I had a pre-64 M70 06' rebored to 35 whelen. With some bullets seated rather long, the bolt overrides the rear of the case head FROM THE LEFT SIDE ONLY. I've played with trying magazine springs from other pre-64 actions, looking for magazine burrs, spring angle, follower polishing etc, etc, etc but nothing helps so far. Here is my question: are new replacement springs significantly stiffer than springs on rifles as old as pre-64s ? I'm thinking that a stiffer spring may hold the rear of the case up better which could prevent the bolt from overriding the case. thank you.

May need to replace the follower with one that has a different profile. Possibly one for a Mauser, or Remington 700.
Feeding problems can be tricky to diagnose.
The spring has a pretty simple job and I would think it's more likely the follower or the side rails of the magazine box need adjusted for the different cartridge.

I agree with the need for a different shaped follower. I think the larger diameter bullets up front are causing the case head end of the cartridge to cant downward. Will the action feed empty cases without this happening? I have had to use a sanding block on a magazine follower in order to reshape it to make it feed correctly.

thank you guys for your responses. Luckyducker: in response to your question, no the empty case will not feed from the left side. And you are correct: watching closely as you attempt to feed, its obvious that the larger diameter bullets are causing the casehead downward cant. However, it depends on which bullet is being used: the longer tapered bullet such as the 225 gr. accubond will feed fine, however the much blunter style will not. I did try a follower from a commercial FN mauser which seemed to help MOST of the time, but not 100%. I'm curious as to how exactly you sanded the follower to reshape. If I could reduce the upward angle of the case as it rides up the feed ramp it would cure the problem.

So was a 30-06, throw a handful of 30-06 cartridges in the magazine, does it feed from both sides perfectly, that would at least confirm it is your 'new' Whelen ammo causing the problem and not something else that is occurring.

quote:

With some bullets seated rather long

Had the same problem the cause was the tip of the bullet touching the front of the mag causing the cartridge to hang up.

eagle27: yes, it has always fed 06' cartridges just fine. I'm certain its the bullet diameter which is creating an angle which causes the rear of the case head to be too low so that the bolt head overrides it as it moves forward out of the magazine. If you seat the bullet rather deep in the case, or with certain bullet shapes, it changes that angle enough to eliminate the problem. I just can't figure out how to fix it. I rather suspect that if the feed ramp were altered a bit that it might fix it, but I do not want to start grinding away in a trial and error fashion.

I recommend getting a magnum follower. That should take care of it, if it is caused by the different cartridge.

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I recommend getting a magnum follower. That should take care of it, if it is caused by the different cartridge.

Yep, that would be easier than modifying the current follower.

I have tried a magnum follower (from an original pre-64 .300 Win. Mag) as well and it made no difference.

That doesn't sound good.....

If a mag follower isn't a fix ,then it may need professional help in the adjustment of the profile of the follower or the lips of the magazine box, or possibly something else also...
Sorry for your luck.
Those feed problems can be a problem indeed.

I had a little trouble most recently with a model 70 that I had altered the mag box on. I got lucky and with a little good advice about trying a Remington follower, got it working great .
The Remington follower is shaped very different than the Winchester and I wouldn't have thought it would be a good fit.
But it worked fo me.

quote:

Originally posted by devere:
eagle27: yes, it has always fed 06' cartridges just fine. I'm certain its the bullet diameter which is creating an angle which causes the rear of the case head to be too low so that the bolt head overrides it as it moves forward out of the magazine. If you seat the bullet rather deep in the case, or with certain bullet shapes, it changes that angle enough to eliminate the problem. I just can't figure out how to fix it. I rather suspect that if the feed ramp were altered a bit that it might fix it, but I do not want to start grinding away in a trial and error fashion.

Okay sounds as if the cartridge head needs to slide up under the bolt face under the extractor claw earlier. Had a feed problem with my Mauser 404 Mauser when I first got it where the cartridge head was slow to come up the bolt face and needed a good shove to come up out of the magazine scratching hell out of the cases when doing so. A slight stoning of the extractor claw heal converted it to a smooth as butter feeder, the sharp extractor heel was catching in the extractor groove. Relieving this area may just help to let the case head ride up earlier.

Interesting thought eagle27: Let me be sure to try explain EXACTLY what occurs. As the bolt face starts moving the case forward from the magazine, and when the bullet starts moving up the feed ramp at an angle, the case head moves downward, and as the bullet continues to slide up the ramp, the case head finally dips down too much and the bolt face overrides the case head. thank you.

It ain't the follower or the spring, it sounds to me like there is some interference with the fit of the mag box/receiver fit or just under the feed rails. Just my humble opinion.

My thought is that you can DESCRIBE feeding issues until hell freezes over. Best bet is to take or send it to a knowledgeable gunsmith...... Check your OAL first. At least half of feeding problems can be traced back to handloads.

quote:

Interesting thought eagle27: Let me be sure to try explain EXACTLY what occurs. As the bolt face starts moving the case forward from the magazine, and when the bullet starts moving up the feed ramp at an angle, the case head moves downward, and as the bullet continues to slide up the ramp, the case head finally dips down too much and the bolt face overrides the case head. thank you.

Okay, I understand the problem. I once had this issue on a Savage model 111 that had been rebarreled to 270Win, from what cartridge I have no idea. I ended up changing the angle of the feed ramp to decrease the feed angle of the cartridges. I used a dremel and it wasn't pretty but the rifle fed like a dream when I was done with it.

quote:

Originally posted by devere:
Interesting thought eagle27: Let me be sure to try explain EXACTLY what occurs. As the bolt face starts moving the case forward from the magazine, and when the bullet starts moving up the feed ramp at an angle, the case head moves downward, and as the bullet continues to slide up the ramp, the case head finally dips down too much and the bolt face overrides the case head. thank you.

Yep understand what is happening just wanting to cover all bases. My 404 has had the feed ramp altered mainly to fit the longer cartridge in the standard M98 action but as a result the feed ramp is quite steep so although the bolt face was not slipping by the cartridge head as yours is, the feed was really hard and brutal on cases. The simple modification of the extractor heal solve the issue in my case, never said it would in yours but just something worth checking.

Changing the angle of the feed ramp has to be done carefully as the feed ramp forms the locking recess for the lower lug on the bolt. Dremelling down the ramp angle can eat into the lug recess area.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
throw a handful of 30-06 cartridges in the magazine, does it feed from both sides perfectly

your response is NOT an answer to his question.

quote:

Originally posted by devere:
eagle27: yes, it has always fed 06' cartridges just fine.

You didn't state that you tried this since re boring.

quote:

Originally posted by devere:
I'm certain its the bullet diameter.....

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but, you're not certain. That's why you're asking questions here.

I'd like to see a pic of what magazine box you have in it.

What else did you change when you had it rebored?

New stock?

These guys have good pics of what should be installed in which pre64 rifles

https://pre64win.com/collections/magazine-parts

thanks for your suggestions. Will try to answer questions asked:

1) rifle was an 06' featherweight with factory stock which fed 06' cases from both sides, both before and after the re-bore.

2) after the re-bore, put the barrelled action in a standard grade factory stock that had been an original .300 Win. Mag. Had it glass bedded by a local smith who I trust his bedding to: he bedded the recoil lug and tang with Brownell's glass. Continued to use the factory original magazine box and follower.

3) the rifle, as is, will feed Rem. 200 gr. factory loads from both sides ( OAL 3.150") and Nosler factory 225 gr. Accubonds with OAL of 3.267". However handloads using Sierra 225 gr. with OAL of 3.282" and 3.375" will not feed from left side. Handload using Barnes 225 TSX with OAL of 3.298" will feed from left side, but increasing its OAL will cause it not to feed from left side.

Did you look at the pre64 link pics I posted above? I'm thinking you might have the wrong box. 06 box has crimps to narrow where the shell rides in the magazine. The 300Mag box is wider on the inside, but the exact same dimensions on the outside as the 06 box.

Have you tried just the barreled action without the stock? Mag box should have .010" play up and down.

Jim: Yes, I'd looked at the pictures of the boxes but it hadn't occurred to me that the box might need to be changed. I think I may have tried the barrelled action without the stock, but can't be sure. I will try it again. Will also check for play in the box.

So you are thinking that since the shoulder of the whelen case is larger, that the magnum box would change the angle of the case as it moves up the ramp? I never asked, but is this unusual: changing a pre-64 M70 from 06 to whelen causing a feeding issue like this? I've read numerous people who said no feeding issues. thanks again.

Devere

I converted a number of 98's and 03’s to 35 Whelen many, many years ago and do remember a few things from those conversions.

For what its worth. As this is a Featherweight M-70, its a latter production 64 receiver. The shoulder bump area may not be machined equally on each side as many of the latter actions had some interesting anomalies. The larger neck OD as well as the larger Ogive on the 35 caliber bullet is likely causing the contact point on the new round to be prematurely positioned or pushed closer to the centerline on the bullet ramp due to the lack of clearance on the now larger neck and the OEM machined shoulder bump. If you look carefully on a M-70 358 Win Featherweight you’ll see what I mean, finding one of those might not be easy.

So the angle of the loaded round rolling out from under the rail is more acute and causing the back end of the case to be driven deeper into the mag box at the rear and just allowing the bolt lip to over ride the case base.

I would start by inking the case with dykem or a sharpie with the barreled action turned up side down and rubbing the case back and forth under the rail to see if there was any contact interference on the shoulder bump angel and the new neck OD. If so care must be taken to remove enough bump shoulder to prevent the bullet nose from prematurely heading towards the centerline. Keeping the same geometry on the bump as the original would be smart to begin with.

Then the bullet ramp will need to be widened horizontally for the larger bullets, getting carried away here is not good either. It does not need to be a steeper angle, quite the contrary, it would be better is the bullet ramp had a shallower angle and wider trough.

If the magazine box, spring and follower are original 30/06 OEM parts it should feed OK when the above is corrected.

Using empty case's to check for feeding, while it sounds cool is a 100% useless exercise and dramatically changes the geometry of the bullet-less cases coming out of the magazine. If a barreled actions feeds empties GREAT ! but that in no way confirms that the barreled is now set up properly to feed.

Who hunts with empties anyway ?????????????????

Good Luck

Here's the pic for DArcy
DEWin70 by JAMES ANDERSON, on Flickr

Jim & Darcy: Many thanks for taking the time to try to help me with this. Darcy: when you say the "shoulder bump" area of the action, I take it that you're describing the machined area under the rails towards the front of the magazine well that is narrower than that area behind it. Am I correct? Without measuring, it appears that both sides are machined to the same depth.

I have just VERY CLOSELY AND VERY SLOWLY fed both an 06' and whelen reload from the left side to compare the angle as they made their way up the ramp and into the chamber. Both rounds looked to my untrained eye that they traveled the same angle: however at about the time in which the area just rear of the case shoulder made contact with the feed ramp, the rear of the 06' case snaps up smartly under the extractor as it should, while the whelen case dip below the bolt face and gets overroad. So as you described Darcy, I'm certain that the larger neck OD as well as the larger Ogive of the Whelen bullet is the major culprit.

Knowing that the feed ramp serves as the lower lug support area, and that I've not messed with any grinding on actions before, I'm hesitate to doing any grinding myself. However, it seems as though just a very small amount of material removal on the feed ramp at the right place could make a big difference.

It also could be as simple as the underside of the rail being so sharp that its digging into the case as the case is trying to roll out from under the left rail ? 180 grit W&D paper followed by 280 and then 320 grit and your finger tip could resolve this problem, you can only hope.

In regard to removing material from the feed ramp your right it will weaken the area to a degree but If you look at the Mag actions in the same pic you can see where Winchester removed the shoulder bumps altogether which in turn made the action less rigid and wider. On the 375 they did have to shorten the feed ramp as well as the magazine is now 3.625/3.630 for the longer 300/375 H&H rounds. They also removed the rearward rib from the magazine box then installed a wider follower for the additional width in the rear of the magazine as the mag case diameters are of course larger. Done correctly you still have plenty of material and strength.

You could remove the shoulder bumps altogether and as long as you widen the bullet ramp as well. You could do this with a hand grinder, grinding stones, cartridge rolls, and then paper but its best done with a mill at 1st and some proper fixtures to hold and rotate the action for the operation. But with this course of action an adverse effect might crop up. One being the forward edge of the follower might now stick up through the front of the rails, not good and now requires a different follower. Think of the whole dynamic as a system and works like any other mechanical system and well when all the "parts" work in harmony.

I'm going to bet that if you use a typical round nose bullet that this might magnify the problem and that is the very bullet shape that should be used in the dummies when initially correcting this problem.

I suggest you don't try it yourself. When in doubt send it someone with less doubt. This task should be undertaken by someone that has done it successfully more than once. Like a knee surgeon find a guy that does 300 per year. More than a few guys that frequent this forum could sort it out quickly and efficiently.

Testing with empty case's, not this kid

Illustrating what Darcy has said about the Win 300/375.
A couple of images of a Pre64 opened up by Winchester for the 375H&H cartridge. Short steep feed ramp with a thin edge on the lower locking lug recess plus a good notching at the top of the receiver ring which is the backing for the top locking lug recess. The feed rails seemed to have been opened quite wide too.
Factory were obviously happy with the amount of metal removed and remaining strength.