Do all the original Brno 21Hs, 7x57, have the double set triggers or were some made with one trigger?...this would be a double square bridge model...

What questions to ask to determine if original??

Finally, value ranges for gun in good condition...original? or modified trigger, stock, etc.

Thanks for the help!

I have handled one that had a single trigger and the original bottom metal was cut for this; it belonged to a friend of mine about 15 years ago and he traded it off. Johan from Sweden has posted pix of others with single triggers and even with ZG-47 safeties, these are, IMO, the FINEST production sporting rifles ever made.

Alf, Johan and KurtC might chime in with further info as I have only three of these and am not the ultimate expert on them. As to value, they cost much less in Canada than in the U.S. and even a modified one is going to cost you some $$$$.

I stripped one for the action and have a Timney trigger, a Wisner safety, Argy 1909 bottom metal and a Shilen .338-06 barrel coming together for it. With a Bansner stock or a Micky Edge if available, I hope to make a very light mountain rifle with serious Elk/Grizzly capabilities.

Some 21/22s definitely came from the factory with single triggers. Not many but some. I've examined 2 and the triggerguard assemblies were cut specifically for the single triggers, not "aftermarket" jobs.

Any one got a range of pricing to share...

Single trigger style and Double triggers style price range???

Need some help..Please!

I paid $635 a couple of years ago for a 21h that had a single trigger put in place of the double triggers. The rifle is in scruffy condition but shoots ok.

I paid $830 for a 22f thats nicer and was pretty much orginal but well used about a year ago.

They are no where near "the best factory rifle", good grief.

Here is the 21h with a new scope and a nice sling. It's a good gun for circa 1945 or so but no pre 64 Featherweight or even close to a Kimber.

quote:

Best is a relative term. If someone thinks they are the best, who am I to piss on their parade? They sure as heck are nice! You can't argue that!

it's a lot like that discussion of "classic". It means different things to diffeent people.

All I can say i sthat I'd really like to have a 21 or 22 in original condition regardless of caliber.

Ok...so what is an original..no modifications... H21 80+% stock...barrel 95+%...7x57 carbine worth??????

JJS,
It's a fantastic little rifle. Almost every 21 and 22 I have seen had double set triggers.

What type of safety does your rifle have, manufacturing year, etc?

I have no idea what the prices are in US.

Cheers
/JOHAN

If the rifle originally had double set triggers, the bottom metal will have a long, thin slot in it and two holes drilled from the side. A single trigger model will just have one short, large hole. If the bottom metal has both, well, someone's been screwing with it.

Unmolested half stock models in nice shape usually start around $1000, with full stock models going up to around $1500 or more.

8x57 models are the most common and can be found for considerably less. The 7x57 is next, but has a lot of appeal to US shooters. The 8x60, 7x64 and 6.5x57 are extremely rare.

I would watch out for excessive headspace on these guns. That 7X57 in the picture above is .003" over the no go gage. Now I can live with .003" over but .004" is my limit. Even then one has to be careful fireforming and setting the FL die while checking with a wire for insipiant head separations.

The 8X57 that I got has good headspace but I had one for a day that was way over and lucky for me my dealer has ethics and he took it back. That same dealer took another 21h 7X57 in for a customer off the net and that one has big problems and sits there waiting to be sent back.

These guns were not designed complete as they were only made for a short while. The safeties are unuseable with a scope as the are right under the eyepiece and very hard to work. Worse than that is they don't lock the bolt and this Mauser will not keep it's bolt closed. This is unacceptable.

On the postitive side they are cute and also thin. I appreaciate a thin rifle which is much easier to carry. The bolt handles were also designed wrong and they stick up way to far from the root of the bolt making a low scope nearly impossible. Most of these bolts have been cut to correct this and then the handle is inletted into the stock as it should have been in the first place.

All in all they might have developed into a complete gun had they been made under free enterprise. As it was importation seems to have been stopped in the USA due to the cold war.

When I compare the 3 Brno21H rifles I own, the ZG-47 I also own, the Mannlicher-Schoenauer I own and the FN sporter I own plus the Oberndorf sporter by a German custom house with the three dozen Pre-64 Mod. 70s and the Kimbers I own/have owned, it becomes apparent to me that the 21H rifles have far superior finish and fitting plus a vastly superior scope mounting system and the finest breeching system designed for sporting rifles. Of course, some individual rifles that have been abused/neglected by ignorant dorks who cannot appreciate real quality may not be up to the original factory standard, but, that is irrelevant to my original point.

The various controls meet European standards which are DIFFERENT from, NOT inferior to, American standards and to state that they are is typical Yankee jingoist bullshit. If, you prefer one to the other, fine, but different styles of stock and safety are NOT inferior to the softwood clubs used on the Mod. 70.

The stock wood in Brno21H rifles is hard, dense European walnut, vastly superior to the crap found in P-64 handles and the entire rifle is much superior. Of course, this is an opinion based on actually using all of the above rifles in the wilderness conditions of western Canada, for protection and hunting big game, not, for strolling around suburban meadows attacking dangerous Woodchucks or Meadow Mice.

The supposed headspace issues are, again, a product of the ignorance of those whose rifle knowledge is severely limited by lack of real experience. The FACT is that European standards differ from American, especially in the chambering of older rounds like the "57" Mauser series....most serious rifle nuts know this and deal with the "problem" accordingly. Once again, simply because something was made in the U.S.A. does not make it superior to Euro designs/manufacture and the Brno21H exceeds ANY American made rifle in quality by a large margin.

Kimbers are pretty much junk and Dakotas are very over-priced and over-rated; I would never buy another of either of these, but, I would buy ANY 21H or ZG-47 that comes up for sale. If, you don't like the safety, simply replace it with a Beuhler, Recknagel, La Pour or whatever; this design feature has nothing to do with the actual quality of the rifle, it is the preference of those who built and bought them.

About the only American built rifle that I would currently buy would be the Hein and these are not "production" rifles as the 21H was. The American rifles mentioned are ALL just copies of the Euro designs and largely inferior ones, at that. What next, maybe a DCM Springfield is "better" than an FN sporter....geezzus wept and no fuggin wonder!

It was the impassioned endorsments from Ray Atkinson and Kute that got me interested in the Brno 21's and 22's. I was looking for something to buy that was interesting and if it was better or not than what I had it would be ok as I already am all set with many suitable guns.

Thus I stand by my previous comments and now that the stock wood came up as a topic I would say that the wood on the Brno's is the worst I have ever seen on any gun. Its soft, has knots and may not even be a hardwood. I have seen better beach stocks on economy guns.

If you search Kutenays posts back you will find that he does not use tne subject guns at all as they came as I do but instead has just about every aspect of them changed. That was my main complaint about them that they are not a complete package as the were made and thus an orginal one is just, to me, a collector piece.

The Brno rendition of the Mauser has some other design defects that make it unsuitable as a game rifle and that is the fact that the left lug bolt height and corresponding action raceway is too high. What happens is that if you load the magazine in a hurry any round that moves that way will get stuck in the left raceway!

For a persons first Brno 21/22 I suggest a full stock as with these guns it's all about the "look" and they have that in spades. Make sure you get a carbine also with the 20.5" barrel as there are some rifles out there with longer barrels. Looks wise it's the carbine thats got it.

You can see how high the scope has to be mounted to clear an unmodified bolt on a 22f. One would not even have contact with the very low comb that these rifles came with to see thru that scope.

The one in the picture is priced very high and has a long barrel. The cartridge is unusual and that could have appeal as the action is really too long for a 7X57 anyway.

Guns America

Among the Brno 21/22s, I like the full stock (22F) carbine with "double square bridges" the best. The longer barrel looks OK on the half stock versions (21H) but the carbine half stocks look cool too. All mine have been been double square bridge models (1949-1954), the earlier versions (1946-1948) like the one pictured above have the more traditional ring & bridge which require drilling (yuck) to mount a scope.

The main drawbacks IMO are the fact that the bolt handles do not lock on safe, early versions do not have a guide rib on the bolt body and the bolt handle stems require a very high scope mount to clear the scope eyepiece, which together with the low combs make it necessary to raise up to see through a scope.



All are beautiful desirable rifles IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
..........these are, IMO, the FINEST production sporting rifles ever made.

I stripped one for the action and have a Timney trigger, a Wisner safety, Argy 1909 bottom metal and a Shilen .338-06 barrel coming together for it. With a Bansner stock or a Micky Edge if available, I hope to make a very light mountain rifle with serious Elk/Grizzly capabilities.

unfathomable

Europeans seem to have no problem holding their head up when they shoot. Your cheek only needs to touch the stock lightly for an added bit of stability. I find this method more comfortable than having to crawl the stock to shoot a low scope.

I've yet to figure out why people on this side of the pond can't hit anything unless they mount a scope 1/2" above the barrel.

Well, I suppose it isn't impossible to raise one's head up a little.
What's far worse is when someone butchers one of these classics with a drill.

I seem to recall that the stand up and shoot em silhouette boys used scopes mounted so high as to be impractical for regular use. Part of the gamesman ship that ruined the game. So, it is entirely possible to do so, just not the norm for most of us. I would think the low scope comes from trying to duplicate the low line of sight with irons. I know that I for one don’t like the high or see thru mounts. I could live with the setup on a Brno though.

Once again, we have the spectacle of a suburban "expert" telling us all about ...game rifles..., WITHOUT the wilderness experience to back up his foolish comments. I would point out that Finn Aagaard used a Brno 21H for decades in Africa and used the same rifle successfully here in northern B.C. to shoot Elk, the people who were with him on that hunt told me about this firsthand. But, WTF would a mere African Professional Hunter with Finn's experience know???

I modify SOME of my rifles to fit the parameters that I am used to for working rifles in the remote wilderness of B.C., AB., the Yukon and the N.W.T. This includes using bottom metal that is adaptable to a synthetic stock, the Wisner style safety that is identical to the Mod. 70 safeties I am used to and the single trigger that I prefer. While the plain, hard WALNUT (Juglians Regia) of the Brno stocks when glassbedded and re-finished is far superior to any Mod. 70 I have done the same modifications to, it is not as good as a top quality synthetic stock in the conditions I hunt in.

I used my first 21H in 1965 to hunt Mule Deer in the deep snow and harsh cold of the West Kootenays; I found that I did not like the safety and I don't care for double set triggers, but, these are personal preferences as is the comb height and stock style. I do know that my first custom rifle, an P-64 FWT.-.270 by Al Biesen would NOT begin to shoot the tiny groups that my Brnos and Mannlichers do,but, since Jack O'Connor said they were best, why should I dare to think otherwise.

The minty 21H in 7x57 that is in my gunsafe at present will keep 140 NPs in .75" at 100M consistently WITHOUT ANY modifications; my other one, re-chambered to .280 Rem. puts 160 NPGMFs into .6" at 100M without missing a beat and these are with 4X scopes, one a Leupold and the .280 wears a West German Zeiss. My P-64s will not beat that or usually equal it without bedding work.

The parts I mentioned are being made into a backpacking rifle in .338-06 or 9.3x62 with a synthetic stock for the lightest, best functioning BIG GAME rifle possible, to be used where Grizzly attacks upon hunters happen several times per year.After packing a rifle in this country for 42 years, this is the best choice I can make as quality counts more than theory based on suburban, armchair bullshit.

I might add that I stated that it was my OPINION that these are the finest factory production rifles ever produced, NOT that they cannot be modified or improved. The P-64 Mod. 70 is also a good rifle, BUT, it needs considerable re-working to reach it's design potential....which is STILL inferior to the Brnos. If, you load ANY CRF rifle incorrectly it can/will malfunction; this is the weak point of CRF just as "shortstroking" is the weak point of PF rifles.

But, WTF, buy a p.o.s. kimber and rave about their "customer service" because most of their rifles have to be returned to the factory for adjustment....this is quality?????

I am uncomfortable with a very low stock and high sights. The Brno 21/22 were designed in the early years of the use of scopes today they would not be made that way.

Nice old guns but they jam shells in the left raceway and are just about unusable for hunting out of the box.

I don't like a drill taken to nice old guns either and I am a good owner for factory guns as I will use them if they are reasonable from the start. About the only thing usable on the Brno is the action and the bolt body.

To each his own.

As to Kutenays so called wilderness experiance I say that he has had those guns for decades and has missed most of their shortcomings. It's quite unfanthomable to suggest a factory gun thats unsuable as it comes.

The Kimber rifles have a sixty year advantage in modern development. They are the state of the art today. The Brno effort never rose above the horizon.

I got one even better:

A guy emailed me recently about a pristine ZG-47 he had located and was prepared to pay a big price for it. First thing he was gonna do was mill off the double square bridges so he could install "standard" scope bases, weld on a lower-profile bolt handle, replace the safety with a M70 type, try to figure out a way to replace the trigger, rebarrel with some high-priced barrel, and install a synthetic stock for adverse climates.

Need I say more?

2 weeks ago, I bought a nice Brno Mod.Z - not ZG 47 - in 8x60S I think it is the same like a model 21. It has a single trigger and the safety of the ZG47. Now I installed a EAW-quick detachable mount and a Schmidt&Bender 1,25-4x20. With a handloads (55grs N550 and the 196grs Norma Oryx) it shoots great. I paid only 300 Euro for the rifle without scope.

I have one in 7X57 that I restocked (it came stockless to me) and took it to Africa and have hunted deer with it since that African trip. I have had none of the flaws that Savage 99 says are present. I would take ONE of the BRNO's for every TWO Kimbers you can find. Kimber's legacy was a poorly made rifle from Oregon, they have improved on it but not to any degree that it compares to the BRNO 21.

How does somebody tell the manufacture date on one of these. Maddog



/

Kutenay,
Old crappy mauser’s from Neckar, Brno, Belgium is absolutely nothing worth paying money for. Leave them alone, I am a thrifty bastard and think prices have gone up way to much, toys shall be easy to find and cheap

I found a Brno m-21 with regular ZG-47 style bolt handle and safety. Barrel is so pitted the moon looks smooth, stock got multiple cracks and the double trigger been bubbafied into single trigger. Perhaps, I finally will find use for the old Douglas premium grade in my vault... or?

Fla, 3006. Got any more pictures to show.

Cheers
/JOHAN

I saw a "Czech BRNO" at a gun show here in San Diego in January. This was a full Mannlicher stocked rifle in 8X60S with dies, ammo and brass. Also included mounts and a scope. It was marked "46" on teh barrel and teh action. Asking price was $1,750, but I don't think it sold.

I got the guys card if anyone is interested (he is in Incline Village, Nevada).

jim

quote:

JOHAN: I found a Brno m-21 with regular ZG-47 style bolt handle and safety. Barrel is so pitted the moon looks smooth, stock got multiple cracks and the double trigger been bubbafied into single trigger. Perhaps, I finally will find use for the old Douglas premium grade in my vault

Johan, you probably have what Forester above refers to as a Model Z, a 21/22-ZG47 hybrid. The single trigger is probably original, most likely a ZG47 trigger as that is what works with the ZG47 bolt. A friend of mine has one, the bolt is numbered to the receiver therefore came from the factory that way, not after some bubba mismatched the bolt. By the way, despite my previous comments, I have no problem with modifying a worn out or previously bubbafied collector item- which early Brnos are.

I have never had a problem with cartridges getting stuck in the left raceway.



This is the same rifle shown above with the Jaeger sidemount.

fla3006,
thanks for the information You got a PM

Hmm, interesting... the one I been looking at was made in 1951, it got the "square bridges" and matching serial numbers.

I'll agree with you! Brno's with worn out barrels or rotten stocks deserves to be carefully customised and brought back to life

Cheers
/JOHAN

I've got one and really like it. I got a great deal on it, but mine had been butchered before I bought it. My only real complaint is the front triiger seems too far forward and I can't get a firm grip on on the stock when I shoot. Other wise it's great rifle. Very accurate, light and seems very well built. I wish I had one in original condition.

Terry

I would never and have never stripped any old, classic rifle for it's action, but, the Brno 21H that I salvaged the action from was severely "bubbaed" and so I am fortunate enough to find this treasure for building into my idea of a really practical rifle for wilderness backpack hunting. Those on this thread who have actually been/hunted in northern B.C., the Yukon or the N.W.T. will understand what I am talking about and the nonsense about my experience by Savage simply demonstrates his lack of both credibility and knowledge.

A few years ago, I used to shoot with an old guy who spent his entire working life with the Canadian Gov't. surveying crews in northern B.C. and the Yukon. He was a crew boss, much as I was some years later for the Forest Service, and one of his duties was to feed the crews with fresh game meat. He would shoot DOZENS of Moose and Caribou plus Black Bears, Grizzlies, Wolves and a few Stone's and Dall's Sheep every year; this was perfectly legal for a person in his position and the meat was eaten.

His ONLY rifle was a Brno 21H in 7x57 with an old side mount carrying an ancient Weaver scope. He used Dominion 175 gr. "Kling Kore" softpoints and killed hundreds of animals with this combo, all over the north. He told me that he had bought this rifle in 1949, here in Vancouver, B.C. and preferred it to the various American rifles he had tried due to it's light weight, reliability and accuracy; when I knew him, 50 years later, it still shot very small groups and his photos depicted the effect of this wonderful, little rifle on actual Big Game.

Those who live in suburbia and have never seen northern Canada have absolutely no conception of what uninhabited, huge-scale wilderness areas are like, so, I have very little respect for their foolish remarks. but, if some such "expert" does not like the Brnos, they are easy to sell as many of the genuine experts onn this thread, who actually build superb custom rifles and hunt all over the World are eager to buy them....making everyone happy!

Now, lets have a thread where we are told how superior a Stevens 311 is to a Westley "Droplock", or, maybe how a H&R "Topper" is so much better than a A.M. Hagn single shot.......Oh.Yeah.Sure.

I was looking at two different H21s 7x57s...but they wanted too much $$$$ for them..based on what info. I had.

The first one appears to be an all original Carbine 20" barrel model...stock has cosmetic scraps nothing bad...bore is excellant and bluing very good...Sweet handling little rifle.

Second rifle 24" barrel...metal and stock all orginal...wood is excellant from pics I seen but it has a recoil pad on it and one trigger...they said it looks like it came from the factory with one trigger..who knows?

Anyway asking price was too much..but I was able to get the prices down a good bit....

Then I asked about trading a couple of rifles ...they said sure...well I had a plastic stocked Weatherby and a wood stocked Weatherby I no longer use either..actually been trying to get rid of them for a year... so I asked about trading those...even swap

I took them both...I have the carbine and the other is on the way..

JOHAN, the serial numbers are:

Carbine 29609
Rifle 23511

The Carbine is a niffty pointing little gun...the proportions are just right

I happy so far

Kutenay, please read the threads more carefully before you go off on people. We all agree early Brnos are fine rifles, regardless of where we live.

(sorry JJS, congratulations!)

So what if some old guy used a Brno in Canada? The rifle is still way out of the norm when looked at and I have just pointed out some of the failings.

Heck Aton Money used a M70 30-06 and he did fine. Again so what?

As mentioned in another post the double triggers make the length of pull from the pistol grip and butt uncomfortable. In this and the very low combs the subject Brno's are difficult to shoot well not to mention the spoon bolt handles that barely clear the highest scope.

As to finding one of these cute guns at a reasonable price it seems as if the net has dried up. Other means must be used and besides gun shows and crusing gun shops there may be other ways.

Perhaps an ad in a publication or the net would shake one loose?

Here is a pic of the 22f that I paid $830 for. Thats a lot of money for an old used gun. As you can see the screw holes are not in alignment nor the same size. This cost $175 and months at the smiths for a Weaver base to be modified that would use the exisiting holes with no further modification to the rifle. The bolt on this one had been cut and rewelded so it a lot lower and better for me but not a pure collector.

I hunted this rifle for about a day or so in VT but had to keep the chamber empty and feed a round after game is sighted. The bolt will only stay closed with the firing pin down.

I did see three does at once and loaded the rifle without them hearing me as far as I could tell but it's a buck only state. Its a very pretty gun but no M70.

On the positive side many rifles are too big in many dimensions and in particular the width at the magazine where one might carry it. Here the Brno 21/22's are very thin yet retain a 5 shot magazine.

The Kimber 84M Classics are similar in this respect.

Also feelings run high over these carbines. My gunsmith has seen mine and really prefers the round front ring on the older ones.

Another AR member met me at the range a couple of years ago and I had the recently aquired 21f and he latched onto it and said that he "was taking it". I did not know him that well and it was a little strange at first. This guy hunts from the Artic Circle to Africa so he has been around and only brought an older Sako rifle in 6.5-55 with a fixed Zeiss on it.

I am now indiferant over the Brno's but since I wanted a full stocked rifle that was really Euro I am much prefer th 22f to the MS's.

So far I can't much velocity out of either 20.5" carbine with loads that are up there.

fla3006:

Thanks....

I have never owned a Mauser action rifle before.. these are Mausers...right? I have purchased CZ 550s but not the real thing...until now.

Most of you guys have much more knowledge about Mausers and building guns than I ever will...I appreciate any constructive insight and information provided....past, present, and future

Because of my lack of knowledge I felt a bit apprehensive about having a Mauser built...possibly one day I will...so I had to find something that would work well "out of the box" so to speak...

I did as much searching for information as I could on available guns that fit my wants (Mauser, not a Model 70) and my needs/capabilities...my searches here on AR noted the Brno H21s as one of the best (small ring?)..and I did not have to have it built!!!

I am impressed with the H21s...action is very smooth, it is the best proportioned factory rifle I have handled by far..and exceeds most customs I have handled in that respect..It will take me time to get use to the rifle ie safety..but I like them..Now I want one in another caliber

Model 70s are great rifles...and when I have a DG rifle built, it may well be on a Model 70 type action.....I like them also

Seems like most hold the H21s in high regard....as well as the M70..they are different rifles in my opinion both good!

Now back to my new H21s...what do you think...good trade??? or not??

JJS, you bet they are Mausers, Czech derivatives anyway. You did good, commercial Brnos are among the very finest production sporting rifles, IMHO.

Savage, your continual demonstration of ignorance is amusing, but, since I have seen this before, I can't be bothered to engage you any further. "Ignorance is bliss", and in your case, that is certainly obvious.

Kutenay,

Have a nice day.

They are pretty little rifles, very carefully made and finished, but the flat high rise bolt handle is an abomination ....