I have been in this game since 1978 and finally got a visit from our local ATFE guys yesterday. It was a compliance check and the only glitch was a 1909 action I couldn't find.

Now, here is the problem. They saw a few of my barreled actions and stock blanks laying around and wanted to know why I did not have a Manufacturers license! It seems they are going to come back and give me the written expanation of why I need it. Anyone?

Jim

don't know what they are up to but keep us posted please

I just got audited a few weeks ago, I do have a manufacturers license but like a lot of gunsmiths I don't actually make guns I modify them from an existing receiver of something. They were only there about 15 minutes and really only made sure what I had in the books were in the shop (they didn't even look at my personal guns that I keep in their own log book). There main comment was that I make sure and turn in the manufactures report be it zero or not. They didn't really seem that concerned with my process of modifying guns as long as I did it "correctly" as far as their rules are concerned.

Well...I am neither a gunsmith or a lawyer but I can read and comprhend the English language.

From the ATF website:

"Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the
person: 1) is performing operations that create firearms or alter firearms (in the
case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers,
rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the
changes, and then reselling them); 2) is performing the operations as a regular
course of business or trade; and 3) is performing the operations for the purpose of
sale or distribution of the firearms."

So pretty clear to me, if a gunsmith buys an action and modifies or even puts a barrel on it and then sells it to a customer. He is a manufacturer and needs a manufacturing license.

If it is done to a customer's action it is not considered manaufacturing.

Sounds like to me the ATF agents felt you may be "manufacturing" firearms.

probably shouldn't have called them all those nasty names

Same thing happened to me earlier this year, but I was due to renew my license so I just applied for the Manufacturer's license. The ATFE has been out to reduce the numbers of "dealers" for quite a while and this is one way they can do it. Smoke and mirrors of course, but that's politics.

Jim
I was inspected for the first time in 28 year about 3 years ago and already had a manufactures license. The two Agents were very professional but spent 4 days looking at everything and I mean everything in my shop. There was no doubt in their mind as to what type of classification I required. Stick on a stock, fit a barrel, enhance the value of a project and a standard 01 no loner applies.
D'Arcy

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
enhance the value of a project and a standard 01 no loner applies.
D'Arcy

By that rational, a simple repair should require that you have a manufacturing license. Obviously, a broken gun is worth less than a fully functioning gun. By simply fixing it you've enhanced the value.

Might not mean much to you since you truely are a manufacturer but to most smiths who might once in a blue moon supply a receiver it's a royal pain.

quote:

"Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the
person: 1) is performing operations that create firearms or alter firearms (in the
case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers,
rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the
changes, and then reselling them); 2) is performing the operations as a regular
course of business or trade; and 3) is performing the operations for the purpose of
sale or distribution of the firearms."

So pretty clear to me, if a gunsmith buys an action and modifies or even puts a barrel on it and then sells it to a customer. He is a manufacturer and needs a manufacturing license.

If it is done to a customer's action it is not considered manaufacturing.

Yup.....I really don't know how this can be misunderstood.

A year or so ago, Bush signed into law a bill
that included the old John Bivens 50 gun per year exclusion on having to have a manufactures license and pay excise taxes. Steve Hughes was the point man from the custom gun industy. Even testified before congress on the subject. So, you don't need a manufacturer's license,unless, you do more than 50 firearms per year.

Tommyhawk,

Unfortunately you are not correct. The exemption is from paying the excise tax. You still need the mfg's license.

The ATFs website is also clear on that issue.

I am not sure why folks have such difficulty grasping the concept.

When you are working on a customer's gun/receiver you are not manufacturing.

When you are working on a gun/reciever that you own and after you finish the work sell it to a customer, you are a manufacturer.

Here is another point to ponder.

While going through my A-D book, he noticed some entries were labeled as "action only" I sometimes buy actions for sale or whatever. He stated I needed to put down whether or not it was a Rifle, Pistol, or shotgun or whatever. I pointed out an L691 action I had, new in the box, and never barreled. I asked if he thought that was a rifle and what caliber it was. I said I don't know because it never had a barrel on it. To that he said "...interesting, I never heard of that.."

Went to a manufactureres license about 2 years ago for this very reason. If the 4473 hasn't been processed prior to the work being done you fall under manufacture. It was more of a hassle for my customers to have to have an action transfered to them prior to me doing any work. You have 1 more form to fill out each year if you stay under 50 guns, and the cost is less than a type 01.

So should a gunsmith who works on customer guns, but who also may purchase less than 50 guns per year that need repair before resale have a regular 01 FFL or get the Manufacturer License? Does a Manufacturer license also cover the regular 01 part of the business?

Mike,

With respect to the guns you purchase for reasle but "repair" first, it will depend on the repair.

I would suspect replacing parts or adjusting spring tensions is not manufacturing but if you re-cut the chamber or mill the receiver you are probably manufacturing. Oddly enough, I think re-bluing would classify as repair.

No, under the new law if you reblue an old gun you "manufacture" the gun.

So when that logic is applied elsewhere if I paint my house this makes me home builder. I painted a car one time. I even painted a christmas tree.

Hmm..... dont ya just love them governments

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
No, under the new law if you reblue an old gun you "manufacture" the gun.

Marc.....a clarification please.....

if you reblue a customers gun at the customers request it's gunsmithing.....but if you buy a gun and reblue it then it's manufacturing?
Just trying to clarify!

Vapo-

Read the regs and you will see where all sorts of things now legally mean that you "manufacture" a firearm. It was beat to death on this board a few months ago. I am not going into all of them here, but the government has everything posted on their web sites so everyone can see it. Forrest was the first one to post a link about it if you want to search under his name.

On gun boards people get all worked up over interpretting what the regs mean, but it is just mental masturbation. Try standing in front of a judge after the prosecution has just rested. You can say, "Your Honor, I printed off 397 pages from the BBS' on accuratereloading, 24hourcampfire, etc and the majority opinion is that I am in the right. And on top of that all gun laws are unconstitutional due to the Second Amendment."

I am not aiming that at you Vapo-just board folks in general. For some reason folks ask other blind hogs what the law really means. I always ask the ATF.

Oh, here is a nice one I read this week-the ATF has something on their web site saying they will no longer respond to emails asking if something is illelagal or legal under firearm laws. That one really irks me.

Here is a brain teaser for you:

Let's say you do general gunwork and also make some customs each year. You add up all of your barreling jobs, reblues, a handful of customs and all of a sudden the third week of October you realize that the fiberglass stock you put on a client's pre-64 M70 is the 51st gun you "manufactured" this year. Oh shit Batman, I now owe excise tax on the first 50 as well!

I have yet to hear a clear expanation on how the above scenario is resolved under the new regs. I had two agents sitting at my kitchen table this year and they could not tell me what was what. They were super-nice guys, but had no idea what to do in that situation in particular or how the excise tax situation in general would play out.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:

Let's say you do general gunwork and also make some customs each year. You add up all of your barreling jobs, reblues, a handful of customs and all of a sudden the third week of October you realize that the fiberglass stock you put on a client's pre-64 M70 is the 51st gun you "manufactured" this year.

Marc, I'm not a gunsmith, don't play one on TV, but my understanding from reading this thread for my own "enjoyment" is, if you put that stock on a "customer's" pre-64 M70, it doesn't count as you having "manufactured" it, it's a repair to a customers gun, no? The customer owned the gun when the stock was put on, not you.

Guys, please listen, it is not me making up the rules and definitions! Please read the ATF regs if you have a question. This has all been covered on this site a few months ago and is on the ATF site for any and everyone to see. If you don't like something or think it is fair or right, then contact the Secretary of the Treasury, your US Senators, and US Representative, as they can actually do something about it. I have as much power to change the law as you do.

Additionally, I still have not seen official, legally binding rulings from the ATF on just how all of the new "manufacturing" activities will shake out with the excise tax. The way things are now written, a gun or rifle can easily have, say, 4 manufacturers before the project is complete. Each one of these manufacturers must log it in and report it as manufactured at the end of the year. It is all clear as mud to me as it is to you.

I am not making the laws so please stop asking me about them. I am not going to write any more about it and want you to know why I am not so it doesn't look like I am just blowing you off. All I can do is throw out a wild guess just as the next guy can do. My guess is just as meaningless as Joe Gunsmith down the street. Please refer to my courtroom scenario in the post above. It really bothers me when people take legal advice from internet forums. It is totally meaningless and can be downright dangerous. I know people who violate laws that can change their life forever based strictly on what they read on some forum. The legal advice is totally meaningless. My interpretation of the ATF regs is completely and totally meaningless if you wind up in court. If you don't believe me, then get in trouble and tell a judge, "Marc Stokeld told me it was OK."

I know some may think I over react to legal advice on gun laws. I will tell you where I am coming from. I have never been arrested in my life. Never been even remotely close to it. As I have explained before in this forum, the law that says convicted felons cannot own a gun has deterred me from doing a lot of things when I was younger and fuller of piss and vinegar.

I also could not imagine losing my FFL. I am not going to interpret things in a way I want just so I can justify doing something grey. My practice has always been to ask to ATF if it was black or white and let that dictate my actions. The way folks interpret things on this or any other forum is just as meaningless as the way I would interpret grey things.

That is why I hate to go into legal things on the internet. My only advice is to ask the ATF and then contact the appropriate people if you want to see a change in the law. Steve Hughes was the lead person in changing the excise tax law and he did it through the proper channels. Had Steve just given his opinion on internet forums then nothing would have changed.

And this final question for you-when was the last time you contacted your government representatives? Effort wasted in internet forums can be put to use when directed at the appropriate people. Spend time writing them and not giving your legal opinion on this forum.

The NRA is the overwhelming voice of every single gun owner in this country. Even folks who will not join enjoy the protection of this organization. How many of you reading this are not NRA members? If you are a gun owner and do not belong to the NRA then I will publicly say shame on you. If I knew who you were I would call you out by name. What, you say you won’t join because of the NRA’s position on topic X? Well, do you agree with every single thing your wife says? Do you agree with every single thing your family says? Do you agree with every single thing your church says? Do you agree with every single thing your boss says? Unless you divorce, totally stop communication with your family, leave your church and quit your job, then you are a complete and total hypocrite. Join the NRA TODAY! Period. And for all of NRA members, how much have you donated to the NRA ILA this year? This is one of the most important elections in years and our rights are perilously hanging in the balance. Donate today! If I can donate in my current situation, then anyone can. Every little bit helps.

Spend your time doing these things and you can actually change the ridiculous regulations that have been imposed on us. Anything else is just mental masturbation.

I just received my FFL because it was required for a gunsmithing buisiness I wanted to start. I had a pretty good talk with the BATF agent (4+ hours) and even she admitted it was a gray area. But as far as she was concerned, if I modified, re-barrreled, re-stocked, blued, whatever to a gun a customer brought in for repair, the 01 dealers license was sufficient. One thing you may want to point out to them is 'manufacturing' in their view is NOT A REGULAR PART OF YOUR BUISINESS. What is 90+% of your work, on existing customer's guns I'm sure. It's a gray area even with them, but for some reason they're feeling the need to push gunsmith's into the manufacturing side for whatever reason. I stuck with the 01 dealer. I may stock a few rifles, but the agent agreed that as long as I had a customer in hand to build for before I knocked a barrel off and whatnot, it wouldn't require the 07 license.

That is the point I was trying to make earlier. We just need to make sure there is an "owner" to go along with the gun. I don't think the 4473 paperwork is the least bit of a hassle, it takes about 10 minutes tops.

Marc:

Off-topic but what does your tag line refer to.....

quote:

*** Jail is no excuse for a bad tattoo. ***

Well here is chapter two. They were here today and I fully expected them to demand I convert to a manufacurers license. It didn't happen. I was moderately surprised when the showed/read some opinions in the their book of questions and answere. The result: It seems if you take in a customer's action, owned by him, and want to turn it into a custom rifle, add barrel, stock, trigger, etc. it is OK and not considered manufacturing UNLESS, and a big unless, he bought it from you. It doesn't matter if it was ten years ago, if he bought it from you and you do the work, you are manufacturing it and have to report it as such, Now, if he brings you an action that he owns, not purchatsed from you, and wants a rifle built, no problem.

Bottom line, don't believe them. I think they all have an opinion that doesn't necessarily agree with another agents.

Jim I want to know how come you are not in jail yet?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Bottom line, don't believe them. I think they all have an opinion that doesn't necessarily agree with another agents.

Get their report in writing and demand that they be specific that you are in compliance.

I am learning the hard way that the regulating agency has broad leeway in deciding what the written law means.

Don't feel bad. ATF took my license this week after 19 years and ZERO mistakes, because I was deployed and let my "occupational license" lapse, hence I was not in compliance with "local regs" and the new Zoning Commissioner stopped issuing said licenses. He had an Obama sticker on his personal vehicle. Need I say more? jorge