The Accurate Reloading Forums
Cock on opening or closing?
18 April 2004, 04:08
LE270Cock on opening or closing?
Most bolt action rifles -- '98 Mausers and '98 Mauser copies, Winchester 70, Remington 700, Ruger 77, Weatherby, Howa, Savage, and many others -- cock on opening. But a few cock on closing. I've never shot or dealt with one that cocks on closing -- Is the Enfield one of those? If so, when the Enfield is re-worked as the basis for a sporter rifle, is it converted to cock on opening?
For those of you who've used and shot both kinds of bolt action rifles -- cock on opening and cock on closing -- do you find that it makes any difference, and do you have a preference?
18 April 2004, 04:14
BurkeEnfields cock on closing.I've never heard of a conversion for one.
18 April 2004, 04:23
Jim KobeReally? There are a million of them out there.
Jim
18 April 2004, 05:02
BurkeNope.Seen tons for mausers, never one for an enfield.I'd like to see one though.
18 April 2004, 05:17
ScrollcutterCock on opening conversions to Enfields are pretty much SOP for gunsmithing one into a sporter.
18 April 2004, 05:25
<allen day>"SOP" is right!
AD
18 April 2004, 05:42
hivelosity270 my favorite caliber.
I like the cock on open. nice and smooth.
The 98's i have all cock on open
not close.
to change to cock on open Brownells sells all the kits.
They have them for the e5 and e6's also i picked one up for a rem mod 30 some time back.
the bolts have to be changed to a side swing safety and the trigger has to be replaced. i used a timney it work good
also you need to change the speed lock.
Dave
18 April 2004, 05:57
LongbobQuote:
Nope.Seen tons for mausers, never one for an enfield.I'd like to see one though.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5690&title=COCK-ON-OPEN+KIT
18 April 2004, 06:15
<JOHAN>LE270
Teh only cok on closing is the Swedish mauser 96 and m-38 and m-41
Brownells sold conversion kit for them not too long ago
Cheers
/ JOHAN
18 April 2004, 06:32
bartscheQuote:
"Nope.Seen tons for mausers, never one for an enfield.I'd like to see one though."
They do exist.roger
18 April 2004, 06:59
Burkeare they just for the pattern 14 and 17's? I'm confused,because when I read "Enfield", I'm thinking of a SMLE or a No4, rather than the p14 or p17.
18 April 2004, 07:16
hivelositythey make conversions for all enfields also the 93 96 and m38 you do not have to change the safty.
18 April 2004, 07:23
Bullet_ProofI think Burke is talking about lee-enfields guys.
I've never seen a cock on opening for them either.
Brett
18 April 2004, 07:37
bartscheQuote:
LE270
"Teh only cok on closing is th eSwedish mauser 96 and m-38 and m-41"
You are uaually right . There are more mausers that cock on closing however.Too much Aquavit last night? 
roger
18 April 2004, 08:10
tiggertateI read it as Lee-Enfields too and I have never seen that conversion but I would like to be wrong about it.
18 April 2004, 09:17
Alberta CanuckWhich Mauser 98's do you have that cock on closing? The cock-on-closing Mausers I am familiar with are the M94 & M96, but every M98 Mauser I have ever seen had a cock-on-opening action IIRC.
Which is handier depends on which you grew up with. There's little doubt a cock on closing action can be just as fast as a cock-on-opening model, if you are used to using it. There may also be some slight extraction advantage, so far as hand effort comes into play.
AC
18 April 2004, 11:39
Dago RedAlthough my enfields have been converted I hear that the cock on closing can be faster and easier as you are applying the force in your forward and downward stroke, better leverage. But this is only what i have heard since mine have the kits installed.
Re
18 April 2004, 17:26
LE270Quote:
I read it as Lee-Enfields too...
In my original question, I was thinking of 1917 Enfields, such as the one used by D'Arcy Echols and Tom Burgess as the basis of the exquisitely beautiful sporter shown here in an earlier thread. I was not thinking of conversions based on the Lee-Enfield action.
18 April 2004, 18:11
Bill LeeperIn a proper "cock on opening" coversion for the P14/17 the bolt body is welded up and the cocking cam recut. My P14 has 5/16" of striker travel and works well. I have also done conversions on Lee Enfields but you have to want it pretty bad! Regards, Bill.
There is one safety issue that tried to add some scars to my face concerning a cock on closing Mauser. Since you have to dry fire to release the firing spring pressure (as too many people like to do, unnecesarily I believe) eventually in my rifles case the firing pin hammered its way out to protrude beyond the bolt face slightly when the bolt was open. Add to that the spring back when the bolt is opened unfired and a live round in the chamber, and I had a 'malfunction' in my face with a .308 round.
Gotta watch those old Mausers for stuff like that.
Cock on open controls/secures the firing pin better.....IMHO.
19 April 2004, 10:30
browningguyI've got one cock on closing, an 1891 Mauser. To be honest I find it more dificult, probably because I don't practice with it enough. I think with more practice I would get used to it.
19 April 2004, 11:14
TailgunnerWhy dry fire at all? Hold the trigger back as you close the bolt, and the pin will lower as the bolt is closed (either style).
19 April 2004, 14:09
Cal SibleyI have three of the old Swedish M96 mausers, all of which cock on closing. I have no problem with it. You get used to it in a hurry. Best wishes.
Cal - Montreal
Tailgunner,
I just tried that on my m46 Husky and I doesn't work like the 98's.
19 April 2004, 17:36
Calif HunterMy first centerfire was a 1917 Enfield 30 years ago, so I was used to the cock on closing. It still seems easier to me, and I don't shoot that rifle at all anymore.
Because it doesn't work like that on the old cock on close Mausers. Hold the trigger down on this small ring Mauser and the bolt will not close at all.
Personally, I don't bother taking the tension off of a firing pin spring, but many do, and since the rifle in question had about 100 years of other people using it before it came into my hands, the damage was done long ago.
20 April 2004, 10:03
TailgunnerVFR & CDH
Interesting, The cocking piece is laying aganst the end of the bolt until it contacts the trigger's sear lump (pardon me if I get the terms incorrect) as the bolt is run forward, than is held by the sear until the trigger is pulled (normal firing operation). So pulling the trigger/lowering the sear, as the cocking piece goes by the sear, won't allow you to close the bolt on your Mausers?
20 April 2004, 11:09
oaklaneLE270:
To answer your original question, there IS a conversion for the Pattern 14 and Model 1917 Enfields. Sarco and Gunparts used to carry them. They were about $15 plus shipping. It included a new cocking piece, firing pin, and shroud. Screw the old assy. out and screw the new one in.... about 2 min. worth of work. Of the two that I have installed, both worked flawlessly and had really nice smooth trigger pulls. The travel was loooong tho. They worked so well I did not install a Timney. As far as I know, I have never seen or read about a cock on opening conversion for the Lee Enfields,i.e. The No.1 and the No.4 & 5.
As far as preference, you get used to what your shooting. Did not find a whole lot of difference, bit that's just me!
IIRC, the bolt would not close completely with the trigger pulled. I have long since parted company with the rifle (never could get over the flash/bang in my face from the misfire) so I can't check it out. Given the sorry state I received the rifle in, it is possible that it was defective in other ways too, I just never worked with that little issue. Several gunsmiths I took it to in the year I tried to get it working well just nodded like it is a common feature when I mentioned it.
Gunner,
My Husky is in perfect working order, and the bolt will not close while the trigger is pulled.
20 April 2004, 17:33
C1PNRHad to go check mine.
Open bolt all the way to the rear, depress follower, push bolt forward until resistance, pull trigger, push bolt forward, release trigger, push bolt down.
Pulled trigger just to check, but it was not cocked.
22 April 2004, 04:25
LittleloadingblockI have guns that are both cock on open and cock on close, and I hunt with them all. It is a matter of practice. Spend enough time with the weapons and things will go well. I have a m-38, m-96, m-93 m-95, and a husky 9.3x57 built on a m-94 action. All cock on close. I also have a few M-44's, A few 98's, and a Remington 700. All cock on open. I have no problem switching back and forth it has never been an issue with me. As far as converting one of my COC rifles over to COO I have never seen the need to spend the money on something that is not broke. The more you use the rifle the easier it is to switch back and forth from rifle to rifle. It's all the same motion. LLB
I can't tell a lot of difference when cranking the bolt in ernest. Bob