I have a target stock and wanted to finish it up pretty. For no other reason than I wanted to see what it would look like I lightly sanded to 1,500 and dewiskered then buffed with 4-O steel wool. I let it sit for a few weeks and as old oil would come out I would wash the stock with isopropyl alcohol to get it off. The pores are all open and waiting to be filled.

I sloshed on a mess of mix last night and then wiped it off.

I used mL since my containers were in mL's and I also added Jap Drier for which I need to calc how many drops to add, from left to right:
Purdeys Alkanet Root Oil, Japan Drier (only available in ONE place in Fairbanks) mineral spirits, Pure Tung Oil and Tru-Oil, the last bottle is what my mix looks like, very prtty but you cannot see it in the pic.
My mix is: ~2 mL Alkanet Root Oil, 30 mL Tung Oil, 60 mL Tru-Oil and 30 ml mineral spirits.
I added 4 drops of Drier which was a mistake. Never used it before and it really does speed up the drying. I had a gummy mix in about 20 minutes, had to really scrub to get it all off and then dry to the touch 30 minutes after that. It has been in a hood in one of the lesser used labs overnight.

My question: when I wet sand, do I go in circles or with the grain back-and-forth? I searched all the past threads and no-one mentioned this. Thanks.

Lastly: what is the length and screw pitch for the m98 front triggerguard retaining bolt? I need a longer one since this stock is about 0.300" deeper than usual.

[ 11-17-2002, 23:14: Message edited by: Roger Rothschild ]

With the grain only.

Mauser 98 guard screws have 1/4-22 threads. You can buy replacements through Brownells. They don't state the length. Brownells also sells unthreaded guard screw blanks that are 2.25" long. Of course, you will need a 1/4-22 die to cut threads.They are about $20.00 from Brownells.

Could you shorten a rear guard screw to fit the front?

Hmmmm...that is a very good idea. I will have to see if I can find one somewhere.
Thanks for the tip.

Roger,
Yes, with the grain. I like to sand a small area till the wet finish and sanding dust make a thick syrupy "mud" . I then make a "pad" of folded up paper towel and gently wipe with the grain, filling the pores and removing excess finish, going over the whole stock in this fashion.
Good luck.

Thanks for the replies.

I am still trying to figure out how the sanding does not leave scratches you can see once you are done? The wood now is sooooo nice and smooth. I know if I sand with 1000 or 1500 it will take me some time to fill the pores!! I have some grain filling compound I am going to use, I will also take a selection of paper with me so if I can't get anything going I can just step down. I have 400, 600 and 1500.
I am also going to try to connive a way into getting a cylinder of oxygen so I can "enrichen" the O2 content to make the finish, finish quicker.

[ 11-18-2002, 07:31: Message edited by: Roger Rothschild ]

Roger,
I find it a waste of time to go finer than 320 untill the grain is filled and the the surface hardens. After that you can sand as fine as you like ( I have better luck with paper than steel wool ) and as many coats for "depth" as you like.
BTW, in your original post did you say the stock was .3" deeper ? If there is a large gap between the magazine box top and the reciever it may cause the follower to hang up and cause feed problems.
Best

As you know there are exceptions to every rule and sanding wood has a bunch of them!

The rule is for finishing, sand with the grain. However, I find that to make sure all the scratches are removed that were left from the previous, coarser grit sandpaper if you sand perpendicular to the direction of previous sanding you will be able to see whether or not there are any scratches left.

Now what does that mean in english?

It means that say you are at 800 grit and want to go to 1500, how do you know when you have sanded it enough with 1500 to have removed the marks left by the 800 grit? Simple, just sand at a cross direction to what you were doing before, and since you were sanding with the grain before now you are sanding against the grain. You are probably only going to do this on a playing-card size area, but it will show you whether or not you have removed all of the scratches left by the 800 grit paper. When you are satisifed all the scratches have been removed, make passes with the grain to blend it all in with rest of the wood. This way it shows you how you are doing rather than "well I've sanded here for 20 minutes, it must be done by now...."

Regarding selection of grit sizes, I try to pretty much just double the mesh number, or get close to it i.e. 200 grit then 400 grit, then 800, 1500, etc... In reality you use what you have, you can go from 80 grit to 1500 grit if that is all you have but it will take longer.

Kboom,

Here is the pic, you can see the rear of the magazine box does almost touch the reciever. It is the way the stock is designed. If I don't mind ugly I can go with this and all is well. If I want pretty I can adjust the height and use epoxy to smooth up any gap. I am learning that Acra-glas can be used for just about anything.

Mark, thanks for the tip, now I have the idea of what I am supposed to be doing. I need to get some 320 grit paper now.

Roger,
Your mixture is basically Tung, tung and tung..so why not just use Tru oil and thin it 50% with mineral spirits, it has the solids and hardners needed for a gunstock finish and is what your trying to mix....

Sand with the grain and build up a mud, then rub the mud across the grain for the first 3 or 4 coats and let it dry like that, it will look rough..rubbing with the grain in the early stages just pulls the mud out of the pores, the proceed with wet sanding, building mud and wipe off very very lightly as you progress to the finer grits. An oil finish should stop at 400 grit. then use rotten stone and oil to polish.

Ray,

I was thinking about that this afternoon. I have had the stock in my room after I picked it up from the lab Sunday. I put it under three 100 watt goose-necked lamps to help cure it. All it did was make my room smell like...tung oil. I believe the volatiles were off by Sunday and now the slow hardeneing part is going. I can hardly smell it now unless it is warm and I get right down on it. I am going to take your advice though, I will pour in what I have left of the Tru-Oil then when I need some I will pour it into a glass vial and cut with mineral spirits. It would be a shame to toss the mix so I will use it as you said, cut 50% and all the rest of the Tru-oil.
I am looking forward to getting this wood done since this is the first time I have done it this way. The last four times I have used the Purdey Gunstock Care Kit, and while it makes a pretty rifle, it sure is a pain in the butt.

Ray,

I assume that using Tru Oil and the wet sand method you get a finish that looks like traditional oil finish?

Is there any advantage to using varnish for the mud coats? If so, is there any particular type you recommend? I was looking in the local hardware store and most seem to be modern polyurethyne (sp?) varnishes and I am not sure if they would be compatable with an oil finish..

Regards,

Pete

Pete E---

There're only two general finishes--- Varnishes and "oils" are thinned with mineral spirits or paint thinner.

The Lacquers and Shellacs thin with alcohol. Don't mix the two types but you can mix anything together within a group.

Linseed oils pass moisture through the finish. Hard varnishes (like spar and all the exterior urethanes) don't. Tung oil is a good substitute for the phenolic resins used primarily in spar varnishes.

I finish stocks to prevent the invasion of moisture, for UV protection, and to harden the stock against bruising and scratching. A mixture of marine spar varnishes, thinners, and penetrating urethane sealers does exactly that.

EXTERIOR finishes are designed for a wider range of temperature changes (if you've ever seen a 1970 Browning stock used in cold weather you know the value of that!) and for UV protection as well as added moisture resistance.

The bottom line is that the best stock finishes take roughly a hundred times longer to apply than the factories have to spend on them.

Jack,

Your post is very frustating as it provides just enough info for me to realise and appriciate just how little I know on the subject!

I am aiming for a "traditional" oiled look, but one which is both water proof and hardwearing.

A couple of years back I refinished my Sako wet sanding with alternate coats of Tung and Boiled Linseed. I found the results were good, but not that hardwearing to the point I am looking at refinishing it again.

Would you recommend starting with a traditional spar varnish for the mud coats then going to True Oil or sticking with Tru oil through out?

I am having great difficulty getting rotton stone in this country but have been told powedered french chalk will work instead..any comments on that?

regards,

Pete

[ 11-19-2002, 23:59: Message edited by: Pete E ]

Pete E,

For awhile I was using Tru-Oil/Mineral Spirits 50/50 and then dulling it down with fine steel wool. The results were at best fair and I found here in the Minnesota climate when you get a wet snowfall that the finish didn't seem to weather all that well.

Last spring a friend of mine showed me how he uses Deft Danish Oil/Mineral Spirits about 75/25 and wet sanded that into the wood anywhere up to 600-1000 grit. Needless to say I took one of those rifles that I finished with that Combo up too Orr, MN for this years deer hunt. A few days we had a somewhat of a wet snow and that finish really held its own under the elements. This is the stuff that I speak of.



http://www.deftfinishes.com/wood/deftoil.htm

Pete E---

There's not a nickels worth of difference in *any* finish when it comes to how it looks. The appearance depends on how you apply it and finish it.

I've never used rottenstone at all. I use the finest grade of 3M Scotchbrite pad or 0000 steel wool.....both used wet.

I don't care for Tru-Oil because it seems to fog when wet.

I like finish to soak WAAAAY into the wood. I thin a waterproof varnish until it can't help but penetrate up to 3/8 inch into very dense wood.

The real secret is DON'T be in a hurry. I paint the soaking coat on for 8 hours straight...inside, outside, and under every piece of furniture and then let it dry a month before doing anything else. The next step is to re-inlet the stock so that the metal fits again and then I wet sand once a week or so and finish off with a couple thin hand-rubbed coats wet sanded again between coats. The last thing is to lightly wet sand with the Scotch Brite pad and more oil. Wipe dry and let it hang another week.

It's a LOT of trouble. It takes a LOT of time. It works. It looks great. It wears like iron. It's as waterproof as you can make wood and still be useable as a stock.

Roger, I found this web site very informative about a number of things including stock refinishing:

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/

Wet sanding and filling the grain is discussed in great detail.

Pete,
Since you apparantly have not been finishing stocks for many years I suggest that you keep everything simple, Try this old time tried and true mix:

Optional: apply True Oil filler twice and wet sand. wipe across grain let dry and dry sand to surface of wood...this saves time.

A mix of 1/3 True Oil, or Ben Matte or Tung or most any tung based Oil; 1/3 Danish Oil; and 1/3 Mineral Spirits....

Sand stock to 220 grit and soak with the above until it will absorb no more, until it is all shiney when near dry..always wipe of excess...Let stand as long as you can stand it, 45 days is recommended by Pete Grissel, who uses only Truoil, according to him..

Then starting with 240 grit wet sand a mud build up and wipe ACCROSS grain with fingers. Let dry for 24 hours...Repeat with 320 grit twice. on the second application of 320 grit you begin to wipe very lightly with preferably non absorbant paper napkins WITH the grain, but gently so as not to pull your fill out of the pores and continue this through 400 grit or even 600 grit...Let stand for about a week and knock off the shine with oil mixed with Rotten stone or a fine scotch (maroon) pad soaked with oil and rotten stone. For a hi shine use the white scotch pad and oil. then wax a few days later.

Now that is the basics, you may find suttle changes that work for you...

Most all the finishes are equal, it is the application that counts and one finisher may do great with one and another just as experienced may not be able to apply that same finish nearly as well.

I prefer most any oil modified Urathane. A good practice is to take the wet sanded stock with dry out into the sun and inspect it all over with a magnafying glass and then you can detect any unfilled pores...if you have some then your not finished go back and hit it again with 400 until not one pore is left unfilled...

Always soak your end grains such as butt and under the pistol grip cap...finish the inside with about two or three coats at the start, and use the above mix but thinned even a bit more to a water like consistency.

To be perfectly clear on the above I thought I should re state: sand with the grain of the wood and wipe the mud ACROSS the grain of the wood for the first couple of applications...

I hope I am not beating this to death, but here is how I do it. I usally and, dry, only to about 320. I then soak the stock with a urethane/tung oil finish thinned to about 25% until the stock will not take any more. This may be anywhere from 6-10 coats depending on the porosity of the wood. I only stop when the pores are filled; you can see the dull spots in the finish if they are not filled, and then scrape off all the finish that is left on the wood with an old hack saw blade that has the teeth ground of (bleieve it) down to the wood. Next, I wet sand with 320 down to the wood, wipe it all off and let is set about two days or more. The next step is 400 grit wet sand and then a wipe off and you'r done. simple as that. I never sand more than 400 grit; it is a waste of time unless you want a high gloss finish (UGH)

Nope, I love reading this stuff. I copy and save them in Word files for future reference.

I need to get some thinner.

Jack, Ray & The others,

Thanks for the info. Reading all the responses with all the subtle differences/preferences, one thing is apparent; it takes time to get a good finish!

Thanks again,

Pete

One exception on sanding with the grain is on a high gloss built up finish with a hard shalac or Marine varnish or even a polyurathane built up finish, then you can sand in tight circles on top of the finish with fine grit sandpaper to give the finish a better purchase and interlocking grip with the already applied finish coats..The following coat will cover up the circle scratches very nicely.....