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I have a .458 Win Mag from the Remington Custom Shop. I am going to replace the extractor on the bolt. As between a Sako extractor and an M16 extractor, which is preferable and why? I know that the MK13 sniper rifles are fitted with M16 extractors so that is a pretty strong endorsement in my view. I am committed to changing the extractor so I would really like views on the two options above as opposed to simply being told to leave the M700 extractor alone.  Thanks. Mike | ||
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Mike, Did you forget that you are posting on AR? Of course you are going to get people telling you to leave it alone. I've looked into the exact same question and the two gunsmiths that I asked, both recommended the M-16 extractor. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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 I didn't say nuttin. Nuttin AT ALL ! When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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I always use the Sako extractor. Don't have to drill a transverse hole for them. | |||
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One negative about the Sako conversion to a magnum; the cartridge ejects at a different angle, hits the scope windage turrret and causes it to fall back into the loading port. Don't ask me how I know. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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I did one in 350 Rem Mag last month. Didn't check for that. | |||
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The M16 extractor just appears to be so much more robust and substantial. Also hard to imagine that drilling the transverse hole in the bolt would be a problem since it is well behind the lugs and the hole is hardly substantial any way but that is just an observation not an engineering judgment. Mike | |||
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Both the M16 and Sako extractor are located in the same spot. Both cause the empties to hit the scopes. People bitch about this problem even though I tell them about it before I do them. Use high mounts. Get used to it or cut half the lug away when you install it so it doesn't do it as bad. The one on the left hits low mounted scopes HARD, every time. The one on the right taps low mounted scopes most of the time.  sako extractors by Rod Henrickson, on FlickrWhen I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Rod, I found if you install the 308 extractor in the magnum bolt face it takes care of the problem Orrrr, you could install another ejector pin, that works too Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Just turn the scope so the windage knob becomes the elevation knob, and the windage knob is now on the left side. Simple. Drilling for a cross pin is no problem; just another step. I have installed M16 extractors in 700s too. | |||
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Yeah, I've tried the shallow extractors a few times Jim and it helps a bit. I have also shaved the ejectors at an angle so it kicks the empties down a bit more. But it's still a problem with low mounted scopes. I've never relocated the ejectors. I have looked at that option but I have always been a bit leery of it because it weakens the head a lot. Remington located the extractor in the center of the outside lug to deal with the problem. The fix is to stay away from those Chinese Vortex and Nightforce scopes with the bigass tubes and knobs and to use medium or high rings. If the brass klinking on the side of the scope is enough to cause a POI shift, it's time to join team Leupold, Leica, Zeiss or Swarovski. I think my customers may have jaded me a bit. No, I've always been grumpy! Notice that I still haven't said: (Just use the damned Remington extractor!) For once, I'm staying on topic. I think I deserve a cookie or something. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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I tried that but because I didn't want to disturb the scope in the rings I just turned the whole scope around to achieve the same thing. Problem is my animals seem to be a couple of thousand yards away now. Did I get it wrong somehow  Come to think of it don't know why scope manufacturers don't make scopes with the windage turret on the left as quite often with scope mounting setups where you want and should have the scope mounted as low as possible, there are problems with ejected cases hitting the scope turret. Semi-auto 22RFs are good at this if the turret is over the ejection port. | |||
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I tried that but because I didn't want to disturb the scope in the rings I just turned the whole scope around to achieve the same thing. Problem is my animals seem to be a couple of thousand yards away now. Did I get it wrong somehow  That's because you cheeped out and didn't buy the ambidextrous scope. On the ambidextrous ones the back and the front are the same size. Non-ambidextrous models have a big lens on the front and a little lens on the back. So when the big end is pointed at the critters, the critters look BIG. When the little end is pointed at the critters, the critters look LITTLE. Made the same mistake myself a time or two. he he he When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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If you don't screw with the original extractor there is no problem. M700's have served in combat for nearly 60 years without extraction issues. I know the OP doesn't want to hear this but it is true. I test fire 10-15 M700's a day. Even with rusty, rough chambers the extractors bite hard and don't fail. Even when hammering open the action. I've ripped off several case rims but no extractor damage. The key learning is that most extraction problems are chamber related or excessive pressure events. | |||
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Everybody is wrong----just buy one of the old Weatherby scopes that have both the windage and elevation adjustment turrets on the top! You don't have to muss with anyding! Hip | |||
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The Rem M700 is a very safe and strong action as it comes from the factory. While the extractor is considered a weak point, altering the design to a Sako extractor is not necessarily a safety improvement. It does not take much effort to find reports, and a lawsuit, from shooters who lost an eye when the Sako extractor on their M700 bolt blew out. 2011 STATE OF MICHIGAN COURT OF APPEALS , WALTON versus MIDWAY ARMS, INC http://www.michbar.org/file/op...011/100411/49873.pdf Sako + Remmy ='s Be careful! http://benchrest.com/showthrea...1d93f34d4776afae0ddb Sako extractor Remington 700 https://www.thehighroad.org/in...emington-700.826438/ 700 extractor replacement https://www.longrangehunting.c...t.70041/#post-492924 In my opinion you are better off leaving well enough alone. However, if you don't feel safe behind a Rem M700 extractor, sell the rifle and get a nice Winchester M70 with a claw extractor.     | |||
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You can get sued for anything. That case was thrown out by the trial court and denied by the appeals court. The plaintiff was reloading at 120K-150K PSI and was just trying to get a payday. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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If you really want it right, pay the money and wait for a PTG bolt for your action. I know their delivery is shitty, but their bolts have the ejector in the right spot for the Sako/M16 extractors. Their bolts are well made. Get the integral handle. I've installed both extractors and I've undercut the bolt lug as much as possible, same as Rod shows. On the last one, I filled the ejector hole, and moved it. It is a lot of work, and I'm just doing it for fun, not for profit. It is WAAAAAYYYYY easier to just get the new bolt with all these things already done to it. Just my 2 cents. They are US currency, but the value is rapidly declining. Jeremy | |||
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A lot of my colleagues, friends and acquaintances will no longer compromise the Remington bolt face in any way just for that reason. To many people have been hurt and it's just to easy to end up in court now days. Defending yourself in court costs big money. Even if you win. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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Did you examine the other threads where there were other reports of other shooters who lost an eye, or had that Sako extractor blown off their Rem 700 bolt? Yes, the shooter in the court case was running over pressure rounds. And the extractor blew out into his eye. That had to be true for all of the shooters who had Sako extractors blow off, and go into their eyes, they chambered an over pressure round. Am I to assume that they all deserved this? That because of their slothful, inattentive, negligent, immoral behaviors, they deserved having a Sako extractor blown into an eye? If they were not all of those things, surely none of them would have chambered an over pressure round in a rifle, so because they are evil, they got what they desired, eh? Kind of reminds me of Puritan predestination: you can identify the damned through their misfortunes. God protects the Select, and therefore fortune is the reward of the righteous, but sufferings are the earnings of the damned, and it is what they deserve!  I don’t consider my self one of the Select, I don’t believe the hand of God will be there to protect me when someone rear ends me, or if I rear end someone else’s vehicle, so I want air bags and safety belts. I also don’t want one of those vehicles that blows up, mid air, when it goes off a cliff. I have looked under my vehicle, and others, trying to find the altimeter device and explosive charge, don’t know where the manufacturer’s have hide it, but obviously, it is morally justified because only evil people drive off cliffs in TV shows or movies. And they get what is coming to them!  For those gunsmiths who believe, you get what you deserve, and blindness is what you deserve when you shove an over pressure cartridge in the chamber, please let us all know, so we can avoid sending our fire arms to you. You might install an altimeter bomb in the butt of the rifle, so it blows up when the car goes off the cliff. Just in case the automotive version does not function as it should! | |||
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For those of us that are unfamiliar with Sako actions, other than clones from Howa, why wouldn't a Sako send the extractor into orbit that same way? Jeremy | |||
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The moveable bolt guide rib on the bolt supposedly blocks it from exiting along the bolt raceway. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Well, as Jim said, Sako originally put the gas bar on the port side to stop flow from an over pressured round. The problem is that the pins or later, the spring clips sheer off and the whole side bar gets blown out of the receiver. I've never heard of anyone catching one. But the potential is there and I've seen a half dozen or so blown out. Normally because of the steel that they used and the scope rail cuts the receivers also come apart at those pressures anyway. Burst pressure on the old Sakos and modern Tikkas must be somewhere around 160,000 PSI In the Howa action the first 1/4 inch of the extractor generally gets blown out. I have seen two where the pin sheered off and the whole extractor was lost. Guns simply are not made to operate at those pressures. You can put a 454 motor in a Smart car. But it's not a very smart thing to do. It will eat it up like a fat kid on a bag of cookies. When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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According to Stuart Ottesen, the L-46 Sako action was put into production in 1946. It was a short action version of the L-461, which was introduced in 1961. Looking at his diagrams, the extractor on a L-461 is a long spring, similar to the 1891 Argentine extractor. Ottesen does not laud the L461 action for its gas handling, in fact stating "It lacks a strong breech and gas-handling system" There are a number of older designs which gas handling was an after thought. I would say the Sako Finnbear action is one of these and copying its extractor on to a M700 bolt is not well thought out.  There are more dangerous rifles when things go bad. The M1903 is just awful. The firing pin can break, forward. Jack O'Connor almost lost a thumb chambering a round when the firing pin broke forward. The round went off before the lugs were in battery. Ackley ran some destructive tests on the M1903, the firing pin blew out under high pressure, with enough velocity that Ackley claimed it would have gone through a shooter's skull. Designs have improved since WW2. Look at the Savage M110. Brewster did some great gas blocking, with the baffles around the bolt and firing pin shaft. The Rem M700 was well designed as is, monkey with the design by cutting the bolt face ring for a SAKO type extractor, I consider that a bad idea and in a high pressure event "you will "shoot your eye out" | |||
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I posted a while back about a M700 that came in the shop where the owner had fired a .308 Win in a .25-06. The pressure was so high that the bolt nose expanded and sealed the breech. He said "it kicked mighty hard". There was no significant gas leakage. Bolt was hammered open and back. While the bolt was trashed, the extractor held and was undamaged. The extractor and the three rings of steel worked that day. Mauser recognized the problem with bolt body mounted extractors in the 1891 Argentine. Few know that a pin was inserted through the receiver ring opposite the extractor at battery. It's purpose was to prevent the extractor from peeling backwards and possibly exiting the gun into the shooters face. Even the vaunted M98 claw can be blown out. No danger of that with the M700. Bob www.rustblue.com | |||
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I like the way you jump to reductio ad absurdum as a means of discussion/argument. I never said that anyone deserved to lose an eye or that the installation of the Sako extractor was even a good idea. I merely commented on your argument that you could be sued for an extractor failure was not supported by the court case that you quoted, as the appeals court ruled that the plaintiff was at fault and his suit was without merit. If you had read further you would have seen that even the defendant (Midway USA) appealed the original court's dismissal, on the basis that the court erred in ruling against the plaintiff for the destruction of evidence but that the case should have been thrown out on summary judgement. What has religion got to do with anything about a gun blowing up? No one brought anything about religion into this. What is with the rambling diatribe about bombs in gun butts and car accidents? What logical process do you use to communicate? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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If using an M16 extractor on a 700 bolt puts the shooter at inordinate risk, why is the MK14 rifle used by Special Forces modified to include an M16 extractor? Mike | |||
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Mike, Are you advocating that the hand of God should strike our Special Forces? Would you put a bomb in their gun butts? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I was just having fun with your dismissive attitude and judgemental statement.
This is what I wrote: It does not take much effort to find reports, and a lawsuit, from shooters who lost an eye when the Sako extractor on their M700 bolt blew out. I never said you could or could not be sued. I listed a court case to show that these SAKO extractors do blow out, and that there was a court case and other reports of incidents of Sako extractors blowing out. You decided to make this into a morality play when you wrote
So, lets create a hypothetical: Lets say, instead of a reload, the plantiff was firing factory ammunition. The rifle bore was clean, no bore obstructions, etc, and due to a brass flaw, the case head cracked or ruptured, which caused a gas leak into the action, and the SAKO extractor was blown out, into the eye of the plantiff. You know, these things happen.   Would you have found for the plantiff, and why or why not? | |||
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No Sako extractors for me. A friend in Texas, SW of Houston, had one come down the raceway and injured him. He said it was a blessing that he was shooting it and not his girlfriend. She shoots all of his rifles and is left handed. He replace all of his bolts that had Sako extractors. | |||
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Is there the same risk with a Howa M-16 style extractor doing the same thing? "Pick out two!" - Moe Howard  | |||
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Again going with the absurd. How could anyone decide anything from your information that you provided? Who is the plaintiff suing and for what? And if that's the totality of the plaintiff's evidence he wouldn't win in any court in the nation. You're not very good at this are you? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I'm curious about this too and read maybe two creditable responses, but how about getting back to original question rather then the childish twisting of each other's words on who said what.  If the the Sako style isn't so good how about the m16 style? Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Only going off anecdotal experience. I seen to many photos of Sako and M16 extractors failing on a hot round. I will not install them. That said there are a lot of aftermarket Rem700 clones that have them with no issues. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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For what it is worth, I was told by Dave at PTG that the mini 16 types were tested and rated to higher threshold before failing. | |||
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Just curious, what kind of extractor does Remington use on its Model 700 338 Lapua's? | |||
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Pinned M16 style extractors are installed on the .338 Lapua faced bolts in Rem 700's. Of the catastrophic failures witnessed to date, the SAKO extractors were the weak link. SAKO extractor modifications to Rem bolts by manufacturers or individuals that were improperly machined(through hole instead of counterbore for extractor pivot)are returned un-touched by me. On second thought,I should have cut the bastardized bolt(s) in half to get them out of circulation....but didn't. | |||
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SAKO extractor modifications to Rem bolts by manufacturers or individuals that were improperly machined(through hole instead of counterbore for extractor pivot) I don't quite follow that. What is the difference in the cuts Dan? When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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