Local gunsmith wants to silver solder bar stock to a receiver for use with Warne type QD rings. Anyone have any experience with this? Good or bad idea?

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Local gunsmith wants to silver solder bar stock to a receiver for use with Warne type QD rings. Anyone have any experience with this? Good or bad idea?

Siver Solder/brazing requires sustained high temperatures. I would not recommend applying that kind of heat to a receiver. Can't he drill and tap the receiver?

I've seen quite a few saddle bases (for claw mounts) that were soldered to the front receiver ring, so the must be an acceptable method or a low temp solder.

I would check with a gunsmith that has experience with European mounts, possibly Mark Cromwell at NECG.

I'm no expert on Soldering or what temperature range would be involved for soldering mounts to receivers BUT as KurtC stated above - it's not an unusual practice here in the Fatherland for riflemakers to (in additional to using industrial grade adhesives on the screws themselves & inside the scope rings) - solder mount bases and the heads of mount screws to a receiver.

I've three rifles with EAW Pivot Mounts (all bolt actions) that have the screws and mounts (both front & rear) soldered to their receivers. I couldn't say whether the practice is good or bad (actually you can't see anything unless you carefully inspect under the edges & inside the mounts closely) but it certainly goes a long way to help eliminating any issues with these parts coming loose.

i've seen lots of bases soldered to shotgun barrels over the years at shooting matches.

Soldered maybe, but like Malm says, no high temp silver solder.

Low temp solder is one thing, silver solder is another. Silver solder usually requires temperatures above 1000 degrees. These temperatures would ruin an action. Something like Brownells Hi-Force 44 might work, but it would require extraordinary care and preparation to keep the heat away from critical surfaces.

Hello,
These guys take you thru the steps. http://www.clawmounts.com/services.htm
John

I seen lots of soldered joints come apart I wouldn't just solder mounts on a high recoil rifle. I would screw them on.

Because someone, somewhere, decided to call the filler material used in certain brazing processes silver “solder†allot of people mistake soldering for brazing.

Typically, soldering takes place below 840 degrees F, and brazing takes place between 840 degrees F and short of the melting temperature of the base metals being joined.

As malm and Jim Kobe have pointed out, the temperatures required in silver brazing are a bit high to be using on a front receiver ring.

Is there some reason this smith can’t just drill and tap for the base[s]? Four 8x40 screws provide a WHOLE bunch of holding power.

I'v heard this one before. Whuy is it when they sell that stuff they call it SOLDER?

Gents: I should have explained the problem first. Sorry. The action has two holes on the receiver ring that are not properly aligned. They are slightly off-set at an angle to the center line. So the smith said his options were to fill the mis-aligned holes and redrill, or "solder" bases to the receiver.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I'v heard this one before. Whuy is it when they sell that stuff they call it SOLDER?

I have no idea, but if you find out let me know!

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Gents: I should have explained the problem first. Sorry. The action has two holes on the receiver ring that are not properly aligned. They are slightly off-set at an angle to the center line. So the smith said his options were to fill the mis-aligned holes and redrill, or "solder" bases to the receiver.

I had some that were slightly off but drilling them out to 8x40 fixed it (Tip Burns' work). Could your gunsmith drill blank bases to match the existing holes?

remember, all SxS guns are soldered together.. except some river rogue? (rigby of california's other label) which are high tech expoxied together

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I'v heard this one before. Whuy is it when they sell that stuff they call it SOLDER?

solder USED to mean "lead"... then in making rings and such, they actually melted silver (which is very high temp)...

then non-lead solders can have a silver content ... because silver is harder than lead, I guess

some folks get confused that hightemp solder is "actually" brazing and low temp silver solder is soldering....


GENERALLY when someone says "silver solder on a sight" they mean using something like force-44 and fairly low temp...

CZ uses silversolder (they wouldn't use LEAD solder) or silver bearing solder to put their front sights on the barrels... heh, take just one off and you'll know for the next 20


i know NO ONE "so experienced" to use high temp solder on a barrel or receiver... ... the temps and times required to get a good fit would result in a softened or at least annealled surface

Cut and pasted:

Silver brazing

If silver alloy is used, brazing can be referred to as 'silver brazing'. Colloquially, the inaccurate terms "silver soldering" or "hard soldering" are used, to distinguish from the process of low temperature soldering that is done with solder having a melting point below 450 °C (800 °F). Silver brazing is similar to soldering but higher temperatures are used and the filler metal has a significantly different composition and higher melting point than solder. Likewise, silver brazing often requires the prior machining of parts to be joined to very close tolerances prior to joining them, to establish a joint gap distance of a few mils for proper capillary action during joining of parts, whereas soldering does not require gap distances that are nearly this small for successful joining of parts. Silver brazing works especially well for joining tubular thick-walled metal pipes, provided the proper fit-up is done prior to joining the parts.

I have 4 Argentine 09 actioned customs by Trevor Proctor (England) that feature 'soldered' bases. They range from 6mm rem to 9.3x62.

The process works well and is immensely strong. The are a lot more elegant than drilled and tapped bases not necessarily because they are soldered but because they are made from bar stock and well designed.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:
Cut and pasted:

Silver brazing

If silver alloy is used, brazing can be referred to as 'silver brazing'. Colloquially, the inaccurate terms "silver soldering" or "hard soldering" are used, to distinguish from the process of low temperature soldering that is done with solder having a melting point below 450 °C (800 °F). Silver brazing is similar to soldering but higher temperatures are used and the filler metal has a significantly different composition and higher melting point than solder. Likewise, silver brazing often requires the prior machining of parts to be joined to very close tolerances prior to joining them, to establish a joint gap distance of a few mils for proper capillary action during joining of parts, whereas soldering does not require gap distances that are nearly this small for successful joining of parts. Silver brazing works especially well for joining tubular thick-walled metal pipes, provided the proper fit-up is done prior to joining the parts.

Yep,
we agree... and what is generally referred to as silver soldering a sight or ribs together occurs WAY under 800 F... in the case of some barrels, under 293F (general bluing tank temps)


So, yes, using temps above 800F isn't soldering, it's brazing...

and under it, by the wikipedia link posted, states that UNDER 800 is soldering....

Well.........thanks. Glad I joined AR, I learn something each time. This thread touches on the subject of actions compromised by heat. So..... what are the ways in which an action so compromised can/will fail? Will they crack, split, explode? Short of an explosion, is there danger to the shooter?

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
So..... what are the ways in which an action so compromised can/will fail? Will they crack, split, explode? Short of an explosion, is there danger to the shooter?

The ways are numerous. When exposed to high temperatures, they will crack, split and stretch. When the molecules decide it's time to quit holding hands, there will be danger to the shooter.

quote:

When the molecules decide it's time to quit holding hands, there will be danger to the shooter.

Malm,

I'm giving you props for that one. That's got to be the slickest way I've heard it described!

quote:

Originally posted by mad_jack02:
silver soldering does not require you to heat the metal to the critical temperature, (which is red hot), and that would change the heet treating of the part in question. So silver soldering is safe and doesn't change heet trteating, as long as you don't get the part to the critical ( red) hot.

Where the hell did you hear that??? You don't have to hit red to destroy the heat treating of the action. All you have to do is exceed the temperature at which the part is quenched.

Sorry Folks..
I do try to weed out the patently unsafe posts.

not worrying until an action is red hot is nearly criminally unsafe

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Sorry Folks..
I do try to weed out the patently unsafe posts.

not worrying until an action is red hot is nearly criminally unsafe

jeffe

Keffe! There is hope for you!

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
...The action has two holes on the receiver ring that are not properly aligned. They are slightly off-set at an angle to the center line. So the smith said his options were to fill the mis-aligned holes and redrill, or "solder" bases to the receiver.

Hey TWL, If they are not off too far, and if a regular Dual Dovetail or Weaver Style Base will actually screw down, there is one more option.

You might be able to solve it with Burris Signature Rings. They have the Synthetic Inserts and even offer Eccentric Inserts to be able to compensate for various Alignment Problems.

And if you happen to desire to try Long Distance Shooting, the Signatures are so far ahead of Tapered Bases that you will seriously appreciate them.

I use them on a good number of heavy recoil rifles with large scopes and the Signatures hold them without any hint of slippage, no marring of the scope tube and no Lapping Rings is required.

Sure would be a great way to fix the problem "if" the Base will tighten up.

Best of luck to you.