Does anyone know of a company making match grade barrels for FAL/L1A1 rifles? Contact information would be very much appreciated. Also, any accurizing tips for the FAL/L1A1.
DSArms (www.dsarms.com) has match chambered barrels for FALs in many lengths and weights. I believe these are made by Badger barrels. The biggest problem in accurizing a FAL is getting a good trigger, and as far as I know, there are no good aftermarket triggers for this gun (if anyone knows differently, please let me know).
Posts: 238 | Location: Memphis on the mighty Mississippi | Registered: 19 December 2002
Orion1, let me get the match barrel first. The rifle is currently only shooting ~ 4 MOA with surplus and ~ 3 MOA with match grade ammo. Remember after you "kick my ass" shooting with the military iron sighted rifles you must indulge me and shoot the big bores to the same events.
quote:Originally posted by Axel: Strawboss, thanks!
Orion1, let me get the match barrel first. The rifle is currently only shooting ~ 4 MOA with surplus and ~ 3 MOA with match grade ammo. Remember after you "kick my ass" shooting with the military iron sighted rifles you must indulge me and shoot the big bores to the same events.
Axel
I will kick your ass shooting any rifle, in any caliber, at any distance you care to name.
You can cite all the bullshit MOA figures you like. We'll find out just how good you are at positions, zeroes, come ups, and reading wind. The rifle won't shoot for you.
Sucker
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
Orion1, I cannot honestly say what size groups I can shoot at those ranges without support. I am a hunter first, and foremost, I do not make long shots like THAT WITHOUT support!!! Being a good sport though I would take up your challenge.
How about the Detroit Sportsman Club. It will most likely be sufficient for you to "whip my ass" with your AR against my FAL. This will particularly be true with iron sights!
What big bore do you own that you can use, or would you like to use mine?
quote:Originally posted by Axel: Orion1, I cannot honestly say what size groups I can shoot at those ranges without support. I am a hunter first, and foremost, I do not make long shots like THAT WITHOUT support!!! Being a good sport though I would take up your challenge.
How about the Detroit Sportsman Club. It will most likely be sufficient for you to "whip my ass" with your AR against my FAL. This will particularly be true with iron sights!
What big bore do you own that you can use, or would you like to use mine?
Axel
I don't have a "big bore". Bring whichever you like for me. I'll let you know whem I'm in Michigan with plenty of time to get you to the range.
Any Highpower rifle match in SE Michigan or northern Ohio will do.
Then again, if I made rifles like you (in my mind), I'd every big bore known to man.
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
Orion1, sound good to me. Do you want to shoot my handloads, or the factory loads for the big bore? The factory loads are not neary as accurate as the handloads are!
Do I understand your previous post that if you win the military rifle match you get my FAL? I am fine with this; however, if I win the big bore shoot you must pay me the fair market value of my big bore. We could also just do this all for fun and bragging rights. Let me know.
quote:Originally posted by Axel: Do I understand your previous post that if you win the military rifle match you get my FAL? I am fine with this; however, if I win the big bore shoot you must pay me the fair market value of my big bore. We could also just do this all for fun and bragging rights. Let me know.
Axel
No, you don't understand my previous post, since I have not mentioned any kind of wager. That bet is another figment of your fertile imagination.
In any case, I'm not interested in your rifles. The FAL is an inaccurate piece of shit no matter what you do to it, and I have no use for a "big bore".
What I am interested in is your cash. A Regional Match course of fire is 20 rounds for record plus 2 sighters each at 200 yards standing slow fire, 200 yds sitting rapid fire, 300 yds prone rapid fire, and 600 yds prone slow fire, plus the aggregate score of all. I'll take $1000 from you for evey one of those stages of fire that I win plus the aggregate. That makes it $5K that you will lose.
Once your pocket stops hurting, we'll play for money with the big bores.
I hope you have a large bank account.
BTW, what do you propose as a course of fire with your "big bores"? I say we do the same as the Regional Match course of fire, but at distances appropritate to the caliber.
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
Orion1, I suggest we use the exact same events and ranges for the big bores. Believe me they are capable of MUCH more damage at 600 yards than you little mouse gun AR is!! You will also need to have a MUCH better understand of bullet drop too. I also suggest that any monies exchanged happen after the conclusion of both matches!
Of course since this is service rifle shooting we should have someone shooting back at us. We could see how well you are then, no? Afterall, that is how a service rifle is truly used in the field! The big bore shooting will not require any animal charges since there is NO danger from wild beasts at ranges of 200+ yards!! So no need to increase the pressure!
What kind of off hand groups sizes are you getting with that AR of your's. I would guess that I could shoot ~8"-10" group or better at 200 yards without any support, which means NO sling. I would guess this would increase to ~ 24"-30" group at 300 yards. Are we alllowed to use a sling for the off-hand shooting?
Unfortunately, there are no 600 yard ranges in the this area. The Detroit Sportsman Club range is only 200 yards long. There is also a 300 yard range west of the Metro area too. IF we use one of these local ranges I suggest we forego with the "sighters" and start off right away. Why do we need "sighters" for 200 or 300 yard shots!
Finally, I suggest that since you insist on $1000 per event that you have the cash up front just in case YOU lose! That means that each of us would have $10,000 on us to cover the possibility that we lose both matches! No checks!
quote:Originally posted by Orion 1: In any case, I'm not interested in your rifles. The FAL is an inaccurate piece of shit no matter what you do to it, and I have no use for a "big bore".
quote:Originally posted by ksduckhunter: FAL. FAL. FAL.
Why would anyone spending $400 to $600 for a military rifle buy something else is beyond me.
The US Army should have just adopted the FAL in .280 British, instead of the M-14/7.62 NATO fuck up.
If they had, it would still be the standard service rifle of the US.
At first glance, this seems to be an endorsement of "an inaccurate piece of shit."
What am I missing here?
TIA.
Recono
[ 06-04-2003, 21:06: Message edited by: Recono ]
Posts: 2272 | Location: PDR of Massachusetts | Registered: 23 January 2001
quote:Originally posted by Axel: Orion1, I suggest we use the exact same events and ranges for the big bores. Believe me they are capable of MUCH more damage at 600 yards than you little mouse gun AR is!! You will also need to have a MUCH better understand of bullet drop too. I also suggest that any monies exchanged happen after the conclusion of both matches!
Of course since this is service rifle shooting we should have someone shooting back at us. We could see how well you are then, no? Afterall, that is how a service rifle is truly used in the field! The big bore shooting will not require any animal charges since there is NO danger from wild beasts at ranges of 200+ yards!! So no need to increase the pressure!
What kind of off hand groups sizes are you getting with that AR of your's. I would guess that I could shoot ~8"-10" group or better at 200 yards without any support, which means NO sling. I would guess this would increase to ~ 24"-30" group at 300 yards. Are we alllowed to use a sling for the off-hand shooting?
Unfortunately, there are no 600 yard ranges in the this area. The Detroit Sportsman Club range is only 200 yards long. There is also a 300 yard range west of the Metro area too. IF we use one of these local ranges I suggest we forego with the "sighters" and start off right away. Why do we need "sighters" for 200 or 300 yard shots!
Finally, I suggest that since you insist on $1000 per event that you have the cash up front just in case YOU lose! That means that each of us would have $10,000 on us to cover the possibility that we lose both matches! No checks!
Axel
First off, dickweed, this isn't about how much damage one rifle can cause vs. the other. Dead is dead. Don't make idiotic statements that you can't back up like this:
quote:Of course since this is service rifle shooting we should have someone shooting back at us.
This is about finding out just how good a marksman you are.
If you think you don't need sighters, I'll oblige. We'll shoot under Civilian Marksmanship Program rules, which do not allow sighters. CMP competition rules
Suit yourself.
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
quote:Originally posted by Orion 1: In any case, I'm not interested in your rifles. The FAL is an inaccurate piece of shit no matter what you do to it, and I have no use for a "big bore".
quote:Originally posted by ksduckhunter: FAL. FAL. FAL.
Why would anyone spending $400 to $600 for a military rifle buy something else is beyond me.
The US Army should have just adopted the FAL in .280 British, instead of the M-14/7.62 NATO fuck up.
If they had, it would still be the standard service rifle of the US.
At first glance, this seems to be an endorsement of "an inaccurate piece of shit."
What am I missing here?
TIA.
Recono
What you're missing is the fact that the M-14 was adopted unilaterally by the United States in spite of the fact that NATO as a whole wanted to go to a standard rifle for the entire alliance. Had the US gone with the rest of NATO's consensus and used the FAL and the .280 British cartridge, the change to the M-16 probably would have never happened.
As it stands, the M-14 was adopted anyway, and it has the side benefit of being a FAR more accurate rifle than the FAL, which made it the king of NRA highpower service rifle shooting until the M-16A2 was developed enough to handle the heavier .224" bullets needed to beat the M-14/M1A at 600 yards.
Both the M1A and the AR-15 are intrinsically more accurate designs than the FAL, and the FAL will never catch up in the accuracy department, no matter how much money you throw at it.
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
OK, I think I understand now. I guess it just seemed that "piece of shit" was a fairly strong term for a rifle you recommended to someone who had $400-600 to spend on a military rifle.
I don't dispute your descriptions just above. They seem to be true, although I don't have the time or money to prove them locally.
BTW, I think Axel's FAL does need some help, although I couldn't say where. Mine does much better, especially when the replacement long flashhider (the original self-destructed) isn't unthreading itself. He maybe ought to experiment with other ammo or remove or change his flashhider or muzzle brake or whatever he does or doesn't have on the front end of his rifle.
Thanks again.
Posts: 2272 | Location: PDR of Massachusetts | Registered: 23 January 2001
Orion1, Why do you let Axel get to you, you know he would never show up, he'd come up with some excuse. I'd would be a hoot watching him try to get on paper at 600 though! or trying to shoot 300 rapid! I can't make Perry this year because I have a wedding in Ireland. Next year we should meet up, I shoot with the NY team.
Posts: 1541 | Location: NC | Registered: 10 June 2002
quote:Originally posted by KevinNY: Orion1, Why do you let Axel get to you, you know he would never show up, he'd come up with some excuse. It would be a hoot watching him try to get on paper at 600 though! or trying to shoot 300 rapid! I can't make Perry this year because I have a wedding in Ireland. Next year we should meet up, I shoot with the NY team.
[ 06-04-2003, 22:43: Message edited by: KevinNY ]
Posts: 1541 | Location: NC | Registered: 10 June 2002
quote:Originally posted by KevinNY: Orion1, Why do you let Axel get to you, you know he would never show up, he'd come up with some excuse. I'd would be a hoot watching him try to get on paper at 600 though! or trying to shoot 300 rapid! I can't make Perry this year because I have a wedding in Ireland. Next year we should meet up, I shoot with the NY team.
He's not getting to me, Kevin. I'm pushing HIM into a corner because I know that he's all bullshit. My goal is to publicly embarrass his dumb ass and make some money while I'm at it.
I will let you know if I make it to Perry next year. My daughter is at an an age where going this year isn't practical.
[ 06-04-2003, 22:47: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
quote:Originally posted by Major Caliber: Orion has no concept of firearms if he calls the FAL an inaccurate POS!
Join the party and show up for an NRA highpower match with it. Let's see how you do.
Orion 1 You propose an interesting chance. I am not what I would call a great rifle shot but I would be glad to go against you. Let me know your location and I can travel to your range. Thanks DOA
quote:Originally posted by Major Caliber: Orion has no concept of firearms if he calls the FAL an inaccurate POS!
Join the party and show up for an NRA highpower match with it. Let's see how you do.
Orion 1 You propose an interesting chance. I am not what I would call a great rifle shot but I would be glad to go against you. Let me know your location and I can travel to your range. Thanks DOA
Central Kansas Gub Club, Hutchinson, KS. Wait until the fall so that we are shooting full course (to 600 yards) again. Or Mill Creek Rifle and Pistol Club in DeSoto (always to 500 yds). Both their schedules are available here: KS State Rifle Association
One more thing: leave your scoped rifles at home. Metallic sights only.
[ 06-05-2003, 00:56: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
Quote "This is about finding out just how good a marksman you are."
In order to compare apples-apples and oranges-oranges, why don't you fellas use bone-stock service rifles with surplus ammo and each shoot a course of fire then swap guns and shoot again? Highest aggregate score wins.
It would be 'ungentlemanly' to claim victory using an AR with -A2 rear sights (1/2 or 1/4 MOA adjustment) while one's adversary uses the crude adjustment increments that are on FAL rear sights.
The FAL is a superior battle weapon design, even though we all know the AR types are capable of better accuracy because of their lockup design, much better than is even needed to be truthfull.
I know enough about both of them to say that the gas handling system of the FAL is just titties and beer, the AR's make a mess.... piss poor design is all.
I'm sure you'd agree that a great Highpower shooter with a decent FAL would woop ass on a newbie with his bitchin AR.
quote:Originally posted by MBiggs: Quote "This is about finding out just how good a marksman you are."
In order to compare apples-apples and oranges-oranges, why don't you fellas use bone-stock service rifles with surplus ammo and each shoot a course of fire then swap guns and shoot again? Highest aggregate score wins.
It would be 'ungentlemanly' to claim victory using an AR with -A2 rear sights (1/2 or 1/4 MOA adjustment) while one's adversary uses the crude adjustment increments that are on FAL rear sights.
This is about calling the idiot's bluff, as Paul H so eloquently said.
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
The FAL is a superior battle weapon design, even though we all know the AR types are capable of better accuracy because of their lockup design, much better than is even needed to be truthfull.
I know enough about both of them to say that the gas handling system of the FAL is just titties and beer, the AR's make a mess.... piss poor design is all.
I'm sure you'd agree that a great Highpower shooter with a decent FAL would woop ass on a newbie with his bitchin AR.
Axel, do you even own an FAL (in reality)?
quote:How inaccurate do you belive the FAL is normally?
A very high quality FAL (such as a DS Arms), might average about 1.5 MOA, maybe closer to 1 depending on ammo.
Any National Match factory AR-15 will do 1 MOA with good ammo, and 3/4 MOA with good match ammo or quality handloads. Custom built AR-15s by guys like John Holliger and Frank White will do 1/2 MOA consistently.
quote:The FAL is a superior battle weapon design, even though we all know the AR types are capable of better accuracy because of their lockup design, much better than is even needed to be truthfull.
The US has a history of quickly abandoning inadequate or probelmatic service rifles. The Krag Jorgensen and the original 30-03 chambered M1903 come to mind. If the M-16 were such a piece of crap in combat it would have been gone long ago.
As a fact of the matter, the M-16 has overtaken the M1903 as the longest serving front-line service rifle. The M1903 was the official rifle from 1903 to 1936 (when the Garand was officially adopted). The M-16 was officially adopted by the US Army in 1967. That means that the M-16 has exceeded already the 33 year tenure of the 03.
quote:I know enough about both of them to say that the gas handling system of the FAL is just titties and beer, the AR's make a mess.... piss poor design is all.
Yep, their gas systems couldn't be more different. Yet the M-16 soldiers on in every clime and place.......
quote:I'm sure you'd agree that a great Highpower shooter with a decent FAL would woop ass on a newbie with his bitchin AR.
True enough. Yet, the outcome of a match between two equally skilled marksmen (one with an AR-15 and the other with an FAL) is highly predictable.
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
posted 06-03-2003 20:14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone know of a company making match grade barrels for FAL/L1A1 rifles? Contact information would be very much appreciated. Also, any accurizing tips for the FAL/L1A1.
Thanks, Axel
Were did I say that I was some kind of expert marksmen in service rifle competition??? Please tell me were I said this. If you cannot answer the question why do you bother posting? Why attack someone who is only seeking knowledge?
Orion1, you seem to have some SERIOUS social problems! Perhaps after the shooting contest we can have a boxing contest! You may figuratively "whip my ass" shooting, but after the boxing contest I could literally KICK YOUR ASS, no?
I really could care less if you are a better shot than I am. It is no big deal. I suggest you grow up. Afterall, no one likes a braggart, except another braggart that is. It is quite obvious you are NOT a Gentleman no a Sportsman, just a foul, loud mouthed BRAGGART!
The truth is you most likely are not half the shot you claim to be nor can you produce the wager monies in cash! Stay in Kansas and play with you mouse gun. I really have no time for childish little boys like yourself.
Go to www.fnfal.com and look into the forums. You will find all the info you need. Ed Vandenberg will build you a sub-moa FAL. Kreiger will set you up with one of their barrels for about $465.00 without gas block.
Orion 1 - My FALl schedule is pretty full but I'm sure I can get a weekend off. Is the M1 Garand ok with you? I have others to shoot also but it seems you want this type cal. DOA
quote:Originally posted by DOATargets: Orion 1 - My FALl schedule is pretty full but I'm sure I can get a weekend off. Is the M1 Garand ok with you? I have others to shoot also but it seems you want this type cal. DOA
Shoot whatever pleases you, but beware the man with one gun.
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
Orion1, you are a hero to morons everywhere! KevinNY you must be stupid as well. I never challenged anyone to a shooting contest. Regardless why don't you and Orion1 come up and visit. I would go shooting with either of you, however, I do insist that you act like GENTLEMEN and not little boys! I do not knowingly associate with braggarts. I will even shoot with my "piece of shit" FAL! I sincerely hope that you can out shoot it!!
Personally, I would be happy just watching Orion1 trying to keep the Rigby on paper shooting at 300 yards prone! We will of course be using my handloads of 400 grains bullet with 110 gr of IMR 4350. That should develop a nice little flinch!!
Hold on there Axel or whatever your hidden identity and location is. I never challenged you. Your track record here shows signs of a serious emotional problem, searching for acceptance while lying uncontrollably to make yourself feel superior to others. How about you tell me your real name, what you do for a living, and where you live and work. Thats an easy answer for normal people. Now I don't much really care about your answer because we'll never meet, but you should try to be a decent person sometime, people might actually like the real you. I'm sure there is some decency in you somewhere.
Posts: 1541 | Location: NC | Registered: 10 June 2002
quote:Originally posted by Axel: Orion1, you are a hero to morons everywhere! KevinNY you must be stupid as well. I never challenged anyone to a shooting contest. Regardless why don't you and Orion1 come up and visit. I would go shooting with either of you, however, I do insist that you act like GENTLEMEN and not little boys! I do not knowingly associate with braggarts. I will even shoot with my "piece of shit" FAL! I sincerely hope that you can out shoot it!!
Personally, I would be happy just watching Orion1 trying to keep the Rigby on paper shooting at 300 yards prone! We will of course be using my handloads of 400 grains bullet with 110 gr of IMR 4350. That should develop a nice little flinch!!
Axel
What Rigby?
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
quote:Originally posted by KevinNY: Your track record here shows signs of a serious emotional problem, searching for acceptance while lying uncontrollably to make yourself feel superior to others.
Sums it up nicely, doesn't it?
Posts: 2206 | Location: USA | Registered: 31 August 2002
quote: Hold on there Axel or whatever your hidden identity and location is. I never challenged you. Your track record here shows signs of a serious emotional problem, searching for acceptance while lying uncontrollably to make yourself feel superior to others. How about you tell me your real name, what you do for a living, and where you live and work.
I would say that the above quote is a definite challenge. Furthermore, your previous support of Orion1's attack on me is also definitely a challenge! I do not know, nor understand what your problem or Orion1's problem is, but I am certain that you both have PROBLEMS! I have not posted under an alias like you and your friend Orion1! My name is Axel Dempel! I have stated numerous times my occupation. I do not lie. If there are those here that could not comprehend sarcasism that isn't my problem! I am referring to the CZ550 is really a M70 thread from long long ago. If you have nothing positive to add to a thread why do you post? You and Orion1 have contributed NOTHING POSITIVE to this thread. You both have done nothing but attack me! I do not belittle people to make my self feel superior YOU DO!!! I suggest you do some soul searching and ask yourself why you have not contributed positively, and why your contribution took the form of personal attacks against someone merely looking for some information on a source for match barrels! Put bluntly...GET A LIFE!!!!!
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