I have been informed that 1897 and 1912 Winchester pump action shotguns do not have trigger disconnectors. This design "feature" allows these shotguns to be fired by holding down their triggers and vigorously operating the slide. This increased rapidity of fire significantly compared with pump shotguns with trigger disconnectors. This manipulation of mechanism was known as slam firing - and seems to me to be similar to fanning a single action revolver. These Winchester shotguns were preferred by the AEF during World War I because of this boost to soldier's fire power when fighting "up close and personal" attacking or defending the trenches.

How did/does this apparently safe use of their pump action mechanisms affect the durability of their mechanisms? Was locking of breech bolt as complete as it would be were the mechanism operated in a conventional manner - that is, as though the shotgun did have trigger disconnector?

Win. M12 and early Ithaca M37 shotguns also have this feature.
I guess I don't fully understand your question so I can be of no help to you.

I have really use a lot of the pump designs out there.

There really is not much different in the rate of fire between slam firing a pump and pulling the trigger.

For a well trained pump gun user.

I remember the first time I slammed fired my model 12. I was 13 or so and hunting grouse with my dad. I sent the 2nd shot after a falling grouse.

I told my dad what happened he than explained that feature.

As ammo was very dear to me at that time in life I tried very hard not to use that feature.

I could not afford to waste the ammo.

Yes it can be done I never heard of any damage to the guns I believe they are fully locked at the time of firing.

Your finger and your brain is the disconnector. Training.

I'm not sure this was a "feature" At a time in history, people just knew firearms and basic mechanical principles.

Old guns did not have or did there seem to be a need for , interrupters, hammer blocks, etc.

Shoot yourself in the leg with a SAA was an admission in brain dead stupidity

quote:

Originally posted by Naphtali:

How did/does this apparently safe use of their pump action mechanisms affect the durability of their mechanisms? Was locking of breech bolt as complete as it would be were the mechanism operated in a conventional manner - that is, as though the shotgun did have trigger disconnector?

Well, slam firing them has no affect on the longevity of the guns. The firing function is much the same as simply pulling the trigger. The model 12 and 37 are both actually fire controlled. They don't just (slam fire). They do not have true disconnectors like other pumps. They have a system more closely related to the interceptors which are found in machine guns. Machine guns normally have a sear located at the end of the bolts stroke and when the bolt impacts on this sear, it allows the hammer to fall.

While I have never heard that these two guns were actually, specifically designed to do this, the fact that there were already hundreds of guns on the market with trigger blocks (disconnectors), leads me to believe that it was an actual thought out function that was incorporated into both guns. Quite frankly, some one went to a lot of trouble to see that this function could be safely and reliably accomplished in both of these arms. A HELL OF A LOT OF TROUBLE !

The model 12 has an action slide lock which holds the hammer until the very last instant of lockup before it releases it to fire. It also uses a firing pin retractor which keeps the gun from firing kinetically from normal hard pump slams but also blocks the firing pin during slam firing so that the gun must be fully closed to allow it to fire.

The Ithica 37 uses its slide stop, much in the same way that the Winchester 12 uses its action slide lock to hold the hammer until the last second before closing to release the hammer. Essentially both these parts provide the same function by slightly different means. The 37 also blocks hammer fall to the firing pin by aid of the slide. If the slide is not locked into it's full forward position it catches the falling hammer and prevents it from striking the firing pin.

I don't remember the cycle of operations of the model 1897. I don't see enough of them to memorize it. I suspect that they too use a crude form of interceptor latch.

When I was a kid my pals and I tried slam firing a pump gun. Found out it didn't contribute to good shooting.

Dave

Slam firing is a common practice used in Cowboy Action Shooting or Wild Bunch Shooting. The Winchester products hold up well, the Norinco clones of the 97 .... not so much.

My Dad had a Savage 820B 12 gauge that would let you do the same thing.

It was made back in 1949 i believe and it is still going strong.

A person well versed in the practice of using a pump gun can do amazing things with a M-12 or M-37.
A few years ago we had a hunter who had been a Remington exhibition shooter using one of my M-12 Winchester's on a ptarmigan hunt.
When a large flock got up he dropped six birds quicker than you can read this by slam firing. I saw at least three dead in the air at one time!