Sir: Please enlighten me on what specific characteristics I should look for on Pre-S.C. Winchester produced rifles. Serial numbers or a specific feature? I must determine if mine fall into the pre-S.C. category. Thank you.
Posts: 122 | Location: Halstad, MN USA | Registered: 24 October 2001
Someone made a big deal about a screw in the sleeve on the newer control feed winchesters. Pre sleeve screw. There is no set year they stopped putting it in . winchester left it out for awhile then put it back, then took it out and some stainless models kept it in.
Beginning with the original 1936 version, Winchester Model 70s always featured a firing pin stop-screw on the left side of the bolt sleeve; on the opposite side of the sleeve from where the safety is located. This screw is slotted, and fits just slightly below the surface of the sleeve.
At about the same time that Model 70 production (in whole or in part) moved to South Carolina (and this seems to be when quality generally began to deteriorated across the board on the M70) at approximately serial number G300,000 and below (mostly below G275,000) this stop-screw was eliminated--officially in 1998. After sixty years of Model 70 production, one of it's time-honored design features became history.
No doubt you could dig up a USRAC design engineer, have him address this feature on this very thread, and have him go on to explain that the stop-screw was never necessary, and he go on to wax-ecstatic over currently produced M70s, and he'd then conclude his sermon with the firm convition that today's '70 is the best ever--stop-screw or no stop screw.
They said the same thing in 1964 when the atrociously-finished "New" Model 70 replaced the pre-64........
Most design revisions are usually brought into being as a cost-cutting measure, and sold to the gun-buying public as "improvements". This particular "improvment" needs to be seen for what it is--a cost-cutting measure.
Quite candidly, most buyers won't care one way or the other, but I do, and I won't buy a Model 70 Classic without that firing pin stop-screw, pure and simple. And I don't need to. There's plenty of the older ones to go around at gunshows, etc. to keep me in rifles for the rest of my career........
Allen: I can see that you bemoan the loss of this "stop screw". Not to be cute, but what is it's function?. I must admit, as a M70 junkie since the '50's, I've never noticed this screw. I just looked at my M70's, and sure enough, the pre64's have it. My M70 225Win (made in 1965) doesn't have it (even though it is very accurate and reliable). And my M70 Classic BOSS has it. However, my M70 Wall Mart Special Super Ugly doesn't have it(it's very accurate also). What function does (did) it perform, and why should I care? Thanks for the help. Jim
Posts: 1416 | Location: Texas | Registered: 02 May 2003
Quote: Allen: I can see that you bemoan the loss of this "stop screw". Not to be cute, but what is it's function?. I must admit, as a M70 junkie since the '50's, I've never noticed this screw. I just looked at my M70's, and sure enough, the pre64's have it. My M70 225Win (made in 1965) doesn't have it (even though it is very accurate and reliable). And my M70 Classic BOSS has it. However, my M70 Wall Mart Special Super Ugly doesn't have it(it's very accurate also). What function does (did) it perform, and why should I care? Thanks for the help. Jim
The stop screw's original and only purpose was to stop the cocking piece and firing pin assembly from coming back through the bolt shroud in the event of a breakage on the retaining rings that compress the firing pin spring.
Winchester put this added feature in due to the overwhelming amount of failures that the 03 springfield had, although their system was a little different, and heat treated way too hard, causing the breakage. The biggest reason for this breakage was due to the fact that the cocking piece assembly when fired moved through the bolt body and stopped on the retaining nut that held the firing pin spring. Had it been stopping on the inside of the bolt shroud like the Model 70, you would have never seen those breakages.
After the problems that the 03 encountered, Winchester didn't want to sell the rifle without the screw for fear that people would believe that the same breakage would occur on their rifles.
Winchester is now using a stainless, properly heat treated retaining ring system that does not fail. It has been this way for many, many years. I've yet to see the first one fail, or furthermore even heard of it.
It was eliminated due to an increase in production costs, but also because it really isn't necessary. Believe me, the lawyers run that company, and if they felt that it wasn't safe, it would be put back in.
The real breakoff for the pre-South Carolina rifles is a little grey to say the least. Just because you see a rifle with the stop screw on the shroud, does not mean at all that it was necessarily made before they moved to SC, just a possibility. That screw has been taken off and put back on more times than one could count, simply due to old prints, new revisions, and several different vendors making them for USRAC.
There is definite merit in picking a rifle that was made prior to the move to SC, simply due to the quality control problems, but the stop screw should be the least of anyones concerns.
One must fully understand the design of the model 70 before they can accurately determine whether a part is faulty or not. First of all, the winchester when fired causes the cocking piece to strike the inside of the bolt shroud when fully released. It is NOT making contact with the firing pin retaining rings, so the only force that these rings get on them is simply the pressure of the spring, which doesn't slam into them, it's just constant pressure. This type of pressure will not break these rings under any circumstances.
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002
Thank you very much, Allen and all others, for clearing this up for me. All my Winchester Classics have the screw with the exception of a push feed Stealth .223 Rem. Thanks again.
Posts: 122 | Location: Halstad, MN USA | Registered: 24 October 2001
I bemoan anything that cheapens the quality of the Model 70, then gets sold to the public as an improvement. But cheapening, then improving, then once again cheapening the quality of the Model 70 has been an ongoing game in New Haven since 1960 or so, and much of the company philosophy that dictates the wax and wane of these cycles is determine by which executive team happens to be in charge at the time.
Some 7 or 8 years ago, USRAC tried to sneak into the program some sort of black plastic magazine follower to replace the steel one that had been in place since 1972 or thereabouts. I bitched about it to USRAC reps at a couple of hunting conventions, and every time I did one of these company stooges would respond that the black plastic follower was an "improvement", and then finally one of these New Haven cowboys told me that USRAC was saving an entire $1.00 (American!), by adopting the plastic follower. Of course, if a company is building 50,000 units or more a year, that surely does add up, and I'm sure some non-shooter-type bean-counter convinced the final decision makers that raising the cost of the rifle one whole dollar to cover the difference was NOT a sound marketing decision. But nonetheless, I'm not one to let such bullshit rest, so I wrote letters, made calls, etc. I must not have been the only that bitched, because that junk plastic unit was replaced within a year or so with some sort of metal unit.
The one sure way to ensure that Model 70 quality would once again improve and remain high (and maybe get us a real spring-steel extractor, and maybe that old firing pin stop-screw back) is if the buying public bitches hard enough and firmly indicates that they're willing to pay for quality. That means pay higher prices with real sales, and with real cash, and not talk. And I doubt that it would take that huge of a price increase to achieve that. But I guess I'm just dreaming........
Allen: Yes, I agree with you. I ended up with one of the plastic magazine followers on a 70, curiously called a Laredo. It is a heavy barrel 7mm Rem. Mag. with a good, solid HS Precision fiberglass stock, and then the bean counters got in the act, with a plastic follower. I will have to spend about $30 or so for a steel unit, next time I order from Brownell's. It hasn't given any problems, but the others all had metal.
Posts: 122 | Location: Halstad, MN USA | Registered: 24 October 2001
The firing pin stop screw started in the M54 winchester and was carried over into the M70.
If you research the M54 firing pins you will find no less than three versions.
The first three years, they had a two piece unit. It copied the 1903 front section. I have put in 1903 tip and retainers in these rifles, and they will fit within .005 in firing pin length.
Then you will find a one piece type firing pin with the one piece spring retainer, this is when they put in the stop screw, about 1928.This is when they also changed the extractor to what it is now known as the M70 extractor.
The last change is the speed lock one piece type in 1932.
FYI the cocking cam depth has remained the same on the M70 ever since.
The stop screw was dropped in 1964 when they redesigned the action. Also contrary to the books the new model S/Ns started at 695,000, the books say 700,000. However I have handled three of them in the 695,000 to 697,000 range. I even fit a new bolt to one of them that the customer had lost.
We started to see it again in 1982 when they reintroduced the Featherwieght model.
On another note I find it very interesting that the Montana action went to a design of an extractor that Winchester considered weak in 1928.
If one does not understand the history of things then you can never step into the future.
Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith
Posts: 1497 | Location: Chehalis, Washington | Registered: 02 April 2003
Quote: The one sure way to ensure that Model 70 quality would once again improve and remain high (and maybe get us a real spring-steel extractor, and maybe that old firing pin stop-screw back) is if the buying public bitches hard enough and firmly indicates that they're willing to pay for quality. That means pay higher prices with real sales, and with real cash, and not talk. And I doubt that it would take that huge of a price increase to achieve that. But I guess I'm just dreaming........
AD
Actually Allen, the spring steel extractor problem has been eliminated since February of this year, but it wasn't due to them having to pay more, or for that matter willing to, it was from someone building one like it should be done at competive prices.....not naming any names or nothing.
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002
Thanks Jim for the history lesson on the 54. While I've handled quite a few, I've not had near as many opportunities as I would have liked to closely inspect them and dissasemble them.
History does have a funny way of repeating itself.
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002
triggerguard1, could you please clarify your statement that the spring steel extractor problem has been eliminated since February? Does this mean late production M70's now have spring steel extractors, or was there a design change, or were manufacturing defects rectified, or what, exactly? Thank you for your patience!! mudstud.
Posts: 273 | Location: Dakota | Registered: 28 December 2003
I'm guessing the bean counters at Winchester have been won over by Mr. Williams and his wonderfully built spring steel extractor. Sounds like positive news to me.
Chuck
Posts: 2659 | Location: Southwestern Alberta | Registered: 08 March 2003
Quote: triggerguard1, could you please clarify your statement that the spring steel extractor problem has been eliminated since February? Does this mean late production M70's now have spring steel extractors, or was there a design change, or were manufacturing defects rectified, or what, exactly? Thank you for your patience!! mudstud.
We are now the sole vendor for USRAC on their stainless extractors, which they use on all of their rifles, even the blued ones. They teflon coat the stainless to give it a blued look, but I personally like the stainless in matte finish on a blued rifle....but to each is own.
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002
