The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing After many years of forced silence--Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Jack, I read your explanation, understood it, and don't buy into it as being the horrible, covered up secret that you make it out to be. I think a lot of people here are the same, understand the technical aspects, but disagree with your interpretation as you apply it to accidents that may or may not be related to the trigger mechanism failure you postulate but cannot replicate. You're like a lot of adherents that are trying to convert the rest of the world to their particular brand of religion. It's in their favored book, you told it to them, it's obvious to you as a believer that it's true, but the rest of the world is too unenlightened to believe. The truth may or may not come out eventually. A lot depends on whether the truth is presented in court to people capable of understanding it by people articulate enough to express it and by clients rich enough to pay for it. The employment of "experts" who may or may not be articulate enough to explain what is really going on, and the fact that someone more articulate and not as technically correct as others may get more credibility makes it sometimes hard for the "truth" to come out in court. I know that the CNBC distortion didn't help the cause of "TRUTH" much at all. The real question is: What is the truth? CNBC sensationalism, your opinion, Remington's position, or something entirely different? dave | |||
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Jack, There is no aversion to knowledge. There is an aversion to a lack of logic. You state: "The connector was changed, the double sear was changed, the stamped housing was discontinued, the safety cam lift was increased, the sear overlap was increased and the return spring was made stronger but the DEFECT is still there and the document and the patent fully explains it." The patent does not fully explain any DEFECT. The patent explains a design which you happened not to like. You might be right I don't know. With respect to the flat tire analogy, that is apples and oranges because guess what we actually have flat tires with nails in them. We can physically see a flat tire with a nail in it. The defect doesn't disappear. In these cases, nobody seems to be able to replicate the failure with rifle in question. It also seems the majority of the rifles in questions were either a modified or poorly maintained. Please explain what failures you have been able to replicate and which ones you have not with an unmodified rifle. Because there is a video tape of you stating under oath you have never been able to replicate the failure. So may be in the post above you are referring to a different type of failure. I am with Dave above maybe you are right but you certainly aren't articulating well. Here is what your "argument" sounds like from a logic perspective. 1. I am an expert mechanic and I don't like the way Ford designed these brakes and here is what I don't like. 2. There are lots of people who have complained of brake failure. 3. Here is what I think is happening based on the design. 4. However, when under oath I must admit, I can't replicate the failure. 5. By the way nobody else can replicate the failure either. 6. But many people have sued for Ford over bad brakes and they all state they did nothing wrong. Conclusion: I am right the design is bad. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Jack, As I mentioned way back in the thread, I sent a model 600 off for the recall fix. It came back with a trigger that must be more than 10lbs. My plan is to replace the trigger. But I wonder, is it the normal practice for rifles receiving the recall fix to come back with such a heavy trigger? . | |||
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Mike-- The patent explains how the R-W trigger is supposed to do away with trigger 'slap' (old term for overtravel) by installing a SEPARATE trigger internally. It explains how this extra part is pushed away from it's seat on the trigger at every shot. My document points out very simple test that ANY shooter can do on his own rifle of most any make and model that shows the R-W trigger in NO way eliminates trigger overtravel and in fact the overtravel is EXACTLY the same as a trigger not having the extra,troublesome, internal part. Please explain exactly how a FSR happens, if not by displacement of the connector while the gun is on safe. It's the only way it CAN happen because the connector is supposed to catch the sear as the safety is released. If its not in proper position it fires from the action of the safety and not the trigger. There is no need, use or purpose for the flexibly mounted connector and triggers that contain it have a history of thousands of failures. By nature, a firearm is unduly dangerous if it shoots without human intention. By definition, the 'safe direction' is where the shooter is sure of his target and his backstop. A shooter can NOT do that with a gun that fires without his control. (anyone that's had an AD knows the cold feeling of dread wondering where that bullet will finally come to rest.) Can you take the connector and trigger out of a R-W without breaking the seals? Can you clean the surfaces of the connector and trigger body without taking them out of the housing? Can you block debris from entering the top of the trigger housing? Can you determine the position of the connector without disassembly of the rifle? Is there a reason the connector was retained in the design if it didn't do it's intended job and showed a history of failure with the first 200 rifles used by the public? Do you think the defense would pick any part of more than a hundred hours of testimony that showed the plaintiff's side of the case? Does anyone think those were the only questions asked of me? Shooters HAVE to take responsibility for the bullets they turn loose. DON'T let the politicians decide the risk is too great because the shooters aren't in control of the guns. Insist that guns be reliable to the point of knowing, without any doubt, that the trigger was pulled by a human in search of sport, defense, or to cause trouble...Period. There shouldn't be a fourth choice of 'the gun did it.' MOST firearms have a way of determining if a shot was fired minus a trigger pull...parts are broken, deformed or missing. If there isn't something preventing an AD, sooner or later one is going to happen. Its the nature of the sport and mechanics. What I attempted to do in the ten days before the CNBC special was shown was to educate GUNSMITHS so that when a customer comes in and says his Remington rifle went off without at trigger pull, the gunsmith won't say, 'Well, let me adjust that for you.' That would be stupid on his part and a danger to his economic well being. The answer should be, 'Yes, that's been known to happen and here are the options for preventing it in the future...'. Grenadier-- Yes unfortunately, instead of fixing the problem they instead adjust them much tighter to make the problem less likely to occur. And, more likely you'll take it somewhere and pay a guy to take on their liability for the original problem by breaking the seals on the trigger. Catch 22. You still have a bad trigger and now it doesn't work right, either. At least they're consistent. Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Gaining Emolumentation though Litigation  | |||
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How about explaining what causes the connector to become displaced? Besides the mystical, and as of yet, unprovable buildup of debris between the connector and the trigger? You know, the stuff you testified to having never personally seen?
There is something, it's called a brain.
BINGO! Problem solved! _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Some of us have for many many years. ----- Seems to be a significant lack of belk supporters. For those that still support him, when belk was asked what he got paid. he said, "Not one thin dime!" Soooo, how many of you actually believe belk paid out of his own pocket for the Transportation to the Court, paid out of his own pocket for the Lodging, paid out of his own pocket for Meals, and paid out of his own pocket for Transportation back to whereever he exists - without being PAID? I'll go on record as saying "Not one thin dime!" is 100% pure  Same as belks actual understanding of the excellent Remington Trigger Design.----- For those of you trying to reason with him or get him to actually explain anything, best of luck to you.  | |||
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How does a brain prevent an AD? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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The purpose of the connector is to allow a mechanical surface to move out of the way of the falling sear. Remington's intent or Walkers intent was to have a trigger that broke clean like a very precise ground contact surfaces trigger like a Timney, Canjar, etc. What you don't seem to understand is that even if the trigger is redesigned with out the connector as in a Timney it can still AD if not properly maintained and adjusted. And that is true of all triggers. The Remington trigger doesn't exhibit any characteristics that I would consider any more or less troublesome then any other trigger on the market. You see in most laboratories they would take this trigger apart and cut away the housing as to allow a view into the internals of the trigger. Reassemble it and conduct a series of tests. with high speed cameras taping the action. Well there is how you can prove to Remington once and for all they are wrong. So get to it. Have you run any analytical's on it? Stress analysis?? Fatigue analysis?? HAve you plugged this design into a CAD program and actually ran it through it's movements. No?? because you are not an engineer and have no engineering background. The smiths here can see better then you how this thing functions. Because in theory anything will work www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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An AD is only caused by the brain so therefore it can only be prevented by the brain. Root cause... ROOT CAUSE.... You ever hear of Idiot proof???? it works till a smarter idiot comes along www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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If these idiots were to use their brains when handling and maintaining their guns, then there wouldn't be any of these AD's. You have to be conscious, alert and awake. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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This saga is eerily reminiscent of the Dow Corning silicone breast implant case. Junk science + tears = big $$$$ And silicone breast implants are back on the market. | |||
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I am just still confused because all of sudden we are back to... thousands of failures that have occurred because of a bad design but can only be replicated when we alter the mechanism aka the "design" Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike-- If you're going to test a nail proof tire, do you stand the nail UP or lay it down and drive a thousand cars over it? Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Well, you just got them lawyers lookin' for "expert" witnesses standing in line, don't ya? The word must be out that you do it for free. | |||
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I watched the CNBC show. A picture is worth a thousand words. What I thought was funny was the cops saying they call them "Remington moments," on the range and then give the all clear. Funny shit. I always did think Remingtons sucked. I remember hearing about all this bullshit years ago, before I ever joined this site. I am a firm believer that where there's smoke..............kinda like that poor bastard that went to jail for manslaughter only to find out, he was right the accelerator DID stick............ There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Big Foot sightings are directly in proportion to the proximity of alcohol. | |||
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All paths to hell are paved with good intentions and you have intentionally or not placed another tile. Your intention as stated, "I do this because guns are my life's passion and I think its best if people are aware of the truth behind the scenes. Only in that way can guns be brought up to the standards they were at prior to WW-II. To lose the inherent safety devices and methods developed by the gun pioneers is a shame. Especially when its done on a massive scale without warning to the customers". I appreciate the truth and you have done a good job of explaining how there might be a potential for an un-predictable failure based upon Remington's trigger design but am not in favor of losing another American gun manufacturer over it. A good one at that. To say that the guns were all safer before WW II is interesting considering all the additional key lock, cross bar and transfer bar type mechanisms that have found their way onto most of the current production pre ww I and II guns. The only safety issue you are concerned with appears to be the Remington trigger. The real issue, that lacks a voice outside of this forum, is the lack of knowledge and respect for guns that has infected the gun culture which I am sure can be attributed to most of the gun related injuries today. I was raised in a gun culture, the guns were on display in a glass cabinet with full access. Today we hide guns from our children in fear that they will hurt themselves and the problem with that ideal is that their ignorance is what gets them killed. Assuming that I own a m700 or an antique or whatever and I don't load it until I am ready to shoot it. I always keep it pointed in a safe direction when loaded and have it pointed at the target when flipping off the safety pretty much eliminates any possibility that a malfunction will lead to an injury. So proper gun handling and safety should be of much greater importance in this case than the possibility that a poor trigger design might cause A.D. under certain special circumstances. Captain Finlander | |||
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 Louis L'Amour was found of writing in his books, "only empty guns kill people" Same sentiment as yours above. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Mr Belk - I have read your document several times over, and the ‘experiment’ you cite merely shows that a Remington-Walker trigger has some creep, or pre-release movement, and some over-travel, or slap. Of course it does – ALL triggers have SOME of both. They have to. IN NO WAY does your ‘experiment’ DISPROVE the patent claim that the use of the trigger connector in the R_W trigger reduces over-travel. I asked you in another thread you started on this same subject to explain in simple engineering terms why you claim that the patent is a lie and that Stuart Otteson’s explanation of the workings of the trigger unit is wrong. Your response was evasive, to put it politely, and certainly did not answer the question. In a later thread, I posted the following: Quote: Though I cannot prove it beyond all possible doubt, I believe that part way through the action of the sear and trigger (or trigger connector) separating, there is a position which, for want of a better term, I will call the Point-Of-No-Return. It can be demonstrated as follows. Take any bolt action rifle fitted with a two lever, over-ride type trigger that has an over-travel adjustment screw, and which is functioning correctly. (but NOT a Remington rifle fitted with a Walker trigger) Put it in a vise, check that the chamber is EMPTY, turn the o-t screw IN a tiny amount, cock the rifle and pull the trigger. If the striker drops normally, turn the o-t screw in a fraction further and try again. Eventually, the point will be reached where you can see, hear, and generally sense that although the striker is dropping when the trigger is pulled, it is NOT releasing cleanly. Turn the o-t screw in a fraction further and try again. Then - or after further iterations - the point will be reached where the striker will move very slightly but not drop, though you will probably see, hear and sense that the system is TRYING to release, but cannot because the trigger piece can’t move back far enough to allow the sear to drop. That is the Point-of-No-Return. Without touching anything else, carefully back the o-t screw out – and watch the striker drop. For all normal uses, the o-t screw MUST be backed out far enough to provide sufficient clearance for the sear to drop freely. (which is not exactly hot news!) Now, what happens with a Remington rifle fitted with a Walker trigger when pulling the trigger moves the CONNECTOR as far as the Point-of-No-Return? Well, it doesn’t matter if the trigger piece does stop dead right there, because the connector will swing forward and thereby provide the clearance necessary for the sear to drop. So, Mr Belk, I cannot see for the life of me how the Walker system does NOT permit less trigger movement than is necessary with a ‘solid’ trigger lever. I have little doubt that you will continue to say that Walker is wrong, the patent is wrong, Otteson is wrong, and I am wrong, but for the moment, anyway, I remain unconvinced. End of quote Your response to this did not answer the question, either. So, for the THIRD time of asking, could we please have a plain, simple explanation? Another point relating to your initial document. You state Quote: Should the trigger be pulled on a Remington-Walker, and the connector become displaced so that it does not return with the trigger, the shooter feels the trigger return not knowing the connector did not follow along with the trigger to its proper place under the sear. End of quote. How CAN the trigger return? As you have noted, the trigger weight spring bears on the connector, not the trigger lever. If the connector becomes jammed in a forward position, the trigger lever will not return to anywhere – with no spring pressure on it, it will be free to rattle back and forth between the engagement adjustment screw and the over-travel screw. You think that no shooter could be expected to notice this? | |||
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redrover--I really appreciate your analysis. THIS is the discussion I was hoping to get started. Thank you for taking the time and being curious enough to really look at it. You have the motions down right and you DO understand the trigger. Now its a matter of zeroing in on the details. Your OT screw experiment is great. MANY triggers will hang the sear on the OT and you'll have release of the sear with the trigger but without a fire. That is because the sear and trigger have an improper clearance angle, or too much 'slop' in the pivots. Many custom triggers have a clearance 'step' just behind the trigger shelf. This step (as found on early Sako, most Canjars, and many Jewels) not only gives a relief area so the sear truly falls all the way from the trigger but also sets the precise location of the active trigger corner. Some triggers have that corner behind the pivot line, some are on the pivot line and some are ahead of it, but that line has to be precise as do the trigger and sear pivot holes and of course the length of both parts. SO, the answer to that portion is that properly done, the sear reaches the point of no return..and falls cleanly at the same time. With my microscope I can measure the clearances, overlaps and other dimensions while they are assembled (standard practice when we have joint inspections of Remingtons and others.) I have four Canjars that have .011 engagement and .002 OT for a full pull of .013 at the tip of the trigger. These are two lever triggers with exactly the same 'parts' as a Remington, but missing the connector. I think metallurgically speaking, and of course economically speaking, those triggers represent the top of the line factory-made trigger and without putting a lot of faith in tighter tolerances, should be considered the ultimate trigger pull with two levers. I have successfully set up epoxied and ground Remingtons to the same specs, but it's rare to find a housing that has the pivot holes square enough to do it. A jig grinder can correct the holes, but if you have to rent one its cheaper to make another housing. SO, by actually doing it, I can reduce the Remington trigger motion by nearly two thirds by going to a square, solid trigger. You cant do that with the Walker unless you want contact of the sear and connector during firing pin fall. That, of course, is not condusive to accuracy but most would never know. Good point on the stuck connector, but you missed something. The bottom of the connector is above the trigger pivot point. There is always spring tension on the trigger. Less of it, of course, but it's there. The same spring tension can be felt with the rifle in the pin down, fired position. The connector is being held away from the trigger body by the nose of the sear but spring tension is still on the trigger in lesser amounts. A very common failure (one I had as a kid but didn't know why) is to have a 'hair' trigger pull on the first couple of shots after storage. The connector 'sticks' forward from goo or rust or just because the spring has stacked or hung up on the OT screw. Something keeps the connector out of place for a couple of shots, then goes to operating normally. The factory calls this condition advantageous because it can't be duplicated. (That document is at drinnonlaw.com) My testimony that the connector is in the trigger to cut cost could be totally right because with the angled connector the sear only has to overcome the majority of the friction between it and the top of the trigger (connector) instead of having to have the precision necessary to cause the sear and trigger to disconnect in a sharp line that has to be right in two orientations so that the pressure is evenly distributed across what becomes a very intense pressure zone that can chip brittle steel or roll and deform soft steel. I've testified that "a certain amount of precision is required to obtain a 'good' trigger." Good meaning to the shooter as being short, crisp and consistent, but resistant to impact and vibrational forces normally associated with guns. The Walker IS less precise than other triggers. Sloppily so in the very early folded sheet metal housings. But they failed in the first run of 200 rifles and Walker saw why it was failing, suggested a simple, no-cost, fix, but it wasn't done until 2006. (in a more complicated, but better, and expensive form) But the lack of precision costing less to manufacture does not account for their near fanatic defense of a mechanism that on its face is more complicated than needed for such a simple job. For a nickle it could have been repaired, or for less than that, a competing trigger patent could have been licensed. Only the defense of the patent fits all the facts and points to the real reason the connector was retained for 60 years against all challenges. Remington's own documents explain the entire story with very few gaps. More and more of them are becoming available and should be made available so shooters know exactly what the story is. Its obvious I can't educate everybody and I'm sure there are some that would deny a problem if the CEO told them in person and demonstrated it with a multi-media presentation. Such is human nature Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Jack I know there is a lot you cannot say however there is more to this story and it may take time but everything will come out. As we corresponded one of my friends was involved in this until fairly recently and there is a Lot more to come. Many here do not care if Remington was at fault or not and are blinded by the fear that a major manufacturer knew of a defect in their product and for cost reasons ignored it for decades. The folks are known as “Remmybaun’s”  who will ignore the truth or in some cases do not even care. In any case it is an accurate reflection of what you get on internet boards. | |||
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Why not just put this whole thing on ignore; next thing you know Jack will start complaining about some cataract surgery he needs and hasn't got any health insurance or money to pay for it. Hey, I know, how about we all donate some money. Maybe we could even find an opthamologist to trade the surgery for some gun work, Yeah that sounds good. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Cusom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Jim--LOVE YOUR WORK! There is more to this than what is in the public domain. It is going to be kicked around for quite some time and everyone has their opinion but in the end opinions are like a lot of things and everybody has one. Remington has an issue here that is compounded by the “liberal left” no doubt, however, that does not in itself mean that they should receive complete “blind” support by everyone in the shooting community Just because they are Remington. Would I buy another Remington product---yes without question. The problem that exists for them is more complicated than simple recall of product just by the nature of what they build and what it is used for and capable of. | |||
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Jack, There is one major flaw in your logic...you MODIFY the tire before you drive it over the nail and say its a bad tire design even though you have modify it. Also, I struggle with your logic given that you have already testified that you can't replicate it without modifying the tire. Additionally, your tire analogy is off base because you are talking about a materials test as opposed to a mechanical system. Besides...lots of people who repair tires have found nails in them. So far nobody can replicate the failures on an unmodified 700. And with respect to your debris theory, I believe you have already testified that you have never examined one of the failed guns that had debris in it... Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Jack, Three simple questions and I would ask you not to respond unless you intend on answering the questions. 1) Have you ever been able to replicate the problem on a 700 that has not been modified? 2) Have you ever been able to replicate the problem on a properly maintained firearm? 3) Have you ever been able to replicate the claimed problem on the specific rifle of the lawsuit without modifying it? Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Besides the fact that it can't or is nearly impossible to replicate. All he is doing is adding to frivolous lawsuit. The cause the real cause of nearly all these deaths was not due to the trigger malfunction. It was due to poor gun handling. The fact that the firearm discharged is not of consequence it is where the firearm was pointed when it discharged that is the issue. Mr. Belk you have succumb to the misdirection our antigun adversaries are so good at. Blame the gun..... That's like a Tool maker blaming the machine for a fouled up part. I'll say it again since you can't seem to get it through you thick head ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS. Regardless of whether or not the trigger was faulty the firearm was loaded and pointed where it should not have been. This BS of "what's a safe direction" is a cop out. You know damn good and well a firearm pointed at the ground is just about the safest direction a firearm can be pointed No matter if standing on dirt or a steel plate. The bullets energy will be dramatically reduced before and fragments or a ricochet can do major damage. Granted it is not perfect but it's better then looking down the muzzle and hoping for the best. and to say Pre WW II guns are safer is a joke. There's a reason why you only loaded five rounds in a six shot revolver??? hammer shot guns, lever guns. All it take is a sharp blow to the hammer and bang. My father, My Grand father, My Hunter safety instructor and more then a few military buddies all say the same thing. Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction and the only thing you will kill by accident is earth worms or flies. Blow a hole in the sky or the ground not your friend. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I watched both the CNBC program and the videos on the Remington site. The one that sticks out the most to me is when Jack Belk says, under oath, that he has never been able to duplicate the problem. Secondly, there have been several posts along the lines of "wait till all of the story comes out", or someting similar. Okay, fine, so why didn't Jack wait until ALL the facts came out? Why start muckraking now? I know, because any claim can be made and if someone disagrees with you, you can fall back on the old "I am forbidden to discuss it, I have to wait until I can discuss it, I can never discuss it, and have to take it to my grave, but trust me, I am telling the absolute truth", defense. I understand there are people out there who really dislike Remington, and that is fine, but there is an old saying "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face." By stepping up on Belk's soapbox, defending him and joining in on the Remington bashing, how long will it be until he and his minions help sue other firearms companies for people's stupidity? No matter how safe you make a product, no matter how much you over engineer it, no matter what instructions, warnings, etc. you give, human stupidity will ALWAYS win out. For all those who defend this action, I hope I am never at a range with any of you as you seem to ignore the human stupidity part, you know, basic gun safety rule #1...never point the muzzle at something you don't want to shoot?...and instead place blame on an unproven (unless you are Jack Belk) defect in a firearm. There was a lot of complaints about Ruger several years ago when they stopped offering adjustable triggers in their rifles. Anyone care to guess why? Remington has very deep pockets so they may well be able to weather this out, but what about smaller companies that just make trigger assemblies, or produce actions on a limited small run basis? I will admit that what I know about Jack is what I have read on this forum. If I am wrong, let me know, but in a nutshell I have gathered that he is a very talented gunsmith, that quit abruptly, owing people money or projects, leaving no way for a majority of those customers to contact him and with no recourse. He then surfaces after a "forced silence" leading the charge in a major lawsuit, or many, against a major firearms company. He seems to post quite a bit about this, but nowhere in his recent posts does he seem to address any of HIS OWN misdeeds, if you will. Again, this is what I have read on this forum and if I am wrong let me know, please, but if this is basically correct why is it that there are still many Belk supporters, but when Greg Hein did the same thing, there were almost calls to have a lynch mob go out and take care of him. To me, IF what I read is true, then there is no difference whatsoever between the two. | |||
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JACK why dont you spend some time on finishing projects for which you took money for, from your then customers, why dont you return the money you took from people and not done any work, that would be time better spent.Your a cheat a crook and a thief!!!! | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...11043/m/54110415/p/1 This get resolved? | |||
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Not to defend Jack...But the position he has taken regarding Rem. triggers. I'm in the camp that says you point a gun in a safe direction at all times. Especially when loading, unloading, and messing with the safety. I watched the Rem. program. When Walker said that he realized the potential problem and designed a fix and that Rem. decided not to go with it. That's when I knew there IS A PROBLEM!!! He said that he tried many times over the years to get them to change it and they would not. Did you folks go for a fresh beer or a potty break and miss that part of the show? So, who should we believe here? The guy that designed the trigger or the company that also claims that they don't have problems with bolt handles falling off and broken extractors? Did you also miss the part where Law Enforcement guys and the Military acknowledge they are aware of the problem? I guess it's easier to "kill the messenger". That is what this forum does best. Jack, You've done what you can with this subject. This is not your life's work. Get your ass off the computer and do what you do best...build guns. | |||
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Apparently you didn't the memo, or, you walked out to get a beer yourself. This was covered here, in detail. http://m.remington700.tv/# Click on the video that says "A Report on the Facts"  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Oh really???? Remington's marketing arm with oversight by their attorney's says its fact.......Well then case closed. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Thanks for pointing that out to me. I just finished viewing it. It's pretty obvious that Howard's comment is right on. Did you notice that they DID NOT DISPUTE Walker's statements? They attacked the reporters for showing up and talking to him. | |||
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Why yes I did! That was not the only time they mentioned "facts" they attempted to switch the issue from the "facts" to something else. The preponderance of evidence certainly seems to be on Remington's side but their behavior is of one having something to hide. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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There are two sides Howard. Having actual experience with these triggers, I tend to lean towards the side that makes sense. Remington disputes the claim made by the reporter regarding the military and police AD's. I believe them. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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just because there is an engineer that says there's a problem doesn't mean there actually is one. Once again it's possibility and probability. The other fact is there is no case for product safety, Negligence, Willingly ignoring a safety issue unless it can be proven that the mechanism is inherently dangerous and presents an undue risk. And it presents a danger all by itself as in just by being there. This can not be shown to be true. Because if all the safety precautions are followed no one will die. I hate to sound like a broken record but that is how OSHA would look at it. They would come in preform their investigation and then ask was the proper safety protocol followed. Answer = NO! then regardless of design it was the operators fault. I deal with this kind of crap daily. I have to make recommendations to customers base on interpretation of law and what will OSHA do if something happens. I also contact OSHA for advice and clarification. I have not read through all of the cases Remington has been involved with but the ones on the show all point to user error and again regardless of design of the rifle. I don't own a Remington. I don't really care for their looks. But I can't let BS like this go unchallenged. So what if there is a design defect in the trigger. It is still safe as long as the proper precautions are followed pure and simple. I'm not trying to argue if there is or is not a problem with the trigger but whether or not a death is the direct result of the trigger. Thats the way the court should look at it. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Of course there are two sides and I lean one way too. I just gently objected to the tone which seemed to be.............CNBC and Belk put out lies...........now let the other side explain the facts.  Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Spot on............nor because an employee says the company should do something does it mean it should be done. On the other hand then just because an engineer says there is no problem doesn't mean there isn't one either.
Disagree..........it would be the employers fault. Always is.
In this state and I understand many other states there is something called shared responsibility. In other words the operator could be found primary liable but the part or equipment could be found partly liable. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Howard CNBC may not have lied but they damn sure stacked the conversation in their favor. Twisting facts to the limit, misdirecting information, misleading questions. Typical serial news tactics. I think Remington's response was actually pretty justified and not very overboard at all. They brought up valid points. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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