Hej
I wonder if the copper solvents can harme the steel ? any comments?
regards
YES

Some of the aggresive copper solvents can, Sweets762 is a good example as it contains ammmonia which is bad stuff if left in too long. Most are ok to leave in for awhile.

READ THE DIRECTIONS.

Terry

Rubbish. Sweets states on the label that it will NOT harm barrel steel.
The rub is that it will NOT protect barrel steel either.

Put Sweet's 7.62 on some barrel you don't care about. Come back the next day and clean it off. Notice the pits?

Put Shooter's Choice on overnight, and no pits, but it does not dissolve Copper as fast.

I have a 222 with a new barrel. I ruined the original CM barrel with Shooter's Choice.

Having many times left the SC overnight to soak with no ill effects, this particular time I forgot about it. For two weeks.

Apparently after it dries the residue is hygroscopic and/or corrosive. The CM barrel was tiny pits from end to end, worse at the muzzle, which had been down for soaking.

Still use it? Sure. Best at removing powder fouling.

Pay attention? Haven't screwed anything else up with it YET.

Don't let it DRY.

Calhoon sells GT40, which smells and looks suspiciously like Shooter's Choice, but is much cheaper.

Ammonia won't hurt a barrel by itself. I often take old pawn shop or gun show finds and plug the breech, fill it with 28% ammonia from the print shop and leave it a day or three to disolve the years of neglect and bad cleaning. But it has to be plugged at both ends to block oxygen and prevent evaporation. This is an old 20th century armorer's trick from the Army to salvage barrels abused in combat.

The only time I frosted a barrel with Sweet's, I forgot the golden rule and used it on top of another brand of cleaner. The unintentional combination of chemicals can create serious problems for barrel steel.

tiggertate- What do you neutralize your sweets or SC with?

What ever cleaner one uses to remove copper and lead fouling from a barrel has the potential to harm the under lying substrate . Which ever metal it is barrel steel or SS .

How ever if used as directed it's safe enough to do what it was intended to do .

I clean my weapons at the very first opportunity that presents it's self after usage , I also use SC as well as Mil Spec C-372B 6850-224-6657 this is an OLD formula .Viet Nam era ( I still have cases of it ) .

I also use copper out by SC as well as Kroil and so many other brands inculding old # 9 .

Hell I even used a Outers foul out rod 3 on a couple of old well worn A3 and Garand barrels .
Funny thing with those Before I used the rod I never saw any rifling what so ever . I had scrubbed those bores with everything one could think of including Butches Bore paste . Didn't touch squat !.

When after two days on the rod and the light finally went green ( I also changed the solution 4 times on one barrel ) I was flat shocked as there was rifling the bore mind you was pitted ugly ugly but I saw rifling which I had never seen before .

That very weapon today shoots .685-.890" With hand loads of course , all day long after firing 6 fouling shots . Now that made a believer out of me . I don't know if all the cleaning is responsible for that or not and don't care either .

I how ever DON'T recommend using that system on a new or decent bore !.

I had nothing left to lose other than the price of a new barrel plus it's installation .

The Wife bought the Outers 3 for my birthday bless her heart !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
tiggertate- What do you neutralize your sweets or SC with?

I haven't really neutralized it with anything; that would require inducing some sort of acid into the bore. I just make sure I get it all out with dry patches followed by an oiled one.

I have been known to pour a small shot of acetone through my bore when I wanted to push a dry patch and check for dirt. Other than that, all I ever use is rubbing alchohol on a patch to clean oil out before using an Outer's Foul-Out. That is a last resort technology for me.

I've never had a problem in that regard and I've been using Sweet's since the mid 80s.

I'll go with tiggertate. I used to keep a piece of SS barrel in a container of Sweets. It was in over a year without damage. You could have a problem if mixed with certain chemicals? I make my own bore cleaner a gal. at a time. 8 oz. white ammonia, 8 oz. Kroil, and the rest GM top Engine cleaner. I check my cleaning with a borescope. I have not had a barrel ruined by cleaning or cleaning solvents. On my BR rifles I clean after each group. 1 wet patch, 2 dry patches, copper brush with solvent 1 stroke per each round shot. Usually 7-15 rounds. 2 dry patches to patch it out. I put a wet patch in to soak while I reload. 2 patches to dry the bore.I finish by putting a patch through with moly bore prep and 1 dry patch. I use Isso every 50 rounds, short stroking at the throat and near the muzzle.
I hate to bore you with this, but it is about what 95% of the BR shooters regimen is about.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I'll go with tiggertate. I used to keep a piece of SS barrel in a container of Sweets. It was in over a year without damage. You could have a problem if mixed with certain chemicals? I make my own bore cleaner a gal. at a time. 8 oz. white ammonia, 8 oz. Kroil, and the rest GM top Engine cleaner. I check my cleaning with a borescope. I have not had a barrel ruined by cleaning or cleaning solvents. On my BR rifles I clean after each group. 1 wet patch, 2 dry patches, copper brush with solvent 1 stroke per each round shot. Usually 7-15 rounds. 2 dry patches to patch it out. I put a wet patch in to soak while I reload. 2 patches to dry the bore.I finish by putting a patch through with moly bore prep and 1 dry patch. I use Isso every 50 rounds, short stroking at the throat and near the muzzle.
I hate to bore you with this, but it is about what 95% of the BR shooters regimen is about.
Butch

Good God it's wore out before you even shoot it!

When do you feel it's necessary to put a bronze bore brush through the bore ? . How many rounds average on a properly broke in barrel ?.

I'm curious as to when others do this .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Rubbish. Sweets states on the label that it will NOT harm barrel steel.
The rub is that it will NOT protect barrel steel either.

JAL, I'll use restraint and repeat, Sweeet762 contains ammonia and WILL etch your barrel if you leave it in too long.

Terry

BR barrels shoot best clean and with the cleaning rod guides and rods that I use shows no barrel wear from cleaning. They quit shooting as well as we like after about 1200-1500 rounds. We make dies or tomato stakes out of them. A good barrel doesn't need breaking in and I haven't seen a brass brush that ruined a barrel when using the proper rod and rod guides. A carbon ring can form in the throat and strip copper jacket material off the bullets. That is why I Isso the throat.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Rubbish. Sweets states on the label that it will NOT harm barrel steel.
The rub is that it will NOT protect barrel steel either.

JAL, I'll use restraint and repeat, Sweeet762 contains ammonia and WILL etch your barrel if you leave it in too long.

Terry

I think it is more a matter of the ammonia or other organics breaking down into more corrosive compounds. There are some sulphur compounds in some cleaners that react with oxygen and water plus fouling to create acids that attack iron if left too long.

But in a sealed bore I never had a lick of trouble, even with 28% ammonium hydroxide. For reference, household ammonia is usually a 3-5% solution. When you take the lid off a gallon jug of 28%, you clear the room PRONTO!

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

JAL, I'll use restraint and repeat, Sweeet762 contains ammonia and WILL etch your barrel if you leave it in too long.

Terry

And I'll repeat. It specifically states on the label it will NOT harm barrel steel. Terry, Sweets makes the stuff and has been doing so for years.
They also state to patch it out within 15 minutes.
As I understand it, the ammonia evaperates quickly, so there is no point to NOT patching it out, as it is water based.

WATER, guess what that does to barrel steel?

So, Sweets is harmless to barrel steel, if you clean it out within 15 minutes, then you can safely put MORE in for another go round and so on for as long as you wish.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Rubbish. Sweets states on the label that it will NOT harm barrel steel.
The rub is that it will NOT protect barrel steel either.

JAL, I'll use restraint and repeat, Sweeet762 contains ammonia and WILL etch your barrel if you leave it in too long.

Terry

Yes, amonia will etch the barrel. The guys up at Hart Rifle Barrels recommend leaving Sweets in the barrel no longer than 20 minutes. I stop at 15 minutes, just to be safe.

Don

Ammonia has alkaline properties and is corrosive. Yes, it will etch your barrel. I speak from personal experience. I did it with Sweets7.62 back when I was absalutely positive it wouldn't hurt anything.


I would agree that if you get the stuff out in a short length of time it's OK.

Like I said in my 1st post. READ THE DIRECTIONS

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
...But in a sealed bore I never had a lick of trouble, even with 28% ammonium hydroxide....

Julian hatcher explained using "ammonia dope" in his book. sometimes he had no problems with a sealed bore full, sometimes the bore was ruined. IIRC he used high-test ammonia, and persulphate and something else. anyways, they were never able to determine why sometimes the bores were ruined, so they gave up on the sealed-bore-soaking method. pretty interesting stuff.

Ammonia is hydroscopic, in other words, moisture from the air will collect at the spot where ammonia is. Although Ammonia is alkali, it usually takes hours to etch the metal, keep it to less than 5-10 minutes in the bore and you will be ok. After wet patching, dry patch out Ammonia and follow up with CLP.

John

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
Yes, amonia will etch the barrel. The guys up at Hart Rifle Barrels recommend leaving Sweets in the barrel no longer than 20 minutes. I stop at 15 minutes, just to be safe.

Don

That is likely becausre Hart Rifle barrels only makes stainless steel barrels.

I'm not sure about Sweets but Barnes with their "CR-10" copper remover and BoreTech both recommend leaving their ammonia based copper remover in contact with STAINLESS STEEL barrels for no more than 15minutes.

Ammonia may be a "base" but Bases aren't normally harmful to steel except for the fact that most are hydroscopic and when they react they create even more hydroscopic salts.

Bases are often used to strip corrosion and clean surfaces without leaving even more corrosive by products the way most acids do.

ammonia in specific should not be considered harmful to barrel steels, stainless being the exception because Ammonia attacks Nickel every bit as agressively as it does the copper it is being used to remove.

What dammages the barrel when ammonia based cleaners is left in a rifle barrel for an extended length of time is the water the ammonia is invariably diluted with.

Ammonia "break down"? only into hydrogen and nitrogen. Ammonia's chemical formula is NH4.
It is a methane analog with a nitrogen atom taking the place of the carbon atom in methane's CH4.


Ammonia in water is "Corrosive" because ammonia
removes oil, as well as the "protective" layer of propellant fouling that is soluble in the ammonia while it isn't in either water or oil.

AD

hyGroscopic, not hydroscopic.

and ammonia is NH3, not NH4. NH4 is ammonium. NH4+ is the ammonium ion.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Some of the aggresive copper solvents can, Sweets762 is a good example as it contains ammmonia which is bad stuff if left in too long. Most are ok to leave in for awhile.

READ THE DIRECTIONS.
Terry

Any ammonia based solvent over about twenty percent could harm a 4140 steel barrel depending how long you leave it in the bore. I've used Sweets for many years in many countries and never had a problem< but if you REALLY have a fouling problem And you know what your doing, the Mercury treatment and a lapping by a COMPETENT gunsmith will probably be the answer.

Amonia will etch a barrel if left in the barrel too long and is worse in high humidity.. I use Wipe Out, and I use a mix of 25% amonia and Hydrogen perxiode and that stuff will ruin a barrel overnight and I have seen this happen..Clean these copper solvents out of your bore and oil them or give them a good coat of WD-40 before puttting them up...

Sweets has an oil base so it probably won't hurt a bore, but I wouldn't bet my bore on it..I want all cleaning solvent out and oil in.

I presume the original poster was talking of commercial solvents.

The answer is no they won't harm the bore, when used as directed.

Someone has only to mention ammonia to US shooters and everything goes to hell.
People use ammonia in ultra strength, plug up barrels, add other weird chemicals, and then wonder at the result.

This finaly (I hope) from the Sweet's 7.62 label.

HARMLESS TO STEEL, NON ACID, WITH 5% AMMONIA.

(also)"Repeat procedure (ie using) until blue discolouring ceases. (ie continued use will NOT harm barrel.

Then this; Don't leave in barrel longer than 15 minutes.

As far as I know, this is not a warning that the heavens will fall or your boots will rot off, but being WATER BASED, it will dryout and do no more good. BUT you can apparently (by the lable) continue to refresh with MORE sweets with out harm.

Finaly, "when finished cleaning, use a rust preventive."

Flammen 'ell.

JAL, the reason I disagree with you is because I have frosted over a barrel with exact product you say is harmless.

Sweet 7.62 will etch barrel steel if you leave in too long.


Terry

I wouldn't know really, just going by my experences and the label.

Your example for instance may depend on how long you left this goop on/in.
I've read reports where posters state the ammonia evaperates in about 10 minutes (by a smell test). This would leave other stuff, and moisture to do their worst.

I've also heard stories of SS barrels going dark, but strangly mine didn't. And a gunsmith I know had a piece of SS barrel soaking in the stuff for months to see if it would do anything.
Zilch. (But then I can see a difference between a total immersion and air dried.)

Heck, I just reckoned that over all the years Sweet's has been sold, if it really ruined barrels they'd be out of business by now.
I've left it in a barrel for about a week with occasional wipes and re use.

And I wouldn't call it aggressive, takes me a few goes to get rid of light and recient copper.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:


This finaly (I hope) from the Sweet's 7.62 label.

HARMLESS TO STEEL, NON ACID, WITH 5% AMMONIA.

Flammen 'ell.

There are at least two types of knowledge, cognitive and salient.
Reading the label give some cognitive knowledge [resting lightly in my brain].
Remembering the pits etched in my barrel, left overnight with Sweet's, is salient [burned into my emotions].
There is an axiom that salient knowledge is hard to change with cognitive.

I have found that, regardless of which solvent I use, IF I patch it out in a few minutes of applying it, and after finishing up with the solvent, swab the bore liberally with patches saturated with BIRCHWOOD CASEY SHEATH, the bores are perfectly preserved w/o damage of any sort. The guns can then be stored until next use, whether that be tomorrow or next year.......

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
...Remembering the pits etched in my barrel, left overnight with Sweet's.

sweet's doesn't kill barrels. people who think they are too smart and advanced to read so-called "instructions" (incl. "reloading manuals") kill barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

There are at least two types of knowledge, cognitive and salient.

I'm sure it didn't happen in your case, but a third version of knowledge is where you fool yourself.

Somewhere someone has probably neglected a bore, then got into it with the dreaded ammonia, mate says "jees, get that stuff out",
Punter gets crud, carbon, copper, and Sweet's out, looks down the bore carefully for the first time in his life, and holy c***, look at the pits that have suddenly appeared overnight.
Guess what gets the blame?

Heck, I've seen pits in barrels that haven't seen solvents in their life.

In my case it was a bull barrel I had just chambered and crowned. There was to bluing. I left Sweet's in over night with some splattered on the crown. There were pits etched into the crown around the muzzle in the morning.

What does it all mean?
The pits the Sweet's makes overnight are more easily seen on the crown, than in the bore.