Several months back, Saeed treated us to pictures of a beautiful David Miller custom rifle, one of our fellow members received. Several people posted unflattering comments about the $30,000 price tag, feeling that it was a rip-off, since they could buy 100 functional Remingtons or Winchesters at Walmart for $30,000.00.

My purpose is not to badmouth factory rifles, as the mainline brands generally work. However, looking more closely, was $30,000 too much for the custom rifle in question, or for one from a comparable maker? In my opinion, no, and following is my reasoning.

First of all, based on the pictures, there was probably around $2,000.00 in raw materials alone in the gun as follows:

Stockblank - $800
Action - $350
Barrel - $250
Steel to machine the bottom metal, scope mounts, etc. - $50
Gold for inlays - $200
Assorted small parts - $350

Labor hours - my guess is 250 hours, at what I'd guess is about $100.00 per hour, or $25,000.

Add the excise tax of 7% on $27,000 which is $1890, and you have the $28,890, or close to $30,000.

Now, lets look at the $100.00 per hour and compare that to other professions. David Miller is acknowledged by his peers as being one of the top gunsmiths in the U.S. He is definately one of the best known. Also, even the naysayers admit that the quality of his work is excellent.
He also has a business to run, including a partner, machinery and tooling, insurance (I'll bet liability is expensive for a gunsmith), utilities, rent, taxes (including Social Security, self employment, business, etc), advertising, etc., and I am sure that he is not building rifles 100% of the time. If his is a typical business, his "billability" is probably 65% with answering phones, etc., and I'd bet his overhead is around 65%, so he probably makes $35.00 per hour based on an average work year of 2080 hours, or $70,000 per year, with no medical, dental, vacation, sick leave, pension, or 401K plan.

$70,000 sound like a lot, but here in California, a heavy equipment operator can make $45,000 to $65,000 a year, plus benefits working on public works jobs. Also, what do you pay the average garage that works on your car? I bet that it is in the $55 to $85 an hour range in most any major city in the U.S. and I bet the shop manager makes $40,000 or more a year. How about the best garage in your area, the one that works on Rolls Royce, Ferarri, etc? I'll bet you would pay closer to $100 per hour.

Does having Joe down the street work on your car enhance its value? What does the average Lawyer receive in fees, $200 per hour, how about the average doctor, or engineer? Now, what about the people who are the best at what they do?

Additionally, guns built by the best gunsmiths are functional art. Gunsmiths like David Miller, or Jerry Fisher, or Duane Wiebe are the best at what they do. A gun built by them, unless it is something truly wierd, if taken care of (used, but not abused) will at worst, hold its value. Will those 100 Remingtons do the same? All of a sudden, paying $30,000 might not seem so bad, if you can afford it.

Just my thoughts on the subject. What do the rest of you think?

He makes beautiful, function and accurate rifles but does anyone really need a $1500 (or more) custom made scope mount on their rifle?

I think there are plenty of custom makers out there producing rifles of nearly equal quality for much less money. echols, biesen, and the list goes on. I dont appreciate the un-need frills that go into the miller rifles and I sure as heck dont like his mount. I bet he gets the actions for much cheaper then 350 as they arnt even finished yet and he is the only one in the world who gets that, likely because he designed a couple riflestocks for winchester.

For the rifle that was posted I dont see 25,000 dollars plus in labor, but thats just me.

For instance a gun like this is half that of the miller, but I think there is just as much or more time into the rifle, with features I think are more practical. I toured this gun makers factory and there were more impressive rifles then this for 15,000 Euros, or about 15,000US.

The front sight, quarter rib, and barrel band are all one peice of steel, yes one peice, milled from on block of metal. No soldering, just one peice of metal!



Sorry for the large image size. Do you think 30,000 would be enough for this gun by Ottmar? It would pay for threee of these rifles plus a used Dakota to go along with it!


[ 08-07-2002, 14:06: Message edited by: Buell ]

I know what sticker shock is, but general economic principles dictate that a transaction between a willing buyer and a willing seller at a given price is to their mutual benefit and satisfaction. At least at the time of the sale.

Value, either real or perceived, is determined by the parties involved.

It doesn't bother me as long as my tax money isn't involved. I better not hear that Miller is getting an NEA grant!

Let us let capitalism work its magic.

[ 08-07-2002, 14:28: Message edited by: steve y ]

Amen Steve, the "worth" of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it - let the free market reign. That rifle is a work of art and good art is expensive.

Steve has it right! As long as the two parties involved are satisfied that is all that matters. That is how capitalism works. The producer asks a price and if someone is willing to pay it, it's all fair. Of course no one NEEDS a $30,000 rifle but for those that WANT one and can afford one, more power to 'em. The same comment could be made about cars. Is a $70,000 Mercedes really that much better than my Subaru that is good for a few hundred thousand miles? I don't think so, but I don't see people campaigning for the downfall of Mercedes or for them to lower their prices!

I dont think you guys are getting the point.

The arguement was that Miller is charging too much for what you get.

Yes, if someone wants to buy it by all means do. Part of capitalism is also someone like me complaining about it!

I hate the car vs. car scerario because there are obvious benefits to owning a mercedes. I think there you pay for what you get.

However, say suburu charged 24,000 for the WRX which they do, and for a comparable car, like the Mitsu Evo they charged 95,000 dollars, can you see the difference then? They are both all wheel drive cars, 227Hp for the subu, 272 for the evo, both turbo, ect... Nice rally cars if you want...

Or even say honda civic for 17,000 and nissan sentra for 80,000 dollars, and you begin to see our point about how WE feel about miller rifles!

And I doubt if a nissan sentra was 80,000 dollars you all would say, "Thats capitalism."

Buell

Oh, you could buy any number of stock factory rifles for that $30,000, but you STILL wouldn't have a David Miller Classic! He spends an entire week just crafting that fabulous scopemount of his, and (you have to really study one and use the rifle to fully appreciate it) it's a masterpiece of simplicty, strength, design-genius, workmanship, and function. And that's just one aspect of the package........

Custom rifles are a very personal investment. Some of the makers I admire (often, for different reasons) include Dave Miller and Curt Crum, plus D'Arcy Echols (tops in my book!), Gene Simillion, Hartmann & Weiss, Roger Biesen, and John Bollinger. These are the makers of COMPLETE rifles with whom I'm most familiar, and whose work I admire the most. I know there are other top makers as well...

I don't begrudge any of them the price they charge for the unique talents that they possess and their time, not to mention their investment. If some of our members charged for THEIR time to build the same product (assuming they could, and they CAN'T!) the price would be a lot higher, guaranteed!

AD

I think you guys ARE missing the point.

Certain people have the available cash and a life style that just doesn't equate with the K-mart/Walmart Mentality.

When it comes to motorcars, those people with available resources just won't buy that Japanese junk. Prefering to push the state of the art in quality and performance to the limit.

Same thing applies to the purchase of fine firearms. The art created by the master craftsman makes a statement about the owner and provides a shooting experience that many of us will never have the opportunity to realize in our lifetimes.

It has been true throughout the ages that kings, rich merchants, and others have supported the creation of artistic works and become the keepers of the flame of artistic accomplishment. More power to them!



It so happens that my personal tastes, however run more towards pushing the limits of technology, rather than paying large amounts for scraping and sanding, although I fully understand those individuals motivation.

[ 08-07-2002, 19:15: Message edited by: DMCI* ]

At 250 hrs, and $100.00 an hour. it is worth it.
I take it you have no idea what so ever how hard it is to do all that stuff. Not anyone can do it.

I have seen pistols with 100% engraving including some very real like human faces on them. The engraving alone was almost $20,000

How easy do you think it is to turn a block of wood into a thing of beauty?
Skills, or should I say talents like that are worth the money, if thats what you want.
Look at the money football and basket ball players make. What a joke!!! for playing a GAME! not doing something real like crating a work of art that shoots.

Celt

A point that just occurred to me is that thanks to those that can afford the "Miller Rifles" of this world, the rest of us who can only afford a stock Ruger, Winchester, etc. benefit. Winchester's stocks are trimmer and better proportioned thanks to David Miller, Ruger's thanks to Al Beisen. Bill Ruger's very designs were inspired by what he felt were the finest guns in the world. The features seen in a lot of production guns have flowed down from the makers of fine custom guns.

Buell,

Sorry about repeating my earlier post, it wasn't even on my screen, don't know how that happened!

Buell,
I think the car analogy does hold up here. Let me try again (don't worry I'll tie it back into guns!) If we look at the real utility of a Subaru vs. the 3x as expensive Mercedes what do you REALLY get? The Subaru rides decent, is fairly comfortable inside, handles decent, gets good mileage, they last, and it will go as fast as anyone needs to go. Is the Mercedes better in many of these categories? Yes! But when we get right down to it how is the Mercedes going to help me get to work in the morning any better than the Subaru. I'm going to get there comfortably in either one! But if someone wants to pay 3x the price for a car that IMHO isn't 3x as good, that's capitalism!

The same could be said for these guns. Is the David Miller 100x as good as a Remington ADL when REAL UTILITY is considered? Probably not! It might shoot slightly smaller groups, be a little lighter, and have better balance in your hands, but none of these things is better by a factor of 100. My guess is that the deer shot by the ADL will be just as dead as the deer shot with the David Miller. But if David Miller is happy with his profit on $30,000, and the purchaser is satisfied that he got $30,000 worth, then who are we to judge? If the purchaser doesn't feel like he got ripped off then he didn't get ripped off, he's the only one that can make that determination!

I'll defend David Miller's right to sell rifles for $30,000 to the end. And I'll defend your right to complain about it to the same end! Ain't America great!

Regards,
Bob

P.S. If Nissan was selling Sentras for $80,000 and people were buying them, that is capitalism!

Based on a subsequent post I will revise mine...the scope mount now looks like it costs $4000 assuming $100/hour and taking a week to do it.

David Miller builds an exceptional rifle. I would venture that his shop hourly cost is less than the $100 but I would also say that the time for that rifle is more. All comes out in the wash. The wonderful part about the cost of these rifles is the fact that they actually appreciate. I would venture that Lee could make a few thousand on that rifle in the short time he has owned it. I would also imagine that you could not pry it out of his hands.

As far as Buells comparisons on that Ottmar rifle you are dealing with a new product and a used one. Most custom rifles with the exception noted above are worth 1/2 once you take them out the door. Or at least that is what the market seems to show. That Ottmar stock labor alone was $4,000 in his later years of his career and the Rigby peep sight is $400 plus if you can even find one. I have seen that rifle before in his shop and if memory serves me, it was engraved by Roger Kehr and Rogers fees would have been as much as the stock labor even then. I would guess that rifle at $16K when they built it.

The photos of the one below was done by Maurice on a Hagn single shot. Ron Smith did the engraving and it won the first Award of Merit sponsored by Guns Magazine at our annual ACGG exhibition in 1995. Maurice was sitting at our table at the banquet and was worried to death that they might want him to speak if he won. They did and he said "Thanks". That rifle and it's fitted case went out the door to the customer for over $40,000. Darwin Hensley has been building rifles of this cost for years as has Steve Heilman. It is not a new thing. The difference is that David Miller has a line of anxious customers and more power to him.

Our opinion of the cost or the value of these rifles has little importance. They are not built for the masses, but rather for one individual, like a hand made suit. Even the car argument does not fit the situation. It is his to cherish and use as he sees fit. I know Lee will use that Miller rifle. For us to criticize the cost as some do seems pointless.

Rather good break down Loud_n boomer.

Good post, Customstox.

My theory is, it is that man's(custom gun buyers) money, and he can do whatever he wants to with it. And, assuming no one is getting hurt, it isn't anyone's business but his.

Others might make different choices either in smiths or spending and that is their right. But criticizing another man's choices, unless asked, is in poor taste IMO.

If someone doesn't like the prices of Miller or any custom smith's rifles, don't buy them, simple enough. And leave the people who do buy them alone.

Allen,

How do you know that no member here could build a rifle as good as Miller or Echols?? Have you personally examined each and every members work? For all you know there could be someone just as good as they are.

Wasn't really taking a shot at anyone as I've always believed in that old Country/Western song
"If you've got the money...etc etc"

Question.....How do you judge a rifle?

Is it intrinisically accurate?

Can you shoot it accurately?

How does it handle (does it fit)?

Does it function the way it is supposed to 100% of the time?

You might add "Is it pleasing to the eye?" but that is a subjective evaluation.

Aren't these the basics and the remainder is ....?

Bill, I don't know who you have in mind, but I dare say if the guys I mentioned were all in "The Guild" making "art rifles", everybody'd be tickled pink and slappin' 'em on the back.

AD

Allen...the custom rifle builders/artists you mentioned all make great rifles..

But and it's a big "but" any realistic advantage/improvement/etc realized by spending a week making a scope mount escapes me....seems to me it's comparable to having Michaelangelo(?) paint your house...would certainly add value to it and your house would be the envy of all the neighbors but.....

Again let me say if that's what blows you skirt up...go for it and the more power to you for being able to afford it.

Art is priceless. It always has been and always will be. The current value at any given time is determined by the prevailing trends in culture. What is worth $10 today may be worth $10 million tomorrow and vice versa.

Functional art, such as automobiles and firearms, is not much different. Comissioning a hand built Bentley for $350,000 or a David Miller rifle for $30,000 is merely purchasing art that can be enjoyed with senses other than vision.

"Art is in the eye of the beholder (of the checkbook)"

Chic-

I think most guns of any quality will gain value over time. I own a Husqvarna that I bet costs more now then when it was originally sold in the 50's.

All-

I am not doubting that someone should pay whatever they want for the rifle. If he paid miller 50,000,000 for that gun I wouldnt care, really, but it seems odd that rifles with as much or more into them cost less.

The finest fully Bulino engravings start at 100,000 from the top guys.

Here is a doozie that sold for about $270,000US



I think there are many things Mercedes, BMW, Audi do to their cars that make them worth the money. One they hold their value much better, safety wise they are better, the interior is much nicer. They use 18 guage steel on the outside when most people are using 22- which makes it harder to ding, is more durable, ect. There is a reason people can flip over going 150 on the autobahn and survive un harmed in a covertable Mercedes SL500.

Yes, Mercedes does put more into their cars then Subaru (just as an example). However, if you figure out the cost of the engineering, the materials, and the labour, a Mercedes isn't worth what we consumers pay for it. So what are we buying? An essence, an image, the sheer joy of owning mechanical art. Some people look at a Van Gogh and see wonderful beauty, some people look at it and see just a picture. Yes, they both have color, you hang them both on the wall, one is worth millions and the other was bought at Walmart for $6.99 including frame. I see no real differance in this situation. If you appreciate things that are better, you appreciate them. And some people can afford them. Not me, unfortunately, but as long as someone can, these beauties will still be built, painted, created. I don't think that the majority of gunsmiths get what their effort is worth, because it is an under appreciated set of skills in this day and age. But the one's who do truly great work, more power (and money) to them. Just my two cents worth. - Dan

When firearms were invented, they all had to be handmade from scratch to the customer's satisfaction. A truly exquisite one from a top smith could easily cost a man a year's salary. Not much has changed in 300 years. I believe David Miller and his peers are continuing a tradition that would otherwise be lost.

The mass production of firearms began as a means to provide the military with easily replaceable parts. The advent of the industrial age lowered the cost and made functional firearms affordable to the working class.

It isn't that a custom rifle is more expensive than a factory rifle, it is that a mass produced rifle costs but a fraction of a traditonal one. (And I'm damn happy that it does).

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Here are a pair of Roger Biesen rifles. Are the worth what I paid for them? Yes, but I can't answer that same question for you. It's a matter of personal taste (and pocketbook) when someone has a rifle made for them versus buying off the rack.





Regards,

Terry

P.S.
I drive a Chevrolet pickup.

Darwin Hensley and Steve Heilman, I don't think David Miller is as good as either of them, but then that's what makes a dog fight....

I am a real fan of Jack Hogue and Mark Silvers also....Jack quit the business and now makes carriages but he was the ultimate gunmaker IMHO..

Europe has some fine gunsmiths also...

Myself, Id rather have a good English rifle by H&H, Westley Richards etc than any custom rifle..I like the old Hoffman rifles also. these guns feed and function and resale is fantastic..

T.Carr-

Thats a nice set of rifles you have there.

Buell

I can't help but notice that virtually all of those gorgeous custom rifles all have Leupold scopes on them. Hmmmmmm..........

Here you go, some NON us customs...