I know I asked this when my brother got his or something like this, anyways, what are the major advantages of a SAKO extractor in a Rem700? Im really thinkin about getting one and want to know the pros and cons.

Pro: With it you will actually have a piece of tangible metal gripping the cartridge, providing semi-reliable extraction. Something Remington doesn't think is necessary.

Con: You will have to remove metal from the bolt, particularly a portion of the rim around the bolt face. Something Remington thinks is necessary. It will also violate the warranty.

The Rem M721 extractor on my rifle was broken (Split in half, but still peened) when I bought it used, but it still extracted the rounds.
At the time I had it made into a 338-06AI, I had a Sako-type extractor installed. This one worked very well.
I really can't say which would be better, since both extracts the rounds as needed, but because this was a custom rifle, I elected to have the Sako-type extractor installed.
~~~Suluuq

David,

I've had excellent results installing these on my customers 700's. The design is well proven and they provide a very positive grip on the cartridge when installed correctly.

I don't think you would go wrong having one of these installed. Make certain who ever installs it, has experience doing so. There is little room for error.

Malm

Thanx guys, I cant say the gunsmith that will most likely be installing this is totally a pro at it. Dont get me wrong, he is a skilled gunsmith, just he screwed up on my brother's installation, although he fixed his mistake for free and explained exactly what was the problem. I guess for $70, he better fix it for free.

David,

With me being in Australia, I can't say who is OK in America. But maybe G.Malmborg in the above post would be a good starting point.

While one of the disadvantages quoted is the cut throught the bolt counterbore, that in my opinion is more than offset by the correct conversion allowing the case head to be further into the chamber. The Rem 700 system requires more case head protrusion from the chamber than other actions.

Mike

I have done literally hundreds of these Sako extractor mods. They must be done correctly, I cannot emphasize that enough. I have made prints of the installation and about the only one I would not recommed is the conversion using the sako Magnum extractor on a magnum cartridge. It does not work. Use the 308 size instead. The magnum extractor is too wide and has a tendency to eject the cartridge case at too high a departure angle and the brass hits the scope and knocks it back into the loading port. All the others work well. I just finished doing a 721 bolt because it's original extractor had failed. Apparently these original extractors are no longer available and this is the only viable alternative.

Is the Sako extractor you speak of the same as the extractor on current model Sako 75's or is it from the older design?

Jim,

Yup, I've had a few of these magnums come in where the ejected brass was bouncing back into the ejection port after hitting the scope due to the high eject path. What I ended up doing with these was to shift the grip on the case more towards the right by removing the furthest left corner of the extractor. This theoretically moved the grip on the case head more to the right which corrected the departure angle.

One other problem I've seen, though rare, is interference between the top of the extractor at the front and the breech extension that surrounds the bolt head. Grinding a stepped surface on the first .200 of the extractor cleared the problem. This problem occurred because who ever installed the barrel, went for a tight fit between the bolt head and extension which prevented the extractor from pivoting out as it moved over the case head. I've not seen this problem with a factory barrel.

This modification is indeed the answer for the thousands of Rem 721's, 22's and 25's still out and about...

Regards,

Malm

Could one of you guys measure a Sako extractor and tell me how wide and long it is??

I installed one about 1970 and it failed so I started making my own. I'm just wondering how different they are. It's a PITA to make them and I might make the switch.

Jack,

The one I use is the McMillan. It measures .590 in length and .220 in width. Brownells offer a couple of other brands as well, but the McMillan's have always worked well for me so I stick with these.

I too had made my own based on the M-16 style back in the early 80's but when these from McMillan came on scene, I gave one a try and have been using them since.

Regards,

Malm

I went ahead and did it. I put the Sako extractor on my 7mm. At first I had difficulty getting it to chambered certain rounds and I was very disappointed in it. I took it to the gunsmith and politely explained the problems. He played around with it a little, tuned it, and it has worked fine every since. Ejection is much more positive--cases are thrown well clear of the rifle even when action is worked slowly. Now that it is working, I don't have any complaints. Was it worth the money, for me, yes. For you, maybe. You'll never know until you try it.

I used to use the extractor from the BSA CF2 It was easily done and was a good extractor. I ran out of them years ago so switched to the Sako style. Not quite as easily done but not bad and they work fine. I have opened up the face and reistalled the Remington extractor but it is a pain in the butt to do. Regards, Bill

One of the benefits of going to a different extractor on the Remingtons, is that with the bolt face exposed prior to the actual machining, you can take the opportunity to true, square or clean up the bolt face without worrying about inducing slop in the original configuration. That alone has to be a benefit.

Regards,

Malm

I've owned and still own numerous M700's along with a bunch of M70's classics and pre 64's. After thousands of round fired in all of them. I've yet to have a single feed or extraction problem with any of them. But I've heard it's really scary.

I was talking to my gunsmith,who is a dyed in wool M70 fan,and asked just how many remington extractors he had to fix or had seen fail in his 30 years of smithing. He replied zero. He went on to state that the biggest problem he's seen with the M700 is idiots who load them to hot and end up destroying at the minimum the entire bolt face,or ripping the gun in half. He also said the sako extractor method is mostly just the paranoid buying into all the CRF bullshit and because installing sako extractors is like adjusting triggers for 50 bucks a pop,there damn near all profit with little effort involved. So needless to say most smiths love doing them.

Should you see a seam where the new boltface-rim is sweated in? On my brother's you can see a seam where the new insert was soldered into place. And being as I am planning on rebarreling my rifle, would this extractor be something to mention when I get the barrel chambered/installed? Most people recrommend that when installing a new barrel, that you get the threads chased, would this effect how far back the barrel goes? And if so, would it cause a problem with the SAKO-extractor?

RMK----

I've been a gunsmith for 33 years and have replaced at least a hundred M-600/700 extractors and I'd *guess* at least half of them had never shot a handload. I've seen two that were missing half the extractor when they came out of the box.

"CRF Bullshit" has nothing to do with a Sako-style extractor. Neither the Remington or the Sako are CRF. The change is made for reliability, nothing else.

You cannot destroy a M-700 bolt face with any overload and "Ripping the gun in half" is physically impossible to do no matter what you load in it.......

Anybody that puts 2 hours in a project that takes a milling machine, and a lathe, special (read that as expensive) tooling, and fixtures, takes skill and knowledge of machining and soldering to do, AND has a risk of monetary loss if it's screwed up....for FIFTY dollars is an idiot. I charge $125 think that's a Hell of a bargain for the amount of work and tools it takes to do it.

For the sake of your gunsmith's reputation it would be a good idea to label your post as *your* (mis-informed) opinion and not his utter ignorance.

Oh yeah......nearly forgot the smiley face.

David Boren---

You'll always see a seam for the bushing. All that bushing does is make the face smaller. It has nothing but a little hoop-strength to add mechanically.

Cleaning the receiver threads has nothing to do with the distance between the receiver face and the bolt face. Whoever does the barrelling accounts for any changes made.

The only dowside for the Sako-style extractors are that they change the gas sealing design of the Remingtons.

It's been my experience this is an unfounded concern. I've seen some VERY hot loads swell the bolt rim and break the extractor but it didn't come out. .......... I won't do them for left handed shooters on a right hand rifle, though.

Thanks belk,I forgot you are the foremost expert on gunsmithing,or so you like to let on. Not to mention I never said he charges 50 dollars for the conversion,just that the profit margin is on par with a 50 dollar trigger job. In fact you're about the only smith I've heard of and on the net no less, thats witnessed that many failures. Hell I've talked to smiths that did factory work for remington,that haven't seen half that many extractor problems combined. There are plenty of other things to go wrong,that do go wrong on a M700 besides an extractor. Considering that you love to pimp out anything mauser,further makes the numbers you're
quoting questionable.


Wether you can rip a M700 in half or not,I could care less. But to say it's impossible is crazy,anything is possible,especially with something man made.

Crf has everything to do with installing a sako extractor. Since everyone wants the legendary peformance of the massive claw,in their lowly M700. No the sako extractor doesn't make it true CRF,but it's a band aid in that direction,there is little arguement in that.

[ 11-05-2002, 05:18: Message edited by: RMK ]

Whoa Jack, settle down a bit after that one. Here is the reply and I wil try to settle everyone. It is true, the Sako extractor is not a catch-all. What I like about it is its ability to replace something that is no longer available and obsolete and it also trues up the bolt face and allows a better fit between the cartridge and bolt to center it up with the chamber. Jack, the ones I use are SAKO and I get them from Beretta who now ownd SAKO. They are about .174" wide and I use a 5/32 carbide end mill to mill the slot and open it up about .010" on a side for a slot of about .176"-.178", Thius works out well. I can send a copy of my print if you like. I do not like the McMillan or other type of exctractors. They do not fit nor perform to my likeing. Malm....You hit the nail on the head. I did the same thing; removed some material from the side of the extractor and it worked. I went so far one time after exhausting all other avenues to add another ejector pin to push the case out in the right direction. Man, I pondered that one for quite a while.

'Nuf said on this one.

Jim

I didnt mean to start some penis-envy, mine's better than yours fued. I personally see that the advantages seem to outweigh the disadvantages, and I dont know what brand my gunsmith uses, but it works nice on my brothers. And will the installation of this extractor get in the way of or hinder the installation of a G. David Tubb SpeedLok Titanium firing pin?

Jim Kobe----

Thanks for the dims. I make mine .187 and use a carbide 3/16 end mill. It takes a LOT of hand fitting on mine, but once they've pulled a couple sticky ones I trust them. I had trouble with the Sakos about 1969 and just haven't gone back....but I might! I'm getting too lazy to bend over the mill that long to make my own.

Can you scan and email that print? I'd like to compare notes. I'll have to make one and measure it for my print.

I would like to hear opinions on what happens, or could happen with a case head failure. I read a account by a seemingly honest fellow who lost his right eye when the extractor let loose in such a event. dempsey

It is entirely possible for the Sako extractor as used in a 700 to jump ship inthe event of a case head failure. Because it is partially contained by the barrel counterbore, however, it may not actually exit the receiver. I have seen extractors from mausers, Rugers, and M 70s take flight under the same circumstances.
Sako rifles have a guide rib/gas block (you know. The one that slides forward and locks the bolt shut when you least expect it)that prevents the exit of the extractor. One could fit a collar with an integral block to the Remington bolt (kind of like a Savage 110) to perform the same function if he was really bothered by it.
I have always felt that the main reason the Sako extractor (or others)was popular was simply because it was (and is) much easier to convert to a Sako than to try and fit a Remington extractor when opening up the face. That undercut is not round or just eccentric and is truly a pain in the ass to cut.
The use of the Sako style extractors really caught on in the mid to late 70s when BR gunsmiths everywhere were converting Rem 222s to the ppc boltface. With the demise of the 722 extractor there was another reason for conversion.
I never saw as many bad 700s as Jack has, though as a Remington warranty 'smith I saw quite a few. Jack is a lot older than I though which could explain it Regards, Bill.

Dempsey and BlackBart---

I had a bunch written then hit the wrong button…I HATE it when that happens!!

The Sako-style extractor is in the 4:30 position when looked at from the rear and the bolt in the closed position. That means there’s nothing to keep gas leakage from going DIRECTLY into the right eye of a left-handed shooter.

The only experiment I’ve ever run on one of these was a 243 M-600 that had been shot with resized 308 brass and a very hard bolt closure, according to the customer. It swelled the bolt head bad enough the barrel had to be removed, the bolt handle removed and the bolt driven out the front. The barrel threads galled when removed and pretty much ruined the action. I installed a Sako-style extractor in the new bolt face and put an old 30-06 barrel on the munged-up action…. (all it needed was one shot) and loaded enough Unique in it to assure a bad wreck.

The barreled action was wrapped in registry paper and then housed in a box with aluminum foil inside to register impacts and penetrations.

The extractor broke but no large pieces escaped. Gas cutting was moderately severe on the right side and could have put out the right eye of a left-handed shooter. Even though the extractor shattered it still seemed to seal in the barrel recess enough to contain a considerable amount of escaping gasses and debris.

The Remington bolt actions are a “sealed breech” design. The only gas routes (right side of the receiver and left side of the bolt) are small but pretty effective. The cutting through of the bolt face rim changes the design of the action for sure. I don’t think it’s a problem for a right handed shooter (or left handed shooter with a left-handed action.). When a Remington fails *somebody* bleeds!! Fortunately failures are very rare and usually the result of a purposeful attempt to blow it up.

The bolt face has to be bushed no matter the case head size. The ejector has to be changed a little to clear the bushing, too. I prefer to alter the ejector and not cut a notch in the bushing, but I’ve seen them done both ways.



This is as close to case head failures as I’ve ever seen in a Remington rifle. Obviously both were VERY high pressure rounds. Neither shooter was hurt and both guns were rebuilt and still shooting. Notice the rims are gone….they swell into the extractor recesses in the bolt face and have to be ripped out.

CFR rifles blow the case head apart and deflect the pieces out the magazine box and the ejection port. The extractor is the first part to fail in CFRs…..by design. I prefer it that way, but still shoot sealed breech rifles nearly every day.

Bill Leeper--- I started early. I was also the only ‘smith in north Florida, south Georgia/Alabama that replaced 700 extractors. My first parts order in 1969 was for 20 Remington extractors. They lasted about a year. Rust plays a VERY big part in Remington extractor failures. Many break trying to break a stuck case out of a bad chamber.

I don't know. The McMillan extractor (Sako style)occupies a depth of .166 for the body and another .150 for the rear pivot post. The counter bore of the Remington breech which surrounds the bolt head is approximately .705 with a Bolt head diameter of around .695 or so. I don't believe there would be room for the Sako type extractors to jump ship so to speak.

The way the extractor is machined to sits down in the body, coupled with a somewhat snug counterbore/bolt head fit, I just cannot immagine an instance where the extractor could get loose from the bolt when locked on a case in battery. The bolts body would stop any rear movement, and the counter bore/bolt head fit is tight enough to stop any side movement.

I believe the molecules that make up the extractor would have to quit holding hands for this to happen. There would have to be, in my opinion, a catastrophic failure of the extractor or bolt to allow this to happen. It is no doubt safe to say, that a failure of this magnitude would bring about a greater concern, but then I could be wrong.

Regards,

Malm

Has anyone used JB Weld to fill the extractor groove and then turned it out with the lathe at the same time truing the bolt face so to leave the bolt alone? What are your thoughts on this?

Boy I realy wish I had more Tech knoweldge,have enjoyed the post so far.One question can a Sako type be fitted to the Savage 110?

Black Bart:
The sako extractor conversionhas to have a bushing installed due to the severe undercut of the factory bolt for the standard factory installed extractor. I understand there are some smiths out there who simply remove the existing one and simply mill the slot for the extractor.

Jack, print coming. An addendum though, those 3/16" extractors you are thinking of or have used previously, seem a bit wide. I tried using some of the ones from McMillan but they did not work. One of the problems being the width. They caussed the angle of ejection of the case, caused it to hit the scope. You need the narrowest extractor you can get by with and the cut has to be as close to the root of the recoil lug as you can get.

The structural integretity issue seem to to solved by left handed persons using left handed rifles and right handed people using right handed rifles. Over-all this seems to be a better design. And with the bushing installed correcting, wouldnt it make the bolt-face stronger? The rim around the bolt-face is pretty slim with the Remington undercut, so even with the slot cut out to make way for the new extractor, wouldnt thickening the boltface walls with the bushing make it stronger? And when the bolt is closed, that extractor couldnt fly anywhere anyways (as stated before). JBelk, that was some test you did, gave me a lot of insight. Thanx guys for all the info, this helped a lot.

David,

The bushing has nothing to do with the bolt face or it's strength. The bushing replaces that area that was once occupied by the original extractor. Installing the bushing assures that the rim of the cartridge will not hang up on the undercut portion of the edge which can interfere with reliable feeding. If you do not include this as part of the modification, then you are compromising reliability which is probably the reason you would have this done to begin with. It doesn't make sense to perform this modification if the result isn't 100 percent reliable...

Regards,

Malm

I think I will have to take exception to the last comment on strength. I believe, using a 4140 steel bushing installed in the bolt face would make the nose of the bolt stronger than the original Remington due to the addition of material and Remington's undercut of the bolt for the extractor.

A final note Jack, when doing the conversion, I normally turn the nose of the bolt concentric with the body and then bore the counterbore in the barrel to about a .002"-.003" clearance to support the bolt and keep it concentric with the chamber. When doing the magnum bolt face, as was discussed earlier, when the extractor cams over the cartridge rim, without any modification to the extractor and a tight bolt/barrel counterbore fit, the extractor does not have enough clearance to snap over the cartridge rim. One needs to grind a bit of clearance as discussed earlier.

Jim,

Read Davids question and then my comment again. David asked if the bushing would make the "bolt face" stronger, not the "bolt nose". Like I said, it does nothing for the strength of the "bolt face". I went on to explain the need for the bushing. That said, of course it strengthens the "bolt nose", anytime you are adding material to fill a void you are reinforcing that piece.


Regards,

Malm

Sorry, never knew the correct terminology was "bolt nose". And who said anything about not using the bushing, youd have to be a retard not to put it in. I never implied I was gunna not use the bushing. My question was pretty much if it would be stronger than the factory design in the way of the front part of the bolt. Anyways, thanx for the replies.