I'll cover shipping, of course.

Hate to buy one just to check a single rifle.

The rentals I found are Go / No Go only; no field.

Yes of course I do; PM me your address.

In this case I use shim stock on a NOGO.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes of course I do; PM me your address.

thank you!

Sure you can add .004 to a no go gauge, but the OP does not have one of those either.

quote:

The rentals I found are Go / No Go only; no field.

In the beginning I did not believe a reloader could not measure the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. And then there is clearance. And now? There must be something about the case the case and chamber they do not understand.

F. Guffey

There is something you do not understand; no two brass cases are the same and even if they were, brass is ductile; no way you can get a valid reading. That is why gauges are made from steel, to a set of dimensions.
Using brass, will not tell the OP what he wants to know.
He now has his definitive, no guessing and no mistake, answer.

quote:

Hate to buy one just to check a single rifle.

dpcd said there is something I do not understand.

I can measure the length of a chamber with a field reject length gage, I can measure the length of a chamber with a no go-gage length gage. I can measure the length of a chamber with a go-gage length gage. I can measure the length of a chamber with a minimum length/full length sized case.

I can make all of those measurements without a headspace gage. I can make a a headspace gage made from steel, I had rather use forming dies.

I have tools, lots of tools and I have gages. I took a picture of my gages years ago, the picture weighed 600 pounds,

If there was something I do not understand that something would have to do with the limited ability of the reloader, I suggest they start by removing their hands from their pockets.

F. Guffey

I meant you can't reliably gauge chambers using pieces of brass. (Because Mr G mentioned "case". Which to me, means, brass case. Also, by using steel gauges you are not actually measuring anything; you are merely proving that the chamber is either shorter, or longer, than the gauge. And even that can be suspect; I can make any 1917 Enfield swallow any no go gauge. Cam cut bolt lug recesses.
If I mis typed anything, I do regret that. My only intent is to make people think. Noting more or less.
Anyway, the OP has no problem, as it turns out.

quote:

Anyway, the OP has no problem, as it turns out.

I do not agree, he still has to have 3 head space gags to measure the 8mm57 chamber. In an effort to help a man measure the length of a 30/06 chamber in a rifle he was building I offered to modify a go-gage to a go-to infinity gage, meaning one gage to fit all 30/06 chambers. He had 20+ headspace gages and could not measure the length of his new chamber.

F. Guffey

I'm obviously hard of understanding, because my comprehension level of F. guffey's posts has been zero, and dpcd's interpretation of it hasn't made it any more clear.

A reloader can do all sorts of work arounds to insure the ammo fits the rifle he's reloading for. That is clear to most reloaders past the basic level.

What I have a hard time understanding is what is being advocated instead of using standard gauges, and why is that relevant to the OP's need or want to borrow a gauge to check something on his particular rifle?

Can anybody explain this in short enough words/sentences I can understand?

Here is what I know; I only deal in facts.
OP wanted to borrow a Field Gauge for 7.92MM.
I loaned him one.
He used it.
His rifle did not accept it.
His rifle does accept his ammo.
He does not need three gauges.
Any other comments are just red herrings thrown in to confuse, complicate,
and obfuscate the, NON problem. The concept of using brass, 20 gauges, and other things, are not germane. As I said, fixed gauges are not used to quantify (measure) anything; they are only used to determine limits.
I was (futilely) trying to clarify things.
Best to move on, at this point. I do actually have things to do, like cut chips, but unfortunately am addicted to this. I know, many want me to go.....they send me PMs all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:
I'm obviously hard of understanding, because my comprehension level of F. guffey's posts has been zero, and dpcd's interpretation of it hasn't made it any more clear.

A reloader can do all sorts of work arounds to insure the ammo fits the rifle he's reloading for. That is clear to most reloaders past the basic level.

What I have a hard time understanding is what is being advocated instead of using standard gauges, and why is that relevant to the OP's need or want to borrow a gauge to check something on his particular rifle?

Can anybody explain this in short enough words/sentences I can understand?

Guffey is nothing but a troll.....he's already been laughed off of several forums for his senseless posts....


Tom! Don't you go anywhere! We already lost Rod...... There would be no humor left in the forum, not to mention the wealth of knowledge lost.

Tom, Not being critical of you in any way, don't take it at that!

F. Guffy just seemed to be a case of posting under the influence, or a case of using google translate to change chinese into navajo and then into english.

Rifle checked out fine! Thanks!

Years ago, I built an 8 x 57 for a cl/ient who actually had his own gages, made in Germany.

Turns out, those gages were just a bit longer than the made in USA version

My theory is that the translation from metric to inches may have a slight built in error...plausible?

Sorta like the man who has one watch..always knows what time it is, but the man with two watches is never quite certain

I cannot believe there are so many reloaders that cannot measure the length of a chamber with a gage that is too long. And then there is the reloader that can chamber a round, gage, or case but unable to measure the clearance.

And then there are all of the reloaders that claim they have mastered the press but cannot adjust the press to produce a case with a predictable length from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case.

F. Guffey

Mr. Guffey, nowhere in this thread has anybody said that the owner of the rifle is struggling to re-load ammo for it.

Perhaps he just wants to know whether or not it's within spec, or perhaps he wants to check whether the rifle would be safe to use extensively with milsurp ammo?

Whatever, it's his rifle and his prerogative to measure or gauge it any way he likes. lots of jumping to conclusions going on here.

quote:

Mr. Guffey, nowhere in this thread has anybody said that the owner of the rifle is struggling to re-load ammo for it.

Thank you, and please forgive. I use one gage to measure all 8mm57 chambers. I measure the length of the chambers in thousandths from the datum to the bolt face. There is nothing new about being different, many years ago there was a group of smiths that blamed another smith for everything that went wrong; the good part? He was not sensitive, it did not take him long to look at it and it took them all day to do it.
All I had to do was figure out what he was doing differently.

And then I decided I could check the length of a 30/06 long chambers with a Remington 280 case. I could purchase all of those gages but instead I purchased forming dies;

and then there are all of the biases and predigests.
Roy Dunlap made it very clear there was nothing wrong with making gages, he understood he had a choice and he had friends that made different choices.

F. Guffey

quote:

I'm obviously hard of understanding, because my comprehension level of F. guffey's posts has been zero, and dpcd's interpretation of it hasn't made it any more clear.

A reloader can do all sorts of work arounds to insure the ammo fits the rifle he's reloading for. That is clear to most reloaders past the basic level.

What I have a hard time understanding is what is being advocated instead of using standard gauges, and why is that relevant to the OP's need or want to borrow a gauge to check something on his particular rifle?

Can anybody explain this in short enough words/sentences I can understand?

I do not know 'what it is' you do not understand. If you had a go-gage, could you measure the length of the gage from the datum on the shoulder to the base of the gage? And then there is the datum, can you make a datum? If you can make a datum why do you need a gage?

Datums do not have bevels, for years Hornady sold a tool that reloaders/smiths called a head space gage; the tool had a bevel, the bevel complicated things for smiths and reloaders because the readings did not match case measurements. SO? If the datum has a bevel the tool is called a comparator.

There is a tool that has a bevel, I believe I am safe because I do not believe there is anyone that knows where "it is" or how to find it.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by F. Guffey:
I do not know 'what it is' you do not understand. If you had a go-gage, could you measure the length of the gage from the datum on the shoulder to the base of the gage? And then there is the datum, can you make a datum? If you can make a datum why do you need a gage?

Datums do not have bevels, for years Hornady sold a tool that reloaders/smiths called a head space gage; the tool had a bevel, the bevel complicated things for smiths and reloaders because the readings did not match case measurements. SO? If the datum has a bevel the tool is called a comparator.

There is a tool that has a bevel, I believe I am safe because I do not believe there is anyone that knows where "it is" or how to find it.

F. Guffey

perdón por favor; No entiendo tu inglés

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:

quote:

Originally posted by F. Guffey:
I do not know 'what it is' you do not understand. If you had a go-gage, could you measure the length of the gage from the datum on the shoulder to the base of the gage? And then there is the datum, can you make a datum? If you can make a datum why do you need a gage?

Datums do not have bevels, for years Hornady sold a tool that reloaders/smiths called a head space gage; the tool had a bevel, the bevel complicated things for smiths and reloaders because the readings did not match case measurements. SO? If the datum has a bevel the tool is called a comparator.

There is a tool that has a bevel, I believe I am safe because I do not believe there is anyone that knows where "it is" or how to find it.

F. Guffey

perdón por favor; No entiendo tu inglés

no hay problema nadie lo hace

quote:

If the datum has a bevel the tool is called a comparator.

I have mics that are identified as comparators, they are expensive. When using the comparator I adjust the setting and then like magic the micrometer measures the actual length on two different indicators.

Something like; this is what it should measure and this is what you got.

My favorite tool is the L.E. Wilson case gage, it has been around since 1938-39, reloaders rather than learn to use it/understand it they took the short route and labeled it 'a drop in gage. I thought Wilson was brilliant.

Wilson included instruction with ever gage in the box. I have never found a reloader that had a set of instructions.

F. Guffey

I am still hard of understanding; I cannot put F. Guffey's last post into anything comprehensible in my mind, and I really tried.

I can write something similar however, and get just as much out of it:

I have a scale that self identifies as a micrometer, so I let it use the mic drawer instead of the square one. It was inexpensive. When using the micrometer I adjust the setting and then like magic the scale measures the actual diameter in two different radius's.

Something like; you should have a ferarri and you got a colonoscopy instead.

My favorite tool is the folding wooden rule invented by Anton Ullrich, it has been around since 1851, carpenters rather than learn to use it/understand it they took the short route and use a tape measure. I thought Ullrich was brilliant.

Anton included a piece of beeswax with every ruler in the barrel. I have never found a carpenter that had the beeswax.



I'm still having a hard time understanding why anybody wouldn't just use headspaces gauges to standardize their chambering jobs, or checking a suspect rifle.

Your post is a lot funnier. I wouldn't worry too much about it; no one else understood his either.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Your post is a lot funnier. I wouldn't worry too much about it; no one else understood his either.

The thing that bugs me is that behind some apparent idiots is someone that knows something brilliant and has a short circuit in their brain that makes them fail to communicate it.

For instance his reference to using a wilson gauge as something other than a drop in gauge. I'm in the drop in gauge camp. It measures 3 things (or maybe 4, depending on how you think).

1) Drop case in the top, flip it over, and set on a granite plate. If the case sticks out the top, OAL is too long, and case needs trimmed.
2) Drop a fire formed case in the top, hold it and use a straight edge on the higher side of the gauge to rake across the case head. If the head is above that surface, you have excessive headspace in the cartridge (and presumably the rifle you fired it in). Case needs resized to use.
3) Drop a fire formed case in the top, hold it and use a straight edge on the lower side of the gauge to rake across the case head. If the head is below that surface, you have insufficient headspace in the cartridge (and presumably the rifle you fired it in).

4) Drop a fire formed case in the top. If it won't go in, the case is expanded beyond what will chamber, and needs resized.

If I had case 2, above, excessive headspace exhibited by the case, I'd take a set of headspace gauges and test the rifle.

Some guys use a one sided depth mic with the gauge surface to actually measure what the apparent headspace discrepancy is. Someone who wanted to work hard to do something easy could short chamber a barrel, install it, fire a cartridge in it, and use the short headspace guage and a mic to figure out how to finish chambering. Much harder and less precise than using a go gauge and a depth mic without installing the barrel.

Is there any magic function of a Wilson gauge that I'm missing? I don't have the instructions but then again I don't have the gauge either. I've owned several over the years, never really found a use for them, so just passed them on. Maybe I've been missing out over the years, due to my ignorance in not knowing the magic function?

quote:

If I had case 2, above, excessive headspace exhibited by the case, I'd take a set of headspace gauges and test the rifle.

The case does not have headspace. Rhere was a time reloaders and smiths tried to make everything a head space gage. No one remembers the Larry Willis digital head space gage. No one recognized his invention as a dial indicator stand.

Wilson case gages and the new term reloaders insisted on naming it as the drop in gage without reading the instructions. Reloaders used their finger nails; the instructions suggested using a straight edge. Wilson went so far as to suggest using the pocket rule, I added the feeler gage, I also used a flat steel set-up plate.

And then I wondered how Wilson could could build something so accurate and other reloaders wanted to call everything a head space gage and their limited understanding of the tool.

Again, I believe L.E. Wilson did a brilliant job when they designed the case gage. A member wanted to borrow a gage to measure the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. Not my fault but no one had a suggestion short of mailing him a gage..

The chamber length is measured in thousands, Wilson understood the case can be short or long, he designed the gage to measure the length from the datum to the case of the gage, if a reloader used a straight edge and a feeler gage they could determine the length of the case from the datum to the case head. In the perfect world a no gap woiuld indicate go-gage length. a .004" gap would indicate a full length sized case.

I have a M1917 that allows the case head to protrude from the gage .016". not a problem, I form 280 Remington cases with a .014" gap between the case head and top of the shell holder; amd no I can not accomplish that with a cam over press. To use the cam over press I have to adjust the press differently.

quote:

If I had case 2, above, excessive headspace exhibited by the case, I'd take a set of headspace gauges and test the rifle.

Again, I trust the Wilson case gage, I suggest you do not need the head space gage and SAAMI says the case does not have head space, they did not suggest that the concept is impossible for reloaders to understand.

Forming dies: I have forming dies, I have paid for all of them with the money I have saved.

Thank you for the few kind words,

I will say if anyone was good at searching they could find my post of a long time ago almost marrow some of the good stuff in your response.

F. Guffey

quote:

Hide Post
Your post is a lot funnier. I wouldn't worry too much about it; no one else understood his either.

If all you can do is mail a gage, mail it.

Reloaders should not be helpless, I believe in helping. I have confidence in other members, then there are the snarky ones.

F. Guffey

This situation was all solved back in January. Just for the record. Not sure what is happening now.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
This situation was all solved back in January. Just for the record. Not sure what is happening now.

Agree, the problem was solved correctly. I just brought it back up hoping to find something worth learning in the riddles. Unfortunately, not there.

If I understand even a glimmer of what F. Guffey said in his last two posts, it appears that he's saying "don't worry about headspacing your rifle correctly to a standard, just fireform a case and reload to that".

Not the gem of brilliance I was trying to find in the riddles, just basic reloading knowledge. One step above "screw in the die till it hits the shell holder, and then back it off just a hair".

quote:

posted 04 March 2023 23:30 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
This situation was all solved back in January. Just for the record. Not sure what is happening now.


Agree, the problem was solved correctly. I just brought it back up hoping to find something worth learning in the riddles. Unfortunately, not there.

The problem had to do with the answers/responses. Again Austin Hunter believes there are three different length chambers as in go, no-go and field reject length. I accept you do not understand, that is OK, that does not bother me. If I suggested a reloader purchase a head space gage it would be a field reject length gage.

I understood your effort to jump out in the fast lane, careful, there is always a chance you will miss second gear.

You have a problem with reading comprehension, I did not say anything about "don't worry about head spacing your rifle correctly to a standard, just fire form a case and reload to that".

Again I form first and then fire meaning I measure the length of the chamber first, not a problem for me, I can measure the length of the chamber three different ways without a head space gage. And if a case is too long from the case head to the shoulder to allow the bolt to close the reloader should be able to determine why, with a few micrometers without removing the case.

I understand you have not missed anything. I do not agree as I have said L.E. Wilson will never get the credit he deserves.

DPCD,
posted 04 March 2023 23:18 Hide Post
This situation was all solved back in January. Just for the record. Not sure what is happening now.

You sent a gage to Mr. Green with no instructions and now he knows the bolt on his rifle will not close on a field reject length gage. And now he knows all you want him to know and that is about nothing. You missed a big opportunity to help him. There is a chance you can not help someone with measuring the length of a chamber.

A reloader, collector etc. etc. built a circa 1911 1903 Rock Island, after he finished he wanted to measure the length of the chamber, he owns 20+ head space gages, all he knew about the chamber was the bolt would close on the go-gage and would not close on a no go-gage. He could not find anyone that could measure the length of the chamber in thousandths.
He said he had a mill to sell so I drove over to see it, I purchased the mill.

It was about that time he asked me what I knew about head space. I told him it would take me about 15 minutes to gather enough tools to measure the length of the chamber on ever rifle he had in his shop. And then he told me about all of his head space gages. I suggested he learn how to read them.

I removed a tool from his machinist tool box and in less than 5 minutes I told him his chamber was .0025" longer than a a go-gage length chamber.

And then he wanted a bolt that would off set the length of the chamber. The man had no fewer than 100 bolts, I had 30 new/old bolts; I told him I could test/check ever bolt for its ability to off set the length of a chamber either way, longer or shorter and I promised him I did not have a bolt that would change the length of the chamber and I promised him he did not have a bolt that would lengthen and or shorten the chamber.

Problem, the Rock Island uses a bolt with a straight handle. We did not have a bolt with a straight handle. They put a few 03A4s together, they managed to get the handle angle correct and they used DP receivers. They did not try to deceive anyone

At the time he was on the old CSP forum, I knew he would not get any help there.

I was of the opinion they did not like anyone very much. Some people like that snark snuff.

F. Guffey