Fellow 'smiths, I am wondering what your policies are when customers cancel custom builds/rebarreling projects. In most cases, I get either the cost of parts or 50% down and then order the parts etc. When a customer cancels the order, what if anything do you refund?

I recently had the problem after a customer had paid the cost of a barrel plus 100$ towards the build.

No returns on special orders. i.e. stuff you didn't have on the shelf already.

They pay however far into the build you are in and give them back everything they paid for. If paid full in advance well do the math.

Case by case basis. Depends on the particular build, how easily I should be able to turn it around, and the customer attitude factor.

quote:

Originally posted by guncurtis2:
Fellow 'smiths, I am wondering what your policies are when customers cancel custom builds/rebarreling projects. In most cases, I get either the cost of parts or 50% down and then order the parts etc. When a customer cancels the order, what if anything do you refund?

I recently had the problem after a customer had paid the cost of a barrel plus 100$ towards the build.

Depending on my back log, sometimes I run a waiting list. Customers put $25.00 down to be put in line for a spot in the shop. When the spot becomes available, and they bring in their project, then I apply the $25.00 to their bill. If they do not show, then they forfeit the deposit.

If a customer has put money down on a job and he cancels, then I suppose he would either get the money back less $25.00, or if the money went for parts, he would get the parts and I would bill him $25.00 for the spot.

If however I have second thoughs about a particular job and I cancel the project, the customer gets the full investment back. No if, ands or buts.

Not being a Gunsmith but having negotiated contracts for the last 15 years, the best approach is to be fair and reasonable and you should not lose money.

Some easy rules to follow:

1) If the customer paid for a part, ship it to him. He should of course pay for the shipping.

2) If you used a part form your inventory and worked on it, charge for the part and your labor and ship it to him. He should of course pay for the shipping.

3) If he you agreed to deliver on a certain schedule and that caused you to turn away other work, then it might be reasonable to keep a portion of the unused deposit.

You are entitled to be compensated for whatever parts and labor you consumed or expended on his behalf or other actual costs or losses.

You are not entitled to "punish" him because his canceling the project annoyed you.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

Depending on my back log, sometimes I run a waiting list. Customers put $25.00 down to be put in line for a spot in the shop. When the spot becomes available, and they bring in their project, then I apply the $25.00 to their bill. If they do not show, then they forfeit the deposit.

If a customer has put money down on a job and he cancels, then I suppose he would either get the money back less $25.00, or if the money went for parts, he would get the parts and I would bill him $25.00 for the spot.

If however I have second thoughs about a particular job and I cancel the project, the customer gets the full investment back. No if, ands or buts.

Form a customer's standpoint (mine as I am not a smith) this is reasonable.

As mentioned multiple times above, "it depends."

Send parts to him if they were paid for. Send labor deposit, minus a fee for your time.

I am a gunmaker and have negotiated many large corporate contracts. A gunmaker who has invested several hours of phone, face to face, or whateverc ontact needs to be paid for that time. This is time the client took away from the gunmaker's hours he could have put in at the bench. This time is covered in the overall cost of the project when the project is followed through to completion. However, if the client cancels and a gunmaker is actually trying to run a business, he should keep the appropriate amount of money from the returned deposit.

How much is where it is sorta a judgment call to be made on a case by case basis. And just as in corporate contracts for tens of millions of dollars, the client “pain in the ass factor” comes into play. How much of your time they ate up and how nice they were comes into play here. Also, how likely are they to order in the future, and have they ordered in the past? If they are likely to make an order in the semi-near future, then those hours you burned can legitimately be rolled into that project. If they have made multiple orders from you in the past and are not likely to ever order again, I would say that 99% of the time you should give them a full refund.

The reason for the cancellation should come into play, just as with corporate projects worth tens of millions of dollars. If the client lost his job because he got hurt and he does not even have health insurance, then I would take that into account-just as I did on corporate contracts worth tens of millions of dollars.

Then the most unquantifiable factor – the good ol' Pain In The Ass Factor. PITAF cones into play just as much in the corporate world as it does in the gunmaking world. And rightly so, at that. The bigger the PITA the client is, the more hours are spent working on quotes or jobs, and the higher the stress level. The higher the stress level, the less efficient efficient you (or your underlings in the corporate world) will be for a period of time after dealing with the PITA client. A good business person does their best to make a somewhat accurate SWAG at what this should be. Emotions should not lead one to be punitive, and I suggest the conservative (lower) estimate of PITAF money that the client should pay for a canceled order.

Basically, a refund is a judgment call.

As a customer, it does not matter as much what the policy is as long as it is stated upfront. The policy then becomes part of the customers decision making process and agreement to start a project.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
From what I have read here on AR lately, it would seem that client's are quite justified in having a PITA factor concerning their gunsmiths as well.

A lot of cancellations might not happen if the smith delivers what was promised in the time frame that was promised!!!!

Why don't you spend your time and energy cleaning up your own industry and less time worrying about ours. From everything I've read, heard and seen, attorney's are the most corrupt bastards known to man. Maybe if you were to spend more time trying to clean up your house, you won't have time to pollute ours. And wouldn't that be nice?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I wasn't polluting yours. I was just pointing out the obvious!

As for mine, most are following the wishes of their clients. So if you want to clean up that profession you need to clean up the AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Now that's brilliant! The reason lawyers get a bad rap is because of the AMERICAN PEOPLE! Who'd a thunk it!

Is that the best you can do? Give me a fucking break.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I wasn't polluting yours. I was just pointing out the obvious!

As for mine, most are following the wishes of their clients. So if you want to clean up that profession you need to clean up the AMERICAN PEOPLE.


Now that's brilliant! The reason lawyers get a bad rap is because of the AMERICAN PEOPLE! Who'd a thunk it!

Is that the best you can do? Give me a fucking break.

No joke! That's just pathetic.........



.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Craigster

It seems like every post you make is an attempt by you to show the world that you know how to say the words fuck or fucking. Good for you.
Now go back outside and play.

Judging from your responce, it's quite obvious that you either don't read my posts or you tend to exaggerate and/or over generalize.

Ask me if I care.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Ask me if I care

No, because if I did you would probably answer
"fuck no".

You said it, I didn't.

I put it in quotation marks to indicate that it would have been your speech, not mine.

No matter.

Back to the topic, as a customer:

I expect to pay for the work that I am having done and the parts. If I cancel/stop then I should have to pay for everything up to that point. (this bars those cases where the guy miffed it and I have to pay to have it redone, I don't think it would be right to pay for s*&T work). If a deposit is made then I would think it should be the same as in other industries, where that partial payment actually covers the smiths "cost" and then the remainder owed, and what it takes to get the finished product covers the profits. i.e. i'm having electrical done, at rough out I pay 65%, at that point sparky is paid and if something goes awry he has at least broke even.

As much as most people hate lawyers (and blaming it on societies idiots, while easy, is I agree escapism. pass a law that in losing cases the lawyer and plaintiff split the expenses of the other side same as they would split the win, see if you don't see a major drop in court cases) 22wrf is right in regards to the long delivery times. It makes me wonder, how often do rates get adjusted and when you commission a rifle, is the work rate locked at the price at completion date or do things fluctuate as time passes? Or do you usually get a firm total cost up front and that's what is stuck to? The worst part of projects that don't get finished and have to be taken back and handed off to somebody else may be that the buyer never gets compensated for their lost time.

A policy of paying for a slot, if it truly guarantees a slot, I don't have a problem with, in fact I like it. Knowing that when it comes your turn your project is up, and knowing how long it'll be till then would be good. I think this is probably rare and would hazard a guess that there are almost as many ways of prioritizing jobs as their are smiths.

which takes us into deposits. I'd be pissed if I put up a hefty deposit and found out I was bumped down the list or saw my delivery date keep getting pushed out further and further. If the policy of the smith is 50% deposit at beginning of project, the understanding should be that after xx amount of time past delivery date client has option to cancel and will be refunded difference between actual work and unfinished work. (I hope that made sense the way I wrote it) of course there are reasonable excuses, and that's why I'd build in a good number there. we've seen many cases here where if there had just been good communication and update of progress buyers wouldn't get bent over the delays. A year might not matter too much if you're getting good updates and there are reasonable excuses for the delays. By the same token 6 months of no communication past a promised delivery can be a big blow to a reputation.

Anyways, that's just what I fuckin think

Red
edited to add: Tattoo artists work on the pay for time slot method, if you don't show they keep the money, usually 50 bucks. I have one tattoo that I actually got because I had a slot reserved for my grandma and she wasn't able to make it and I didn't want to lose my 50 bucks! effective policy

Thanks for the thoughts. Some good reasoning was made by some of you. I appreciate the help.