Gents,

I decided to re-barrel my 30.06 and as corrosion played a significant part in it's downfall I am going to try and give the rifle the best possible chance this time around.

I am therefore thinking of a stainless barrel but the action is chrome/moly and I understand that even stainless steel can corrode under certain conditions.

I have asked my 'smith about the various options and the one I like the sound of is surface nitriding.

Apparently it increases barrel life, is scratch resistant and many time more rust-resistant than any other form of gun protection. It also works on stainless steel, important as yesterday a deer caught a flash off the stainless barrel on my Sako 308...

Has anyone else tried this? I am also interested in how fine the surface finish actually is, can it be mistaken for bluing at a distance?

'Deer caught a flash ' ? There's a difference between light color of stainless steel and reflecting. The finer the polish the more any barrel will reflect. Most stainless guns are now brushed or bead blasted to provide a non-reflective surface.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
'Deer caught a flash ' ? There's a difference between light color of stainless steel and reflecting. The finer the polish the more any barrel will reflect. Most stainless guns are now brushed or bead blasted to provide a non-reflective surface.

This one had a bead-blasted finish. The morning sun was very low and as I poked it through an opening in a bush I think it must have flashed them because the three looking in my direction, from about 300 yards away, jumped and ran in unison at the same time taking the rest of the herd with them.

Later on when my hunting partner and I left our rifles leant on a tree to drag a doe carcass it was incredible how much more visible my stainless barrel was than his blued one.

Blacking is a good thing for hunting rifles IMO.

G
if your going to use a stainless barrel, just buy a can of matt paint used for spraying motor bike exhaust pipes and spray your barrel with it....i my self have done the full circle, with barrels, used stainless for years, had no trouble,wore a few out but i think CM is the better steel for barrels....
To get the full benefit from your 06 make it a 24 inch tube a No 2 profile so its not to heavey, and load it up with R17/180 PROJ and you should be ready to fly

Although Melonite® is common on OEM handguns, nitriding temperature (and perhaps duration of soak at temperature???) is high. What happens to the heat treat of steels during an after-market nitride? I queried Smith & Wesson on this and obtained no useful reply.

I located an after-market source for having Melonite® precess. Because I could not confirm that heat treat would not be effected, I did not have it done.

If anyone has information on this that I can confirm on my own, please furnish it in this thread.

Naphtali,

I am not surprised that you didn't get much useful info on this. Processes such as this really have to be designed in when the parts are manufactured. i.e. they can do significant damage to the heat treatment of an already finished part as you have suspected.

A sacrificial part would need to be processed to really know the end result. The part would then be chopped up for analysis. Kind of an expensive proposition.

Jeremy

Qpq Google it...

QPQ..... I had it done .... its good.... I would do it again without hesitation.

Also known as Melonite..... AKA Salt bath nitriding

I have experimented with salt bath nitro carbonizing for a little over two years. I have used it or AR bolts and barrels. I used it on the last two series of Remington lightweight all weather rifles that I built.
I like it. It does what is supposed to do.
It does have it's quirks. One of the most notable is, the barrel has to be shot and cleaned about 30 times before accuracy will return.
For the job to be done correct you must find a facility that is firearm smart.
You cannot process a lot of stainless.
Later

James

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
'Deer caught a flash ' ? There's a difference between light color of stainless steel and reflecting. The finer the polish the more any barrel will reflect. Most stainless guns are now brushed or bead blasted to provide a non-reflective surface.

The 1st barrel on my sons .243 was a highly polished rust blue. Looked great but stood out like the dogs proverbials when it caught the sun. I just use that sticky camo tape on the S/S barrel of my .264WM. It has to be removed straight after the hunt but is good for a couple of days.

Whatever you do mate it will have to be non-reflective.

Ghubert,
Just stick with conventional finishes. The reaction of one or two silly deer is not really much to worry about. You could wind up spending as much for the finish as a new barrel and not get much performance in return. For me it is not worth it. I would spend it on another rifle, scope, components etc.

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
G
if your going to use a stainless barrel, just buy a can of matt paint used for spraying motor bike exhaust pipes and spray your barrel with it....i my self have done the full circle, with barrels, used stainless for years, had no trouble,wore a few out but i think CM is the better steel for barrels....
To get the full benefit from your 06 make it a 24 inch tube a No 2 profile so its not to heavey, and load it up with R17/180 PROJ and you should be ready to fly

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the advice mate, you have made me curious in regard to superiority of CM over SS, can you elaborate a little please mate?

I agree on the length and contour, a bit of length and weight is not disadvantage stalking and is very desirable for running game shooting. Something about great minds and all that eh?

Best,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by Naphtali:
Although Melonite® is common on OEM handguns, nitriding temperature (and perhaps duration of soak at temperature???) is high. What happens to the heat treat of steels during an after-market nitride? I queried Smith & Wesson on this and obtained no useful reply.

I located an after-market source for having Melonite® precess. Because I could not confirm that heat treat would not be effected, I did not have it done.

If anyone has information on this that I can confirm on my own, please furnish it in this thread.

I think the temperature is just below that of the stress relieving process used after the barrels are made in the first place. The barrels are certainly not heat treated in any other way that I'm aware of.

I shall of course post my results, but if it's good enough for Glock et al, I'm sure it would be fine.

I however also would welcome any comments from those who've already had it done in case I'm being given the salesman's bit.

quote:

Originally posted by jimatcat:
Qpq Google it...

quote:

Originally posted by J Bennett:
I have experimented with salt bath nitro carbonizing for a little over two years. I have used it or AR bolts and barrels. I used it on the last two series of Remington lightweight all weather rifles that I built.
I like it. It does what is supposed to do.
It does have it's quirks. One of the most notable is, the barrel has to be shot and cleaned about 30 times before accuracy will return.
For the job to be done correct you must find a facility that is firearm smart.
You cannot process a lot of stainless.
Later

James

Thanks guys, my only worry is how the polish the inside of the bore is polished between the quenchings. The rifle barrels I have seen finished thus far have had quite a rough finish, almost like parkerising, I'm not sure a very hard, rough surface is the best idea for the bore, no matter how rust resistant.

Perhaps the 30 shots followed by cleaning is the polishing process?

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
'Deer caught a flash ' ? There's a difference between light color of stainless steel and reflecting. The finer the polish the more any barrel will reflect. Most stainless guns are now brushed or bead blasted to provide a non-reflective surface.

The 1st barrel on my sons .243 was a highly polished rust blue. Looked great but stood out like the dogs proverbials when it caught the sun. I just use that sticky camo tape on the S/S barrel of my .264WM. It has to be removed straight after the hunt but is good for a couple of days.

Whatever you do mate it will have to be non-reflective.

It will be sir, even if it's just the BBQ paint.

I hate cammo tape with a passion as in the UK it's usually seen wrapped around safe-queen target specials, the so called "tactical rifles" that never see anything more alert than a jobsworth range officer.

I'm using a bit of scrim tied around the barrel after Saturday...

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Ghubert,
Just stick with conventional finishes. The reaction of one or two silly deer is not really much to worry about. You could wind up spending as much for the finish as a new barrel and not get much performance in return. For me it is not worth it. I would spend it on another rifle, scope, components etc.

It's not just one or two silly deer, avoiding reflective and conspicuous material on one's person or rifle is fundamental to being able to successfully stalk spooky animals. the deer I shoot are hunted every week and are well truly wise to game by now. It's a point I insist on in any event.

Money, to a reasonable extent, is not an issue.

My 30.06 has dropped over 200 beasts over three continents in the four years I've had it, she's a bit special to me despite her broken stock, scratched action and lack of badge kudos.

To give you an idea of how much this rifle, my first incidentally, means to me the stock was broken, almost in half, and I had it repaired by a London gunsmith that did not want to admit to doing the work, but did such a good job that it's still perfect and invisible after almost three more years of use and so I say hang the cost. I am in fact going to have it restocked if I pick up a decent bit of wood at the IWA in a few weeks.

With our firearms laws the way they are I'd rather have a bespoke .22RF, 30.06, .375 and stopping rifle and worry about toys later.

The 30.06 sees the most use so she's the first to be done.

This is where most of the competition shooters send theirs.

Send to :
MMI-Trutec, Inc.
2609 N. 12th Avenue
Paragould, Ar. 72450
ph 870-236-6920
Attn: Rodney Lanier

Dear Sir,

I am the plant Manager of MMI. Well as Joel has said do not accept individual accounts. However a long time in house employee has assumed this business. He will use our bath with a surcharge. There is not any need in sending these parts to an outside source and then us. You can send them directly to Rodney Lanier rlanier77@hotmail.com. They will come directly to MMI Arkansas facility attention Rodney. His charge is $60 per barrel and $75 for handguns and $55 shot gun barrel. check made out in his name included in the package plus $20 shipping or an ups account #. You can contact him at 870-236-6920

Thanks,

Mike Wooldridge
Plant Manag
MMI-Trutec
Paragould, Arkansas

Thanks Butch, unfortunately I will probably not be able to avail myself of that gentleman's services due to my geography.

There is a firm local to my gunsmith's that does various surface treatments for the aerospace and motor racing sectors who will undertake the work.

I like that rifle, it looks like a dedicated F-class rig?

Why do competition shooters tend to specify this process in your experience?

Only because of greatly increased barrel life. Does not seem to have any effect on accuracy either good or bad.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Only because of greatly increased barrel life. Does not seem to have any effect on accuracy either good or bad.

Thanks for that mate.

So the process doesn't "rough-up" the bore to any great extent?

If it only keeps the thing weather proof and has no other positive effects I'm happy.

I'm trying to find a paper from a military armorer giving his extensive testing. I will post it when I find where I saved it.It does help greatly in corrosion resistance.

See if this works.



I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.

As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).

As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.

Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.

Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.

I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.

One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.

I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.

Best of luck!

Superb stuff Butch, thanks a million mate.

I'm wondering whether I need to go the SS route if it's that good.

Have you considered Durakote/Cerakote finishes? A few of the blokes in the tropics here have had Cerakote finishes done, and it's very durable, corrosion preventing, and non-reflective.

At least one mob in the UK offer Cerakote for firearms: http://www.jagerservices.co.uk/

One more question please Gentlemen, would the temperatures involved affect the heat treatment of the barrel or action were I to have the whole barrelled action done?

The nitride bath is at 525 degrees centigrade.

Melonite QPQ is around 800F. 525C is close to 1000F and too hot for barrels and probably receivers.

I was fairly certain the temperature was as high at 525C?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...tic_nitrocarburizing

http://www.durferrit.de/media/pdf/Tenifer_QPQ_eng.pdf

The process inventors give the usual temp at 580C?

If that is too high then I might have to go back to the drawing-board from what you say?

Ghubert, check your PMs.

Pm replied to, thank you Butch.

I've had one entire firearm treated Ghubert. It is a 300Weatherby built on a Sako L61R action with a Shilen CM barrel. Works fine lasts long time.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Ghubert,
Just stick with conventional finishes. The reaction of one or two silly deer is not really much to worry about. You could wind up spending as much for the finish as a new barrel and not get much performance in return. For me it is not worth it. I would spend it on another rifle, scope, components etc.

It's not just one or two silly deer, avoiding reflective and conspicuous material on one's person or rifle is fundamental to being able to successfully stalk spooky animals. the deer I shoot are hunted every week and are well truly wise to game by now. It's a point I insist on in any event.

Money, to a reasonable extent, is not an issue.

My 30.06 has dropped over 200 beasts over three continents in the four years I've had it, she's a bit special to me despite her broken stock, scratched action and lack of badge kudos.

To give you an idea of how much this rifle, my first incidentally, means to me the stock was broken, almost in half, and I had it repaired by a London gunsmith that did not want to admit to doing the work, but did such a good job that it's still perfect and invisible after almost three more years of use and so I say hang the cost. I am in fact going to have it restocked if I pick up a decent bit of wood at the IWA in a few weeks.

With our firearms laws the way they are I'd rather have a bespoke .22RF, 30.06, .375 and stopping rifle and worry about toys later.

The 30.06 sees the most use so she's the first to be done.

Goobie,
In the greater scheme of things a few deer mean nothing. The time you spend with hunting friends is much more important thanyour kill count. It seems your current barrel is crapped out because you thought/knew so little about maintaining it. Your stock is broken and will soon be fire wood. Sooner or later all you will have left of the original rifle is the hole in the barrel. Yeah it is a sentimental favorite, but there are thousands of other rifles that could be your favorite. Bespoke, no big deal. Drop the snob shit and try learning a few things besides the tiring limey baloney.

Amir
I would personally go for a good CM barrel and just look after it with good care. NZ is prettery rough on hunting rifles with the thick bush, dust, mud, wet weather etc. As long as I wipe out the rifles properly and clean and store with Break Free or Eezox, there is absolutely no proble. In 1996 or so we had our Mt Ruapehu errupting ash in out central plateau. Hunting there was a real pain as the ash would burn ones eyes and nose and all the bush was covered in this fine ash and the rifles would start rusting / corroding the next morning. My friends & I panicked. But a good clean up with break free solved the problem.

I do hunt with a SS Kimber Montana in 7mm08 but I still prefer CM rifles.

Good luck with your project.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I've had one entire firearm treated Ghubert. It is a 300Weatherby built on a Sako L61R action with a Shilen CM barrel. Works fine lasts long time.

Thanks Harry,

Nice rifle and cartridge for the sort of rifle I have planned too.

Do you zero from a cold clean bore?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Ghubert,
Just stick with conventional finishes. The reaction of one or two silly deer is not really much to worry about. You could wind up spending as much for the finish as a new barrel and not get much performance in return. For me it is not worth it. I would spend it on another rifle, scope, components etc.

It's not just one or two silly deer, avoiding reflective and conspicuous material on one's person or rifle is fundamental to being able to successfully stalk spooky animals. the deer I shoot are hunted every week and are well truly wise to game by now. It's a point I insist on in any event.

Money, to a reasonable extent, is not an issue.

My 30.06 has dropped over 200 beasts over three continents in the four years I've had it, she's a bit special to me despite her broken stock, scratched action and lack of badge kudos.

To give you an idea of how much this rifle, my first incidentally, means to me the stock was broken, almost in half, and I had it repaired by a London gunsmith that did not want to admit to doing the work, but did such a good job that it's still perfect and invisible after almost three more years of use and so I say hang the cost. I am in fact going to have it restocked if I pick up a decent bit of wood at the IWA in a few weeks.

With our firearms laws the way they are I'd rather have a bespoke .22RF, 30.06, .375 and stopping rifle and worry about toys later.

The 30.06 sees the most use so she's the first to be done.

Goobie,
In the greater scheme of things a few deer mean nothing. The time you spend with hunting friends is much more important thanyour kill count. It seems your current barrel is crapped out because you thought/knew so little about maintaining it. Your stock is broken and will soon be fire wood. Sooner or later all you will have left of the original rifle is the hole in the barrel. Yeah it is a sentimental favorite, but there are thousands of other rifles that could be your favorite. Bespoke, no big deal. Drop the snob shit and try learning a few things besides the tiring limey baloney.

Decaff man, decaff...

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Amir
I would personally go for a good CM barrel and just look after it with good care. NZ is prettery rough on hunting rifles with the thick bush, dust, mud, wet weather etc. As long as I wipe out the rifles properly and clean and store with Break Free or Eezox, there is absolutely no proble. In 1996 or so we had our Mt Ruapehu errupting ash in out central plateau. Hunting there was a real pain as the ash would burn ones eyes and nose and all the bush was covered in this fine ash and the rifles would start rusting / corroding the next morning. My friends & I panicked. But a good clean up with break free solved the problem.

I do hunt with a SS Kimber Montana in 7mm08 but I still prefer CM rifles.

Good luck with your project.

Hi Ashok,

Thanks for your post, yours is the second to hint darkly at the superiority of CM over SS for barrels.

Why is that CM makes better barrel steel than SS?

I want to be able to put my rifles away absolutely clean and zero to either the first shot or have the first shot group in the same place as the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I've had one entire firearm treated Ghubert. It is a 300Weatherby built on a Sako L61R action with a Shilen CM barrel. Works fine lasts long time.

Thanks Harry,


Do you zero from a cold clean bore?

This particular rifle shoots to the same point of impact whether clean, cold, fouled or hot in any combination thereof. I didn't shoot it enough before the treatment to say if QPQ has any bearing on that. It certainly is a hot enough process to provide some stress relief. It is a #5 contour which is about the heaviest I like to use.

Here is what to expect in appearance:





The #5 is a pretty heavy contour when finished off at 22-24 inches. This one is 28 and the extra 4 inches carry the taper to a nicer proportion. Reminds me of the Marlin Goose Gun, however.

I dislike the look of stainless on a Rifle.I have mine powder coated matte black.Stuff is really tough.