I see a lot of responses that seem to regard 'short action' cartridges as being superior to 'long action'.

Why is a short action better than a long action? I'm referring to bolt action rifles here...

Where did you see such statements?

Dear Rugeruser,
I guess the reason behind the "logic" of short being better than long is thus. At least this is the way I see it. If you can cram long magnum velocities into a case that will work through a short[er] action? Bolt operation will be faster[by a few miliseconds] and the rifle can be made into a shorter, lighter, quicker handling piece. Just how much lighter? Is all this worth it? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I just made up a Rem mod 7 into a 6.5 SAUM. Preliminary range results seem to indicate it will meet and beat 264 Win Mag velocities with a 22 1/2" barrel and only weigh 6lbs scoped. Is this a good thing? For a guy 66 yrs old with COPD, three back surgeries under his belt and a love to hunt, it is. That is if accuracy is there too. Quite frankly I can`t see how much faster I can work a short action bolt over a long one. Also when it comes to the grand old cartridges like the 375 H&H it would seem almost unethical to think of using another case for the 375 bullets. VERY difficult to beat an old beat up Mauser chambered for the 375 H&H. There is just something about the smoothness and all of the old guns. The 376 Steyr is fine but I`ll go for the old Mauser first. I hope this answers your questions a bit.

Aloha, Mark

The greatest advantage of the short action is providing sales talk for the seller.

The difference in length from a short to a long action M700 is about 1/2". The difference in weight for a M700 BDL (short to long) is around 3oz.

For certain cartridges, e.g. the new WSMs, it can be very hard to get these to feed in a long action. At least that is the experience of a friend of mine, who wanted to build a .270 WSM on a long M1999. In all honesty, I don't know whether another magazine box would have helped?? I don't know if anybody makes one suitable for WSM dimensions for a long action (RUM dimensions, maybe)??

- mike

For a hunting rifle the so-called "advantages" of the short action are VASTLY overrated. I see them as another "tidalwave-in-a-tincup" alarum, that, along with all the anit-belt hetoric, is designed to bamboozle the peasants into buying new gear.

All those guys with highly-accurate, long-action, belted-magnums in 300 H&H, 375 H&H, 300 Weatherby, etc. who have literally hunted the world with those rifles laugh over such nonsense.....

AD

If you are referring to magnum and standard length Mausers, the difference in length is only about 0.5" but there is is a significant difference in the size, weight, heft and handling characteristics of the respective rifles, even if in the same caliber.

That copy is in Winchesters WSM introduction and is a generally accepted statement. As to hunting rifles is does not matter much at all as Allen says.

What counts are the specifics of what you get and what you give up. For most hunting short actioned guns are a little more handy and the cartridges are adequate for all but very long range shooting.

There are exceptions both ways but the majority of really light rifles have short actions.

Sales BS.

Are you all trying to tell me that 1/2 inch changes the handling characteristics that much? Are your trying to tell me that you can feel the 3 oz difference in weight? I would bet that if you had your eyes closed and were handed twenty different short/long action rifles that you could not accurately tell the difference. I get the feeling that modern rifle mythology is being applied by people who should know better.

I bet you also like shiney stocks and shiney stainless barrels. I bet you also look down your noses in deer camp at the old guy with a Savage 99 in 300 Savage with iron sights.

I hear these discussions every year in elk camp and just smile, because inside I am saying "BULL SHIT" so no one will hear me. The only noticeably shortened bolt action that I have used in the last 30 years is the Remington Model 7. When I pick up my old pre-war M70 LONG ACTION rifle that I rebarreled with a 30-06 featherweight 22 inch barrel in a slimmed down factory stock, I will stop for your sake and chastise myself for not having a short action Ultra short something mag rifle. I don't think that the elk will know the difference when the 180 Nosler Partition slams into its chest. And just so I will know the joy of carring 3 oz less in the woods, I will take the apple out of my backpack and feed it to the squirrels.

Yep, I've got a 300 WSM and like it. I happened to have a PAC-NOR match barrel laying around, a Ruger M77 short action with a magnum
bolt face, and a reamer became available. I combined the barrel and action and left the barrel at 27 inches finished length. The gun shoots well and is nice in the open dessert but not because the action is short or the cartridge is an ULTRA SHORT MAG. It shoots well because the cartridge is well designed of adequate capacity, the brass is well made, the chamber was cut correctly, and the barrel is both good quality and long enough for the cartridge's case capacity. Would I go buy a 300 WSM? No. I would buy a LONG ACTION rifle in 300 WM
if I could get at least a 26 inch barrel. How's that for contrary?

Oh, I use the 300 WSM for hunting from my Jeep when I search the rimrocks for big Muley bucks.

quote:

Are you all trying to tell me that 1/2 inch changes the handling characteristics that much?

I mean to discuss specific rifles. I am quite familar with the Kimber 84M's in both the Classic and Montana stocks. Both of these short action rifles also are in proportion smaller than many other bolt action rifles. The net is a much lighter rifle. Some of the Sako's at least used to be made in nice small ring actions that were not too heavy. They are not nearly as light as a Kimber however.

I have a couple of Brno 21/22 carbines that are small ring but long actions. They are longer and heavier than a Kimber again but are nice to handle as they are thin like the 84M's.

This discussion is bordering on ridiculous!

All it takes is a tape measure and a scale to see that the difference in a long and short action (from the same manufacturer) is hardly something to be worrying about.

My, God...this reminds of of a thread on here once where a guy was worried about which bedding material was heavier than another. If a person is that sensitive to weight what are they going to do when they actually shoot something... eat it on the spot where it falls?

308 Win. 22" 42" 13 1/2" 9/16" 7/8" 6 lbs. 8 oz.
============================================================
30-06 Spfld. 22" 42 1/2" 13 1/2" 9/16" 7/8" 7 lbs. 4 oz.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.a...type_id=966&cat=001C

I like M70's too. Here is some specific information from Winchesters site. It shows that that short action 308 weighs 12 oz less than the long action in 30-06.

Your turn to be specific.

Since we are talking short vs long actions--help me out. I want (need?) a 6mm Rem but can't find one that has been acceptable from either the price or condition (or both) standpoint. I have just about decided to find a good used action and have it rebarrelled. My question: can I use a long action to take advantage of seating bullets out close to the lands without exceeding mag length limits, or will I experience feeding problems? If I go with the short action, I'll have the chamber cut so a ballistic tip can be seated against the lands but still function through the magazine. Any thoughts and or comments?

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
308 Win. 22" 42" 13 1/2" 9/16" 7/8" 6 lbs. 8 oz.
============================================================
30-06 Spfld. 22" 42 1/2" 13 1/2" 9/16" 7/8" 7 lbs. 4 oz.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.a...type_id=966&cat=001C

I like M70's too. Here is some specific information from Winchesters site. It shows that that short action 308 weighs 12 oz less than the long action in 30-06.

Your turn to be specific.

And your point is?????

I like long actions because I do not do a lot of snap shooting, and I like the often smoother feeding of the longer cartridges in the longer actions. That does not mean longer actions are necessarily better (or worse), though.

As for weight differences, a person may not be able to judge which is heavier, but he surely can judge which balances better, if even as little as 2 ounces is added. BUT, that depends on where the extra weight is.

Classic double upland game shotguns known for their fast handling balance are reported to have been intentionally made with their balance point to be very close to 4-1/2" in front of the front trigger. The Ithaca NID, on the other hand, though a very good shotgun for pass shooting, was not reputed to be a "quick" handler, primarily because the weight of its thicker barrels moved the balance point out to about 5-1/2" in front of the front trigger.

Most of the better grade upland game doubles were built with some care to maintain balance. That might be even more important in a DG rifle.

Just tossed that in here not to come down in favor of either the long action or the short action, but just to suggest that unless one's rifles are custom made to fit them, they might want to consider which length of action feels the best in their hands, in whatever model they are considering buying.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
This discussion is bordering on ridiculous!

All it takes is a tape measure and a scale to see that the difference in a long and short action (from the same manufacturer) is hardly something to be worrying about.

My, God...this reminds of of a thread on here once where a guy was worried about which bedding material was heavier than another. If a person is that sensitive to weight what are they going to do when they actually shoot something... eat it on the spot where it falls?

Ditto!

quote:

Old Elk Hunter: Are you all trying to tell me that 1/2 inch changes the handling characteristics that much?

Ever own a magnum Mauser? Like a Brevex or a Granite Mountain or an Enfield? Answer is yes.

If you are shooting benchrest competition, the difference in stiffness makes a big difference - maybe .05 to .10 inches in 10 shot group size. This is significant when your group size may not be any bigger than that at 100 yards, but for hunting I doubt that anyone will ever be able to measure the difference.

Mr.McDermott -

I believe you are correct as far as the benchrest goes. Also, in most hunting, I agree the weight or length of the action does not make a difference.

But, in situations where rapidity of the shot makes a difference, such as deer shooting in dense woods, bear shooting up close and personal in the Alaskan willows, or perhaps lion shooting in tall grass, it can make a lot of difference, depending on whether it has been allowed for in the balance of the rifle.

The one other place good balance makes a difference is where one is intentionally trying to build the nicest, finest, rifle he can to fit himself. Kind of like the difference between buying a Savage double barrel off the rack and getting a bespoken Purdey. With one a man can train himself to become an extension of the gun. In the other the gun is built to be an instictive extension of the man.

Of course, good balance can be built into rifles with either type of rifle action...it is just not something large volume factories are always able to do at a salable price.

You're worrying me, mho. I have spent tons o' money and many months building a 300WSM on an M1999 long action. I chose the long so I could shoot the very long VLD bullets in it. I hope I have not unwittingly bun-porked myself and now have a single-shot rifle when I wanted a repeater.

Rootbeer, I'm sorry if I have caused you worry. This is story: two friends decided they wanted .270 WSMs built on M1999. This was early days, before the short actions finally hit the market, so all they had available were long M1999s. They had Dennis Olson of Plains MT help them in their endeavour. Dennis has worked on a TON of M1999s, and he is a very competent gunsmith. I believe they tried just about anything to get the feeding right - and they had access to any MRC accessory (like different mag box) available at the time. In the end, one of the guys in question gave up, and built a .270 Wby instead. He has lived happily ever after, getting both great accuracy and speed. The other guy persisted, and had the .270 WSM built on the long M1999. I don't know if he has got it working since, but the last time I saw it was last September. He killed an antelope with it, and then switched back to his old .25-06 for the remainder of the hunt - I believe partly because of frustration over the feeding of the WSM.

Now, all of this was only one experience. Maybe somebody has got it working later, maybe a new mag box has become available, what do I know? If you are worried about your project, I would call up Jeff@MRC (406-755-4867) and ask him what experience his other customers may have had with your particular setup. Maybe he has the magic wand for you??

You can also talk to Larry@Serengeti, they build a ton of rifles on MRC action. Ask whether the WSM in long M1999 story is still the same as it was a couple of years back?? Larry can be reached via (406)756-2399.

If the worst comes to the worst, and you already have all the parts, maybe you could switch to another cartridge - like a .300 Win Mag?? Great round, works just as well as the WSM. Although, re-reading your post, it actually sounds like you are quite far down the road having your WSM built. I hope it will work out for you!

- mike

Yes, mho, I am wa-a-a-y down the road with my rifle. It is slated to be delivered in middle September and is supposed to be on display in partially finished form at the Crossroads of the West gunshow in Reno at the Hilton on July 30 and 31 at the Tussey Custom booth. It will be the stainless lefty in the thumbhole stock with the 30" fluted Krieger barrel (if it's there...). Anybody who's close enough, please come and then tell me what you think of my gun in these pages. Thanks.

quote:

Your turn to be specific.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700bdl.htm

Ohh - the short action BDL is a whopping 2oz lighter than the .30-06

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700cdl.htm

Ditto with the CDL

4 oz difference in the Ruger Ultralight.

Savage99 - this comment isn't pointed at you so don't take it so, but one thing I have noticed over time is that many of the guys that harp on and on about "needing" a rifle that is half a pound lighter could use a lot more time in the gym. I see so many Georgia hunters that feel they need a lighter rifle because it is just too much for them to carry it 200 yards from their ATV to their tree stand LOL. Heck if they would eat a few less donuts, they wouldn't have to worry about how much the rifle weighs.

Fla3006,

Yep, I owned a Brevex magnum Mauser action chambered in 338/378 Weatherby with a 30 inch barrel. The heavy barrel would have made it hard to make the comparison you suggest. The Brevex is definitely a heavy action compared to a standard Mauser. I think in that case the 1/2 inch longer action would have been noticeably heavier than a typical M98. I was thinking more of a typical action that the only change between short and long is the length of the action not the beefyness (sp?). I personally like the shortest action appropriate for the cartidge. I really like the Model 7 Remington and my old M600 Remington as short rifles. I like them with short barrels for getting around in brush and getting in and out of my Jeep. But for carrying in the field I don't really think of them as being better than a long action. Frankly, I don't think about a rifles weight for field use much. Nah, that's a lie. I like the lightest gun I can carry as long as it doesn't compromise performance. I keep buying CZ527's because they are small and light. When I go elk hunting I still like my old M70 in 30-06 without much regard for its size. I still often opt for my 358 Norma Mag built on a Begium M98 with a medium weight 26 inch barrel. I hunt by walking slowly trough the woods or from a blind and the weight of the rifle is seldom a major concern. If I was worried
about weight I would go on a diet and also wouldn't carry a 20 pound backpack with my survival essentials, 2 meter radio, GPS, and camera.
I think that we are wasting a bunch of electrons discussing this. Select the cartridge you want in the rifle you want, shoot it often and
enjoy it without worrying about what the next guy thinks. He is not going to pack your rifle so why should he care.

Buzz,

You are talking about my cousins. Its a few less dumplings, a lot less cornbread, and stay out of the hard candy on Sunday. They walk as slowly as they talk so I don't see them expending much energy at anything. Hell, its too hot and muggy to do anything quickly.