IT's a 1953 make in 30-06 which would make a dandy Whelen donor action. The action is sound but the stock has some dings and was relieved for a Lyman sometime in it's past. Also has a older vintage recoil pad installed on it. PM me if you're interested.
My initial hang up was for the h&h out of the springfield and mauser. The money spent on reworking these actions would be more than the model 70. like I said before; I'd like them to be a mirror image of each other so all three actions would be the same. I actually have the three calibers I want to build these guns on, I now just want them to be the same. Money not wanting to be in my wallet for long periods of time have brought me to this idea. I have three raw springfields and 5 raw yugo 48's. I've seen the H&H done up in the springfield, but I know its a lot of work.
I have a pre 64 .264 and was my go to rifle for a long time; I'll see if I can find three of the same pre 64 actions. any body have a lead on any.
turfman
Posts: 133 | Location: Pa\Nj | Registered: 05 January 2003
That was a cut & paste answer. If you compare a Mauser 98 receiver to a Model 70 receiver, it's pretty plain that the Model 70 is no Mauser copy. The receiver itself is a major improvement over the Mauser 98 in all respects, being much stiffer and more rigid, and the quality of steel and heat-treating is much, much better.
The old Model 70s were tested with 70,000 psi proof loads, and the new Classics are stronger yet. Any problems that I've heard about with these actions have always gone back to operator error; i.e., a .257 bullet seated in a .243 case, etc. A prudent shooter won't have any trouble, and there are hundreds of thousands of Model 70s that have been used for decades that stand as testimony to the fundamental integrity of the action. I've been shooting M70s for over twenty-six years with not so much as a leaky primer, and I have literally used them around the world.
Invent first the fool-proof-fool, and you may then set about the task of inventing the fool-proof tool........
I like model 70s as well as anyone especially pre-64s but there has to date been no 70 made that handled gas as well as a mauser 98. The 70 may be stronger, more rigid and prettier, but it does not route gas as well.
A pre-64 modle 70 all the way. Out of the 500,000 ++++++actions made, not many failures at all. Too many too soft Mauser actions and many failures. Get the '70, load to under 65,000 psi and all is well. Those faulting a '70 on gas handeling are on a theoretical fools errand.
Posts: 2608 | Location: Moore, Oklahoma, USA | Registered: 28 December 2003
Quote: Originally posted by lb404..... Those faulting a '70 on gas handeling are on a theoretical fools errand.
I'd disagree. The design isn't a "theoretical" fault. It's real. Escaping gas has an unimpeded path down the left raceway to the shooter. Countless qualified riflemen and gunsmiths have acknowledged such. Beyond that, every clone of the Model 70.....and even the current Model 70 Classic.....have instituted some design modification to correct it.
I have great respect for Allen's opinion of the pre-64 Model 70. He at one time or another has owned a large collection of these rifles......and has used them afield extensively. And his comments on prudent reloading practices and fool-proof designs have merit. However, the raw statistical data of limited harmful incidents isn't really sufficient.
GV
Posts: 768 | Location: Wisconsin | Registered: 18 January 2001
I'm with you Idared, I'm a VERY careful reloader, and do all the checks, etc., but using a batch of new brass, I had a case head separation in my Ruger a few years ago - created a great deal of consternation for those around me, but all I knew was that the shot was awfully loud! No injury, no damage.
'Gas handling' IS important!!
Posts: 1275 | Location: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia | Registered: 02 May 2002
Quote: Thats what I thought you guys would say. ... I have a pre 64 .264 ...
Hey turfman, It doesn't surprise me that they would say what they do either. Rather than confuse the "Holy Grail Experts" with facts, let me encourage you to obtain a copy of Mr. P.O. Ackley's "Handbook For Shooters & Reloaders". It is a two volume set and has a lot of interesting information in it.
One of the Chapters is entitled, "A Few Causes Of Blowups" and goes into an extenive list of things that can cause them. Interesting to me is it goes into great detail about the poor design issues associated with the metallurgically challenged (rag) Pre-64 M70s.
Take a look at the flick on page 36 in Volume 2 and then query the "Holy Grail Experts" if any of the (rag) Pre-64 M70s with the impurities in the receiver steel were ever recalled.
Then read the first full paragraph on page 37 concerning, "a well known featherweight type of rifle for the 264 Winchester cartridge".
No need to take my word for how dangerous and worthless the (rag) Pre-64 M70s are, because Mr. Ackley says it very clearly.
Best of luck with your 264WinMag, it might be a ticking time bomb and then again it might be OK. Only real way to know is to do a ... HA, I'll let the "Holy Grail Experts" explain how to find out.
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001
Turfman, I agree with the idea of using identical actions for your safari rifles. That's why I had a 9.3x64 built up to match my 300 H&H, both pre64 M70's.
Posts: 371 | Location: Florida | Registered: 25 April 2003
This ranking on the pre 64 M70's is spoiling my fun to some extent. Perhaps it's for my own good. Those who have had accidents with one may not be on the forums anymore one could surmise.
The picture below is of a case that split all along the shoulder-neck region on a 264 WM fired in a pre-64 M70. I cannot explain why this happened. You can see soot all over the case all the way to the base. No gas came back as far as I can tell. I was wearing glasses. The load was 65 grs of RL 22 with a 120 gr Ballistic Tip and 215M primers. This load is not "maximum" but is the most accurate in that rifle.
I vote for Pre-64 Model 70's, and it's not even close. The Winchester has been factory-configured for all three cartridges (or "family" in the case of the Whelen) and feeds them perfectly. The 257 Robts and 35 Whelen are no problem for the 98 Mauser, but the 375 H&H is too long, without some expensive (and controversial) gunsmithing. No comment on the 1903.
I agree with Glen, go with the Model 70 action straight across the board. I prefer the pre-64 action for .30-06-size cartridges, simply because the magazine system is exactly correct in all respects right from the factory.
I prefer the current Classic action for long magnums such as the .375 H&H, because the receiver is slightly longer than the pre-64, so there's more material behind the receiver lugs.
Either way, with the Model 70 action you get a big, flat-bottomed receiver and a beefy recoil lug with the forward action screw positioned BEHIND the lug for optimum bedding. You also get the best chrome-moly steel, excellent heat-treating, a simple, crisp, and rugged trigger system, fast lock time, and a very rugged one-piece firing pin, plus a host of excellent features that get routinely ADDED to Mausers at extra cost.
Quote: Originally posted by lb404..... Those faulting a '70 on gas handeling are on a theoretical fools errand.
I agree this is a pretty rash statement. As a person who had a case let go in a pre-64 model 70 I can tell you that this is probably the LAST rifle you want to have such a problem with, and it only takes one incident to make a real believer out of any person who has the unfortunate luck to have it happen. Because of this incident I am not inclined to make rash statements in connection with the pre-64 model 70. I will say the BIGGEST operator error would be not wearing safety glasses anytime you shoot one and that includes when you are hunting. I also will not use new brass while hunting anymore, I want to be sure that it has been fired at least one time before I take it to he field. In case you wonder what the caliber was, it was a 270 winchester with 60 grains of H4831 behind a 130 grain bullet. I had fired thousands of the exact same load at that time, and have fired thousands more since that. It was a brand new case and I can't help but believe there was a flaw in it. The back of the case let go at the primer pocket and gas and brass found its way into me eyes and face. A top notch opthamologist saved my eyes, so I am one lucky person.
I won't go so far as to say that the design is faulty, but I will say that it is a made to order tradgedy if something does happen. One look at the front of the bolt will show you the path Grandview spoke of. With the bolt closed the ejector groove is lined up perfect with the raceway and the model 70 does not have a substantial boltstop like many other rifles do to stop the path to your eyes. You get the full benefit if something goes wrong.
I too, have the utmost of respect for the folks on this board who love the pre-64 model 70. Shucks, I also do, but the gas handling on it sucks! There is no other way to put it. I won't say that the rifle should be condemed because of it, I am just saying that the chances for something bad happening if something goes amiss are probably the worst of any popular rifle I have seen. I also won't be one to say that it only happens to someone else. I now know better!!
It appears that the new classic has addressed the problem that the pre-64 had. Whether the baffle on the extractor ring does the trick I don't really know. When I had my accident with mine the extractor was blown off, but the extractor ring did stay in place so maybe it would do the trick. It is bound to be an improvement I would think.
Posts: 845 | Location: Central Washington State | Registered: 12 February 2001
Like others have said I would use the 98 for the 257 and 35whelen. I'd opt for the M70 for the 375. It wouldn't have to be a pre 64. I've had good results with the new manufacture.
Posts: 12881 | Location: Mexico, MO | Registered: 02 April 2001
Quote: Originally posted by turfman... I'm looking to build three rifles that are basically the same. I'm looking to build a .257bob, a 35whelen, and a 375H&H. I'm thinking springfield,pre64's, and mausers.
Out of these three; wich would you prefer and why .I have all three and have no bias towards any of them. I'd just like to hear what you guys think.
Since you have all three actions, I probably would build the .257 Roberts on the Mauser; the .35 Whelen on the Springfield; and the 375 H&H on the pre-64.
Each would make a nice unique rifle, and you have an historical connection between the actions and the three excellent chamberings.
GV
Posts: 768 | Location: Wisconsin | Registered: 18 January 2001
Quote: Putting my money where my mouth is, if someone were to offer me a set of pre-64 Model 70s in, say, .30-06 and .375 H&H with which to hunt the world for the rest of my career, and no other rifles, I'd taken 'em and go hunting, and no looking back. I'd bet my hunting investment and my life on the mechanical integrity of those rifles.
AD
Hey Allen I have those two rifles ready to go. Just go ahead and send me your current collection of hunting rifles and I will ship these two in exchange. You can rest easy knowing I will take good care of them. Oh by the way you will be allowed to visit them anytime.
Darn ZR1 beat me to the punch. I read Allen's and answered before reading the rest of the thread. Anyway Allen to sweeten the deal I will pay all shipping and insurance costs.
Posts: 2337 | Location: Moses Lake WA | Registered: 17 October 2000
Reloaders can be divided into two groups. Those who have had a case (or more!) fail and those still awaiting the exciting event.
Two of mine were in pre-64 Model 70s. Early 1970s while practicing from 1000 yard line. First was in rifle chambered in 308 Norma. Second in 7mm Rem Mag.
In those days I was sure of two things. The pre-64 Model 70 Winchester was beyond criticism and I was immortal.
In both instances I had loaded 70+ grains of 4831. Cases were, as I remember, formed from LC match brass. Fortunately our coach, a Marine Warrant Officer, required us to wear shooting glasses.
In those days I laid it off to bad brass. Overtime I've come to realize that hot loads were the culprit. More importantly the realization that cases can fail and WHERE is all that gas going.
The new Model 70 Classic, one of the clones, or a good Mauser are much more likely to prevent a face full of hot gas and brass.
Posts: 472 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 08 March 2002
Even so, and despite all the Chicken Little alarums, the pre-64 Model 70 is an extremely sound rifle. It's been proven around the world for over sixty years. It's been used to take countless big game animals; has been used to fill some incredible trophy collections; and it's been used to win innumerable high-power championships. It has nothing else to prove.
Putting my money where my mouth is, if someone were to offer me a set of pre-64 Model 70s in, say, .30-06 and .375 H&H with which to hunt the world for the rest of my career, and no other rifles, I'd taken 'em and go hunting, and no looking back. I'd bet my hunting investment and my life on the mechanical integrity of those rifles.
I prefer a good Mauser 98 to a pre 64 with the pre 64 being a close second...Most custom rifles are Mausers and there is a reason for that...As to metalurgy, I would rather have a Mauser blow up on me than a M-70..M-70 fragment when they go and a Mauser puffs up and will at best split a little..
But in fact one is as good as the other IMO, and thats all it is opinnion with any of us....
Posts: 41951 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000
There are two major areas where the current Model 70 Classic is better than the pre-64 Model 70, and I generally favor the current Classic action when I'm having a custom rifle put together, and I have favored it for the last eleven years:
1) Metallurgical
2) Gas handling
The current receivers are built of better steel, and they are much better heat-treated.
Some of the pre-64s were simply too hard, and would actually chip when the proof mark was stamped! Some of the top custom riflesmiths will actually anneal a pre-64 action if they find it too hard and have it re-heat treated.
The current gas system is excellent. The baffle attachment on the bolt certainly helps, but the generous gas escape ports in the bolt body that direct gas straight down into the magazine (ala Ruger 77!), rather than into the left bolt-lug raceway makes the biggest difference of all.
I asked David Miller one time about his insights on the Mauser 98, pre-64 M70, and current Classic M70 actions, since he's built some of the worlds finest custom rifles on all three action, and had a major role in the design changes that resulted in the current M70 Classic. I'll but Dave's experience and technical know-how up with the very best of 'em.
In a nutshell, he will certainly still build rifles on all three actions, but he feels as though the time of the Mauser is past. He prefers the current M70 Classic for belted magnums, but will also build these on pre-64 M70 actions "if the customer is adamant" about it.
