck with their listed contours. Kreiger will give you any countour/lenth you specify or duplicate a barrel you send to them for no extra cost.

All that aside, if you go with a Shilen and it doesn't shoot well, what do you think your gunsmith is going to say?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
It is to me, Krieger 6.5mm 1:8.5" twist:

Thats nice shooting, but how can you prove that a Lilja or a Shilen would not have done better?

Here is what a Shilen does installed by Shilen. I have had wilson barrels that shot almost as good. I would also take a Kreiger, Hart, or a number of others without reservation.

TBS

I would not want to be a Prairie Dog living anywhere near you! Nice shooting.

Perhaps we are overlooking the fact that NO barrel is any better than the shooter. Some
guys would do well to save the money spent on superior barrels because they can't shoot better than 1.5" MOA anyway.

This is not a jab at anyone, but something to consider. I've known guys with 2" MOA barrels
that get their deer/elk every year. Pictures of targets do not necessarily translate into hunting success!

Some are simply better hunters too. I've also known some guys who would do as well if they hunted with a rock!

Cummins Cowboy: I have Rifles with barrels by Douglas, Shilen, Lilja, Pac-Nor and Hart. I have nary a complaint with any of them.
I was hoping you would get back to us about which caliber and what uses you are contemplating with your new custom.
If you are going with a sporter weight barrel I would save the "hun" and go with Shilen, Lilja or Hart.
If you are going with a heavy barrel for Varminting or Bench Rest competition then burp up the extra hundred and try the Krieger.
I myself have never gone with them but I know folks that have and they have all been happy with their accuracy.
Decisions?
Best of luck with whichever you choose!
"I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks" (do I sound like a common politician or what?) - once Cummins Cowboy better defines his needs.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I am convinced that one gets something for the extra money spent.....but at diminishing returns and in often wonder of what it was that you got.

To me the answer is that after the money is spent for a Douglas priced barrel on a hunting rifle the payback on the extra investment is indeed small.

Shilen barrels are minimally more....so have at it!

Jack Krieger makes excellent barrels. Boots Obermeyer taught him well and Jack has learned a lot on his own since then. He is good, and he is reliable, and he is honest. And yes, his barrels are starting to become quite popular with benchresters.

Still, dare I say there is no ONE "BEST" barrel at that level? 15 or so years ago most of the benchresters used Harts...then for several years Shilen was dominant (especially after they started offering big cash prizes for Shilen users who won certain big benchrest shoots). Now Kriegers are becoming the "fashion" among the big spenders of benchrest.

I truly believe that when one gets to the level of Hart, shilen, Krieger, and Lilja, debating merit is a lot like arguing "Which is the best "sporty" car, Audi, Porsche, BMW, or Mercedes AMG?"

Of those 4 and maybe a few more, just pick which make causes you, your gunsmith, and your wallet all feel most fuzzy & warm, and you won't go wrong.

Can anyone provide valid objective evidence as to why these Krieger barrels are so good as compared to other barrels. Is it becasue they are cut, or becuase of their twist rate, or the steel used, or what??

Lilja told me once that it is a number of things that can make the barrels better than normal. Sometimes it is a GOOD batch of barrel steel, sometimes it is new tooling and sometimes it just works out better than other times. Every once in a while there will be a batch of hummers comming out of a certain barrel maker's shop. When this gets around you will see a change in which barrel maker takes the most orders. It's just been Krieger's turn lately. Don't worry as that will change, too.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Can anyone provide valid objective evidence as to why these Krieger barrels are so good as compared to other barrels. Is it becasue they are cut, or becuase of their twist rate, or the steel used, or what??

Almost 10 years ago now, I had a long discussion (about 4 hours) with Jack Krieger on that very subject.

He felt one of the primary reasons his barrels were better on average, was that he "cryo"s every single barrel blank before ANY cutting is done on it in his shop. He said it GREATLY improves the straightness and dimensional consistency of the hole drilled through the blank for the bore, prior to rifling, reducing his loss through scrapping of crooked barrels by about 7/8ths. That is, for every 8 barrels he would have to scrap because of bore straightness not being to his standards when he didn't use the cryo process before boring, when using the process he would only have to scrap one.

Jack figured it stands to reason that improvement in deep-hole boring stability carries over at least a little into the other cutting operations (such as rifling). And at the level he is talking about, a little tiny advantage can be the difference between winning and losing.

Of course, every really good barrel maker at that level does all the other things as a matter of course....ordering the specific steel alloy he thinks works the best, heat-treating and heat stress-relieving every blank himself regardless of whether the foundry or mill claims to have done so before shipping or not, making sure his buttons and/or cutters are shaped the way he thinks best to get the most consistent twist, etc.

And any process will make outstanding barrels in the hands of a real craftsman who understands the process he uses and devotes himself to quality control, whether hammer forging, button rifling, cut-rifling, or whatever. Jack will tell you that, too. That being said, he felt his additional step of cryogenic treating of each blank really made a difference, and he recommends doing such treatment twice, once before and once after machining the barrel.

The first time is free, something he does without charge because he makes the cost back (and more) on the reduction in the number of scrap barrels. The second one, he recommends you have him do after the barrel is otherwise complete, but he charges for the second one if you want it. He figures they are good enough for pretty much anyone without the second cryo treatment but, again on average, that a second treatment will over the long haul give enough more "hummer" barrels to be worth the money for a top competitive shooter.

Having said that, I agree with almost everything Pegleg said above. Choice of barrel-maker is subject to fads just like everything else in the world.

Krieger will make just about any twist in the cut-rifle (within reason) that you want. Shilen offers three grades of barrels last time I checked...is the difference in how close they come to spec?

Rich

Kreigers are as good as it gets. Cut rifled barrels are especilly important if you want a barrel the has complicated countours, like on Garand. Other barrels are top quality too. The best group I ever shot was with a Pac-Nor. Once you get to a certian point all of the really good ones will be a toss up.

quote:

I would tell the smith what results i wanted to achieve, Let him decide how to achieve it.

Then if he dosn't deliver he can make it right. If he does, then you got just exactly what you wanted.

When I go to the baker for a cake I dont tell him what brand of chocolate to use. I just tell him I want a chocolae cake with icing that will feed so many people.

That is a curiously passive approach, especially considering that this is a "gunsmithing" forum.

I tend to be a do-it-yourselfer, but if I was paying anybody to perform work on a custom rifle I would be VERY particular about exactly what I wanted. Right down to the precise angle of the bolt handle.

In comparable words, don't tell him HOW to bake the cake, but be very specific about the end result, i.e. specify cream cheese frosting versus buttercream, etc.

quote:

I truly believe that when one gets to the level of Hart, shilen, Krieger, and Lilja, debating merit is a lot like arguing "Which is the best "sporty" car, Audi, Porsche, BMW, or Mercedes AMG?"

I like this comparision, and to further that thought, it shouldn't make any difference what make of barrel your gunsmith prefers in terms of his willingness to perform the work, and his ability to do a good job.

Unlike a complex piece of machinery like a car, a barrel is a barrel when it comes to the job of putting it together with an action. Pick a smith that you trust, and tell him what barrel you have decided you want.

http://www.cutrifle.com



From what I hear....they are worth every penny and are as good or better than Krieger. Delivery times are much better also.

quote:

Unlike a complex piece of machinery like a car, a barrel is a barrel when it comes to the job of putting it together

My favorite gunsmith tells of HUGE differences in machinability of some barrels vs others. Specifically some germanic hard steel barrels chatter and resist cutting more than some other types. Results may vary.

For me, I love Krieger barrels. Last week I sent a test load to 100 yard target, and first two from a cold clean barrel went through same hole, but for perhaps a sixteenth. Third was way out there a third inch away. course I think the wind blew the two into the same hole. but I do find Kriegers always perform for me.

Jameister

Jameister

I've never owned a rifle with a Shilen. I have 3 rifles, 300WM, 338WM, and 416RM that have Kriegers. All of them are shooters. It's up to you, but I would go with what my 'smith recommends - that way he can't complain if it doesn't shoot.

Jeff