Hey everyone,

I have been toying with the idea of adding a muzzle break to my .338 Win Mag rifle. The recoil isn't what anything I cannot deal with - it is the recoil my eye cannot tolerate. With that said, I have seen and heard of all the claims of the best on the market, best ever developed, etc. etc.

In terms of reducing recoil without deafening the shooter and kicking up a mountain of dust - what is the better break out there?

I realize that noise levels increase with breaks - but there has to be some out there that are not as loud as others. My cousin uses a magna-port on his .338 and he loves it - minus the overwelming noise. I would be looking for max recoil reduction with tolerable noise levels.

Please fire me some thoughts if anyone has some experience with different breaks.
Thanks
Eric

If you think about it, in order to get maximum effect from a muzzle brake, you have to set up the ports to effectively counter the forces that contribute to recoil. i.e. if the muzzle is coming up, you place a port in the top to shove it back down. If the gun is coming back at you, then you would angle the ports rearward to push the barrel forward. If you angle these ports rearward to any degree, then you increase the noise level at the shooter. Those muzzle brakes with the most holes seem to be the most obnoxious...

Like optics, rifles are a zero sum enterprize. Gain something in one area...lose it in another.

First, it's a brake.

If something breaks, get your money back fast.

Second, they do work and if used on the bench with the big kickers, will really tell you how well they can shoot, without the undoubtedly deleterious influences of undue recoil.

I don't think they're needed on anything below and including a .375, but that's just me and I do have a .338 and a .375 with removable brakes. They keep the kick several calibers down, and are, as a result, amazingly effective in use.

But I NEVER use them in the field. Just too loud.

Forgot to add the website.

http://www.muzzlebrakes.com/

quote:

Originally posted by EricJulsrud:
... it is the recoil my eye cannot tolerate. ...

Hey Eric, Do you mean the Scope is hitting your face above your eye? Or do you have a detached Retina? Something else?

Hotcore,

No I have a synthetic lens in my right eye now. There has been so much damage to my eye and iris that when I am jarred hard the lens has popped out. This causes more damage - obviously!

It has never popped out under recoil yet - but playing tether ball with my son it has. The impact there was far less than a heavy kicking rifle too.

My thoughts were to limit recoil as much as tolerable and still keep using the rifle. This will mean better stock, recoil pad and muzzle "brake" (thank you for the correction - duly notes!).

I am moving to a lighter recoiling rifle too - but I like my ,338 and I am willing to try options to keep using it.

Again - experiences and observations is what I am interested in - thoughts too.

Thanks
Eric

Have you considered a Mercury Brake?

Nope -
what is a mercury brake?

Do they have a website? etc?
Thanks
Eric

Or do you mean a Mercury counter weight?

I am trying to avoid weight as much as possible in my packing rifles - my arms already want to fall off after a day run with rifle already!
Eric

quote:

Originally posted by EricJulsrud:
Or do you mean a Mercury counter weight?

I am trying to avoid weight as much as possible in my packing rifles - my arms already want to fall off after a day run with rifle already!
Eric

If that’s what you want to call them...then yes.

You can‘t have it both ways, my friend. Muzzle breaks, buffers, whatever you use to try and tame recoil is going to add some weight to your rifle. Either way you’re looking at less than a pound.

Lot's of things which have been outlined already to reduce felt and real recoil. That being said if you install a brake consider one at the muzzle and get a ring made to cover the threads should you elect to remove the brake. Further, if you decide you want to permanently remove it you can just have the barrel cut and recrowned rather than replacing the barrel.
I felt the brake actually reduced my second-shot recovery in the field because of the muzzle blast and used it only from the bench. If you do this check your zero with and without the brake attached because my experience was that they differ.

quote:

Originally posted by EricJulsrud:
Hotcore,

No I have a synthetic lens in my right eye now. There has been so much damage to my eye and iris that when I am jarred hard the lens has popped out. This causes more damage - obviously!

It has never popped out under recoil yet

Hey Eric, Just wanted to make sure it wasn't a "Short Eye Relief" Scope issue.

quote:

...My thoughts were to limit recoil as much as tolerable and still keep using the rifle. This will mean better stock, recoil pad and muzzle "brake" ...

We all play some form of balancing act with our rifles. More power at the Point of Impact, large caliber clean entrance holes and less clogging potential double caliber or larger exits, flat trajectory, low report, light weight and mild recoil vs. good old Reality.

One of the excellent Recoil Pads available today simply makes a HUGE difference in felt recoil. Both the Decelerator and the Remington R3 Pads work, and work very well. This would be my very first recommendation. It might be all you need if you do not already have one on it.

The Magna Porting you mention is a right nice, low cost modification that helps keep the recoil coming straight back. Good option that is less noisy than other Muzzle Brakes, but it is not designed to tame the recoil as well as a regular Brake, just hold the muzzle down.

I've heard excellent reports on the 210gr Nosler partition when used on Elk. If that is your main Game animal, and you are using a heavier bullet, you might want to consider this one, or a slightly lighter Barnes TSX.

Reducing the bullet weight can save a HUGE amount of recoil. I prefer "Slow for Cartridge" Powders, but they would work against you as well. Picking a Powder which leans toward the Faster Side will reduce recoil and lessen the report.

For Example, I just flipped open the good old Hodgdon #26. Their 24" barel 338WinMag using 210gr bullets shows:

1. 62gr of H4895 going 2828fps
2. 70gr of H414 going 2928fps
3. 73gr of H4350 going 2920fps

And others are similar, but you give up 100fps with 8gr less H4895 which isn't much velocity loss compared to the reduced recoil.
---

Then we get to the barrel... Yes, a Muzzle Brake will reduce the recoil and make it so you either "have to" hunt with Ear Plugs or just use the Brake when developing Loads.

This "Felt Recoil" stuff is very subjective. If you went to a slightly longer "fluted" barrel and had it Magna Ported, coupled with a Decelerator or R3 Pad and a 210gr(or less weight TSX) with a Fast for caliber Powder(H4895), then you might decide you do not need a Muzzle Brake at all.

You could always re-barrel to a 7mmRemMag if Elk is the largest(and potentially meanest) thing you hunt.

If you are going after critters larger than Elk, or hunt where things would look at you as being a potential dinner for them, then I'd need to change my recommendations slightly.

Anyway, whatever you do, the Best of Luck to you with that eye issue.

Eric,

You might like to post youir muzzle brake question on this forum

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php

It is full of members with every type of brake made.

A mate of mine had one which has a name like Opti or similar (the blokes on the LongRangeHunting site will know it)on a 300 Ultra. However, because it is easier or us to shoot in Australia while wearing muffs/plugs he replaced it with the KDF style which reduced the recoil considerably more but the noise is much greater.

The KDF style brake is the type fitted by Weatherby as standard from 30/378 through to the 460.

The Vais brake has a good reputation for combining recoil reduction with less noise increase than some other brakes. I think Vais is the brake that Lazzeroni supply with their rifles.

Mike

I think you hit on the correct answer, Eric.. Get a smaller caliber. The bright side is with some of the newer bullets, like the TSX, a .260 or 7-08 will shoot through most game and kill convincingly. Or you could take up bowhunting..
Man, don't take unnecessary chances with your eyes. The rest of your life is a long time to be sightless.

Find an old Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5x54, use the 160 grain softpoint, and get within 150 yards. No recoil, little blast, and tremendous penetration.

I use them on large magnums and I like them. No I don't mean safari calibers, I mean big 30cals and 338cals which recoil more sharply IMHO than the larger bores which shove a bit more than they do "crack" back on the shoulder.

I use them for long range work where I need to spot my shot by myself or if I am shooting a match where the rifle needs to be back on "X" quickly. If I use them in the field, I make sure to slip in a plug first. It takes very little time and motion, even with deer being within 25yds.

Breaks Work, Wear Earplugs

Eric

It appears that you have received a lot of replies to your post but only one answer to your question "What is the better brake out there?".

I fit quite a few rifles with muzzle brakes every year and the numbers keep increasing.

I use only two now. Vais is the quitest with very good recoil reduction. The other one is Shrewd, it is 80 % as quite as the Vais and has excellant recoil reduction as well.

If you want to use a local gunsmith I recomend you do some research and make sure he is competant and has satisfied customers. There are a lot of people out there who do not install brakes with the precision and care required.

Another option is to send your rifle to to Ron Bartlet in San Antonio who manufactures the Vais muzzle brake, he will do you an expert job in a timely fashion.

As far as ability to reduce felt recoil I can give you a practical example. Last week I fitted a Sako 300 WSM with a Shrewd brake. When I test fired it, it felt about like a 25-06.

My experience with noise from these two brakes is when fired while hunting where you have open spaces with grass and trees around I as the shooter can not tell any differance at all. When fired from a gun range under a metal roof with concrete floor the Shrewd is maybe 20 % louder than no brake. I can not discern any differance in noise level when using the Vais.

Get a 30-06. Add some lead to the stock. It will do the same job. Use good bullets and get a little closer. Guys kill the largest animals with bows and muzzle loaders. You do not need a hard kicking magnum. It is 95% about your skill as a hunter.

Brakes are a horrible thing, IMHO. They will destroy your hearing. I already have serious hearing loss at age 43. Being deaf is a huge pain in the ass. I have been shooting all my life, in younger years without hearing protection. Get that brake, you could end up deaf too. They are not practical on a hunting rifle since you must use muffs. I will not hunt with anyone shooting a brake equipped rifle. The side blast is withering.

I can recommend a brake that does work in both the felt recoil area, noise and is tuneable.
The fellow also has a tuneable brake with the outlet holes on the top side.

If interested, pm or email me and I can get the contact details.

d.olson@cascadebluing.com

Don

I really appreciate the dialog guys - that's what I wanted to hear is opinions on what is best and why or why not. I know up front that brakes are louder - but - I remember reading a web page about a year ago about a brake that was designed to move the noise and blast away from the shooter in angles 45 ish or something like that....for the life of me I cannot find that page again. Maybe it was all hype or BS - I don't know.

I have other weapons to use for hunting other than my "Cannon" (That's the pet name for my .338). I just love using it due to the fall down and die NOW characteristics of the caliber. I also am a large caliber fan - .444Marlin, 45/70 are my other back up big-bores along with a .54 muzzloader. I am partial to the medium bores too - namely the 30's, .270win, etc. and now I am drifting to the 6.5 bore. I do use lighter bullets in my .338 too - My personal favorite is the 160grn Barnes X. This is a wicked Deer bullet and works well on Elk too is placed properly. Typically for Elk I run a 225 grn X. I am getting ready to try the 180 grainer TSX as a compromise weight so I don't have to re-sight in between seasons.

My next rifle build is supposed to replace my Cannon as my carry all weapon. I have decided to go with the 6.5x55AI Swede. I figure if the caliber has the reputation it does - there has to be something to it! Anyway, I want to give it a try. I am going to re-stock the Cannon for sure - not being totally informed on stocks and designs other than what I read - my thought was a thumbhole sporter to hopefully share the recoil between the shoulder and hand rather than all shoulder. The other option was the Hogue overmolded pillar bedded stock - a friend swears by these as recoil reducing. His 8mm mag wears one of these.

I have been looking at recoil pads too - I have heard good things about the Limbsaver and a couple others too. The decelerator still is a good option too - the ol' standby which I use on most of my other rifles.

Ultimately I want to limit the felt recoil as much as possible on the magnum and if I cannot get it to a tolerable level then I will re-barrel it to a 264mag or trade it for a non-magnum rifle or action.

If there is a brake out there that can actually be tolerable to the shooter I want to see it and start asking the manufacturer questions. I am not a fan of muffs in the field or amplifying/noise reduction plugs. Although I am interested enough to check them out - my complaint as with anything electronic in harsh conditions is the potential of the device failing.

Has anyone dealt with E. Aurthur Brown?
The link to their brakes is this: E. Aurthur Brown

I know they make some nice falling block rifles and was wondering about the brakes they offer. I have heard many times about the Vais brake and it's merits. This brake gets mentioned more than any other I have run across so far. I have been looking and searching for all info I can find on the suggestions posted here. I really appreciate the help.

I am still digging and searching and any thoughts or opinions are still welcome. I am not sold on a brake - but I don't want to rule one out either as an option.

Thanks
Eric

I have the Shrewd on my 300WSM and it works, I guess. My rifle weighs 18 pounds; could that have something to do with it?

I as a custom gun maker have been working with brake design for over 15 years. I have even used an engineer who did super sonic wind tunnel testing on rocket engines for addvice. I cheat he is my father. What I found out is that most of this angled ports, spirled holes, dial in stuff is hype and sales crap!!!! Once gass, ei burned powder velosity excedes the speed of sound it does not like to turn corners. It is true that the speed of sound is dependent on tempriture but none the less the temp. of burning powder and the velosity of the expanding gas do not change this fact.
Anglae holes do nothing nor do the other high tech gimics. A brake is dependent on the frontal area of the ports and their location for it's effectivenes. If you want more info on this subject let me know, like I said I asked an engineer to help out and as you can guess I have about 30 pages of equations and other stuff which I do not understand. Dads are great, but some times, well you know too great.

I watched a friend fire my rifle with its Shrewd brake. The gas came out of the two sets of ports closest to the breech in a ring, similar to the brim of a Marine Corps DI's cover. I guess this gas ring is how the recoil is reduced; the gas escapes radially when the bullet leaves the barrel instead of in-line with the bore.

The difference in noise between brakes is relative. ALL will be loud as hell if they work. ALL will be noticably louder than Magnaporting, for example.

I would hesitate to substitute a pad for a brake in your case because while a pad extends the time of a recoil impulse, it does NOT reduce it. You head will still bobble, just not as fast. Otherwise I'd agree with Hot Core (because I hate brakes).

With your particular problem, I would ignore the noise issue altogether and find the best at reducing recoil. As was said above, the KDF stlye are excellent at that and relatively small. Then get yourself some quality electronic fitted ear plugs that shut off above certain decible levels and go hunting!

quote:

I as a custom gun maker have been working with brake design for over 15 years. I have even used an engineer who did super sonic wind tunnel testing on rocket engines for addvice. I cheat he is my father. What I found out is that most of this angled ports, spirled holes, dial in stuff is hype and sales crap!!!! Once gass, ei burned powder velosity excedes the speed of sound it does not like to turn corners. It is true that the speed of sound is dependent on tempriture but none the less the temp. of burning powder and the velosity of the expanding gas do not change this fact.
Anglae holes do nothing nor do the other high tech gimics. A brake is dependent on the frontal area of the ports and their location for it's effectivenes. If you want more info on this subject let me know, like I said I asked an engineer to help out and as you can guess I have about 30 pages of equations and other stuff which I do not understand. Dads are great, but some times, well you know too great.

So, saying this, if you impede the flow of fluid but open another direction to flow the fluid won't change it's course?

I have to disagree with this. Aerodynamicists do this all the time. They are tricking the flow of fluids be it subsonic, trans-sonic or supersonic.

How do you think they get an airfoil to fly in this day and age in the trans-sonic area where parts of the airflow is in all different speed areas and still be able to produce the lifting force necessary to support the aircraft in flight. Not to mention the changes in centers of pressure that are involved?

I think your contacts need to get out their sliderules and rethink this as it is happening all around you.

I fly corporate jets at .87 mach. If what you are saying is true I'd be falling out of the sky all the time and littering up the landscape. Because parts of the airflow are exceeding the speed of sound while other areas are subsonic and the aircraft as a whole is in the trans-sonic range. This is done purely by shapes and changing fluid flow direction.

BTW, if anyone would be interested in a very hi-quality tuneable brake that won't set off car alarms, Give Richard Buss a try.

His #(541)349-1290

Don

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The difference in noise between brakes is relative. ALL will be loud as hell if they work. ALL will be noticably louder than Magnaporting, for example.

I would hesitate to substitute a pad for a brake in your case because while a pad extends the time of a recoil impulse, it does NOT reduce it. You head will still bobble, just not as fast. Otherwise I'd agree with Hot Core (because I hate brakes).

With your particular problem, I would ignore the noise issue altogether and find the best at reducing recoil. As was said above, the KDF stlye are excellent at that and relatively small. Then get yourself some quality electronic fitted ear plugs that shut off above certain decible levels and go hunting!

Being a stuntman for 30 plus years teaches one a bit about energy and how is is dissipated.

A recoil pad that “slows down†the rearward motion by requiring some of that energy to be used up in compressing the pad material is going to lessen the amount of energy that is transmitted to your shoulder. Instead of being “punched†you are being “shoved.â€

Having said that...and having dealt with a detached retina before...I would recommend using lighter loads and lighter bullets, or going to a lighter caliber, before I took the chance of being blind in one eye due to my own stupidity and bull headedness.

Aside from fitting a decent pad and toning down the loads like Rick mentioned, you might also consider looking for a stock that offers less drop at the heel to attach it to.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The difference in noise between brakes is relative. ALL will be loud as hell if they work. ALL will be noticably louder than Magnaporting, for example.

I would hesitate to substitute a pad for a brake in your case because while a pad extends the time of a recoil impulse, it does NOT reduce it. You head will still bobble, just not as fast. Otherwise I'd agree with Hot Core (because I hate brakes).

With your particular problem, I would ignore the noise issue altogether and find the best at reducing recoil. As was said above, the KDF stlye are excellent at that and relatively small. Then get yourself some quality electronic fitted ear plugs that shut off above certain decible levels and go hunting!

Being a stuntman for 30 plus years teaches one a bit about energy and how is is dissipated.

A recoil pad that “slows down†the rearward motion by requiring some of that energy to be used up in compressing the pad material is going to lessen the amount of energy that is transmitted to your shoulder. Instead of being “punched†you are being “shoved.â€

Having said that...and having dealt with a detached retina before...I would recommend using lighter loads and lighter bullets, or going to a lighter caliber, before I took the chance of being blind in one eye due to my own stupidity and bull headedness.

That's pretty much what I mean by changing the time line of recoil. The energy absorbed by compressing the material delays the time from when the rifle begins to move until the time the rifle begins to move you. Overall, the amount of energy absorbed is almost nothing; but the recoil velocity is what is effectively changed. I think the total recoil energy is pretty much the same amount either way, though. The only way to reduce the actual recoil energy is to add mass to the rifle.

And I'm not trying to start an argument, just thrash out some ideas here. Malm, wouldn't a straighter stock transfer more recoil to the shoulder, move it back more and therefore disturb the head and neck more?

I know it's "conventional wisdom" that a straight stock handles recoil better but truth is, most folks who shoot their CZ 550 Magnums with the hog back stocks love the way they recoil. In this case, transfering some energy into muzzle flip as opposed to shoulder jerk might not be a bad idea.

tiggertate,

The amount of energy is the same, but the way in which it is dispersed lessens the felt recoil and therefore the “instant shock†that can further damage an already damaged eye.

A muzzle break actually lessens the reward force of recoil by allowing the escaping gas to offset it by pushing forward at the same time.

It’s sort of like the old joke about which weighs more a pound of steel or a pound of feathers. They both weigh the same but which one would you rather have drop on your bare toes? Same amount of energy there for both of them.

It’s all physics and nothing to really argue over.

I don't want things to develop into any "disagreements" or such on physics, theories, etc. I am just curious on which brakes are better and why.

I am reducing calibers and am changing stock design entirely on more than my .338. Maybe I am all wet - but in my mind a thumbhole style stock would share the energy between the hand and shoulder. The change in stock and recoil pad is going to happen no matter whether I go with a brake or not.

Over the Holiday Weekend I have spent 3 days straight searching for info on brakes. There isn't much info out there on actual reductions. Loads, calibers, bullet weight and many other variables play into the brake effectiveness. As a rule most agree that the larger cases with more gas available respond better to recoil reduction than cases with less gas energy.
I also found that there is a large amount of brakes that direct gas toward the shooter and to the "wings" resulting in back blast and noise (No surpise there). I did find though several brake designs that supposedly limit the noise to the shooter significantly compared to others. Most of these type brakes generally are less effective.

Without trying one out I think everything is pretty much subjective and opinion. I am not excited about holes in my barrel so the brake that is threaded on is more appealing. Threads can be covered by a cap or cut off and a new crown can be done. Either way the process is reverseable - with minor weapon conversions.

The other rifle I am willing to try a brake on is my current build. I want to try out several brakes on my .338 first before I decide on adding the option to other rifles. All in all for me if the noise can be tolerated or dealt with (electronic plugs, etc.) then it is an option. I am not always going to want to poke holes in Elk or larger critters with a small caliber. There is a place for the .338 in my hunting collection and I don't want to abandon the rifle all together.

The one brake that I am going to purchase first is the JP Enterprises Bennie Cooley Tactical. This brake is supposedly very functional. The price isn't bad and if I don't like it I can take it off.

Do any of you guys have any experience with the JP Ent. brakes? Are there better ones than these to try first? I am open to comments and suggestions if someone can offer some real world experience with these.

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas....
Keep em' comin'
Eric

Eric,

While I have not tried this brake I am seriously considering it when I move up to something with greater power than my .458WinMag.

BP-Technology


There was some discussion of these and other styles in the last year or so on here, a search might find it.

If anyone has tried one of these BP-Tech brakes it would be interesting to see what they say!

Check out the videos on the BP site!

Les

Eric

I have tried several different brakes over the past 15 years.
I have designed and machined my own brake. It was an expansion chamber design. Each port was cut twice with a 15 degree forward draft on the rear and a 90 degree face on the front. Brakes were indexed with no ports on the bottom. They worked very good but I have stopped making them because of machine time.
If a customer asks for a brake now I recommend the Vais brake. It is the best compromise of recoil reduction without a significant increase in muzzle blast that I have found. All brakes reduce recoil and all increase noise. Fact of life.

James