Background:

I have a JC Higgins FN Mauser 98 rifle. I installed a Timney Sportsman trigger a couple of years ago (works great). I have just ordered and installed Timney's Buehler-style low safety (for a Mauser 98). Installation was pretty straight forward.

Aside from the Timney trigger, and now the new safety, the rifle is totally stock and unmodified. No alterations (ie bevels stoned in) were done to the Timney Beuhler safety or cocking piece on the bolt.

The safety works when in "safe" (engaged) mode. When engaged, and if the trigger is pulled, the rifle does not fire. When in "unengaged" or "fire" mode, the bolt can cycle, and the rifle can fire as designed. No problems there.

Question:
Is the Timney Buehler-style safety supposed to lock the bolt when in "safe" (cocked) mode/position (and prevent being opened when in "safe" mode)?

When I cycle the action to cock the bolt, I can engage the Timney/Buehler safety to put it in "safe" mode (as expected, and as designed). Using the same level of force to lift the bolt as normal cocking (after a fired shot), the Timney/Buehler safety will flip down from "safe" to "fire" mode. Is this normal?

I had the impression that when the safety was engaged, the bolt was locked, and would thus prevent you from cycling the bolt (with the Timney/Buehler safety on "safe").

Any Timney/Buehler-style safety users out there (on a Mauser 98)? Interested in your comments on the bolt locking issue. I called Timney, and they said they will check with their engineers about this. Haven't heard back yet (it's only been a few hours since I spoke to them).

Thanks in advance.

This is the Timney Buehler low-swing safety I mentioned:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewp...productnumber=473058
M

I have 3 FN left side and one right side leaf safety. All will lock the bolt when on "SAFE" To be honest I have never tried to force a bolt lift while on safety.

Just tried an FN (only one handy) and I COULD NOT open the bolt while on safe.

It is supposed to lock the bolt. Check the fit between the bolt root locking notch and the notched end of the safety shank. It sounds like the locking notch is catching the safety and camming it open when you lift the bolt. Also, did you insert the little friction spring in the safety? If not, the safety could be too loose in it's mortise and this is allowing the bolt notch to cam it around.

If it is a right wing type it will probably not lock the bolt. It should make the bolt less likely to come open inadvertantly.

I have installed various "wing" style safeties, Bueler/Timney & Mark IIs. All that engage from the right side will not lock down the bolt. The mechanics when engaged as a right hand side safety will not allow a true "locked" function. The bolt will cam the safety over as the bolt is opened.

A left wing safety (like the military) would lock the bolt securely as the bolt could not cam the lever open as in a right wing type.

It should, however, take considerably more force that just opening the bolt on a cocking cycle.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Just tried an FN (only one handy) and I COULD NOT open the bolt while on safe.

Is it a right wing or left wing type?

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Just tried an FN (only one handy) and I COULD NOT open the bolt while on safe.

Is it a right wing or left wing type?

His link shows the right hand. I've got it's twin installed on a M98 and it locks tight. It all depends on how the way the safety lock shoulders are cut. I've got a Dayton Traister on another 98 that does not lock the bolt. I wonder if he has one meant for a Springfield? It is the same length, but has different geometry on the lock shoulders.

quote:

Is it a right wing or left wing type

Left

On the right hand swing safeties, it does NOT lock the bolt. None of mine ever did. I will say that none of mine ever flipped off just by opening the bolt.....they required me to "jiggle" the bolt a few times before they flipped the lever down.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
On the right hand swing safeties, it does NOT lock the bolt. None of mine ever did. I will say that none of mine ever flipped off just by opening the bolt.....they required me to "jiggle" the bolt a few times before they flipped the lever down.

I have to lift mine pretty hard & then the safety snaps down & off.

As posted, it depends on the geometry of the locking cam & right hand wind safeties usually won't securely lock down the bolt handle.

It's not properly installed!

I have a Timney Sportsman and a Timney/Beuhler safety on a FN 98. When the safety is engaged, the bolt will not open.

I also have a JC Higgins M50 with a Timney trigger and the stock left-hand FN safety. There's no way I'd change out that safety.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
It's not properly installed!

What's not to instal properly. It's apretty straight forward instal.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
It's not properly installed!

What he said.

The Timney safety has a radius cut on the front of its shaft that should lock and prohibit the bolt body from turning / opening when “on safe”

Thanks for the replies. I will take a look at the safety tomorrow morning and check a few things out.

The safety is a "right hand" safety. By that I mean, the lever is on bolt handle side (it is the very same safety as in the link posted). The friction spring is installed in the shaft of the safety (90 degrees to the major axis of the safety's shaft).

The reason I'm trying the new safety is that I carry this right-handed bolt action rifle usually on my right shoulder. I noticed the original left side safety would catch on my coat and switch from "safe" to "unsafe"/"fire" mode. I didn't like that. To be honest, I never checked (or at least don't remember) if the left side original safety locks the bolt or not. I will take it apart tomorrow and put the original safety back, and check. Then I'll put the right side Timney/Buehler safety back on and see what happens.

There is one noted difference between the original and new Timney/Buehler safety. The original safety has front end milled out to form ~ 1/16" wide slot (like a thick screwdriver blade), and 2 ~ 0.10" shoulders. The new Timney Buehler safety's front end is cylindrical-with no material milled out (see picture in link). Maybe this is the issue causing the lack of bolt lock up.

I'll take a good look at it Saturday.

quote:

The reason I'm trying the new safety is that I carry this right-handed bolt action rifle usually on my right shoulder. I noticed the original left side safety would catch on my coat and switch from "safe" to "unsafe"/"fire" mode

That's why I never carry a cocked rifle slinged over my shoulder

I won't use safeties with their wing on the right side, for 2 reasons:

As stated, the right-side wing will NOT lock the bolt handle down and lifting the handle will actually disengage the safety, and

The right-side wing is on the wrong side for my right thumb, which usually rests across the top of the rifle's wrist on the left side immediately behind & underneath a LEFT-side safety's wing.

The Buehler style would a splendid safety if it was made with a left-side wing like some of the pre-WW2 wing safeties for low scopes. Too bad.
Regards, Joe

I have that exact set up on a commercial FN action, both trigger and safety. Mine most definitely locks the bolt when fully engaged.

Dear Nugman:

I just reinstalled an original Buehler right hand wing safety, and when "on safe", it locks the bolt handle just like the Mauser factory wing safety.

Now if I don't fully engage the Buehler safety, and put a lot of pressure on the bolt handle, it will knock it off safe. When fully engaged, I can't get it to knock off safe.

On the other hand, I had a bunch of the Timney Buehler style safeties, and sent them all back to Brownells. They were pretty sloppy, and maybe your "on safe" disengagement problem could be caused by the poor machining and specifications of the Timney model.

Maybe its not fully "on safe".

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Dear Nugman:

As a follow up, I looked inside the bolt shroud with the original Mauser wing safety and the Buehler safety installed, and on safe.

The Mauser safety completely fills the half moon cut out on the back of the bolt body that locks the bolt in place. The Buehler one only fills in about one half of the half moon cut out.

Also, the non-rounded portion of the Buehler safety within the shroud that interrupts the half moon of the bolt body is angled in such a fashion that if you really jammed on the bolt handle, you could mechanically knock it off.

A left hand variant like the original J. C. Higgins one or an old FN one would probably fill up the half moon with the rounded portion of the safety like the original Mauser wing safety.

It looks like Buehler had to compromise to make a RH swing safety work, since you need his full cut out in the safety to open and close the bolt when off safe.

Nevertheless, at fully engaged, I can't get it to knock off.

If you fell hard and hit the bolt handle just right, it may knock off though.

Like you though I had my LH original swing safety on an old FN Mauser catch on my jacket and knock off numerous times. Unfortunately, the LH one is ergonomically correct and as mentioned above probably is impossible to knock off by raising the bolt handle.

I do prefer the compromise with the RH Buehler safety, based upon my experience with the LH one catching on my jacket.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I looked at my Timney/Buehler safety today. I installed it properly. Spring in place properly.

It still disengages from "fire" to "safe" with not much more bolt lift than a normal cocking action. It almost appears that the outer radius of the safety is contacting the inner shaft of the cocking piece and rolls it out from "safe" to "fire" when the bolt is lifted.

I was tempting to stone down the outside diameter of the safety so it wouldn't be in contact the cocking piece assembly-but I didn't want to void any chance to return it to Midway.

In short, I put back the original "lever on the left side" safety. It definitely locks the bolt. I will send the Timney/Buehler safety back to Midway. I'll try another one, if the design is SUPPOSED to lock the bolt when in "safe" mode. Maybe the one I had was just a little out of spec. Anyway, at least I gave my bolt a good cleaning and lube in the process.

Thank you for all your replies. I found it interesting that there seems to be a varied response that some of these safeties lock the bolt and some do not. That tells me there is something going on. I'm in no hurry, maybe the next one will do the trick.

I learned one more thing. I want to do some shooting. It's one thing to dry fire a nice rifle out the back window. It's quite another to put holes in paper and smell powder.

Thanks again for the quick replies.

quote:

Originally posted by nugman:
I looked at my Timney/Buehler safety today. I installed it properly. Spring in place properly.

It still disengages from "fire" to "safe" with not much more bolt lift than a normal cocking action. It almost appears that the outer radius of the safety is contacting the inner shaft of the cocking piece and rolls it out from "safe" to "fire" when the bolt is lifted.

I was tempting to stone down the outside diameter of the safety so it wouldn't be in contact the cocking piece assembly-but I didn't want to void any chance to return it to Midway.

In short, I put back the original "lever on the left side" safety. It definitely locks the bolt. I will send the Timney/Buehler safety back to Midway. I'll try another one, if the design is SUPPOSED to lock the bolt when in "safe" mode. Maybe the one I had was just a little out of spec. Anyway, at least I gave my bolt a good cleaning and lube in the process.

Thank you for all your replies. I found it interesting that there seems to be a varied response that some of these safeties lock the bolt and some do not. That tells me there is something going on. I'm in no hurry, maybe the next one will do the trick.

I learned one more thing. I want to do some shooting. It's one thing to dry fire a nice rifle out the back window. It's quite another to put holes in paper and smell powder.

Thanks again for the quick replies.

The feature of camming to the fire position (allowing the bolt to be cycled from then "safe" condition) may be a new design feature to satify liability issues. Having to go to fire position before attempting to open the bolt may not make the lawyers happy.

Who knows?

Mine takes considerable force to open the bolt when on "safe" so I am perfectly happy W/the arrangement.

The only thing I could think of that might prevent that happening would possibly (inside) radiusing the surface that contacts the bolt body sop that it has less mechanical advantage as far as pushing the safety to the off position.

It's hard to beat the 3 position Mod-70 type wing safety. It gives you the best of both worlds. The big drawback is the cost.

If you already have the low profile left side safety I would leave well enough alone. If you don't want it, I'll take it off your hands!

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

The reason I'm trying the new safety is that I carry this right-handed bolt action rifle usually on my right shoulder. I noticed the original left side safety would catch on my coat and switch from "safe" to "unsafe"/"fire" mode

That's why I never carry a cocked rifle slinged over my shoulder

me either, and I crawl around with the bolt forward and the handle in the "up" position.

Nugman,

While they have been plenty of replies to your question, I don't believe anyone has explained why the safe you put in cams the wing down to the fire position when you lift the bolt. (Maybe this is due to concerns about liability.) At the risk of stating the obvious, remember these are old actions, and often have had mismatched or replacement parts or have had work done. Tolerances are seldom as they were when they were made, and of course are often not correct if parts are from different manufacturers.

The bolt lock feature is designed for a military ccw rotating to fire left wing safe. That exposes a full 1/4 inch pin to fully engage the bolt locking notch. I think the right wing safe's are not as good a design since the half circle of the notch must meet the flat face of the safe shaft. It is true that the safety is designed to lock the bolt and it will if installed properly and if the tolerances of the parts are still in spec.

Two situations will cause your problem to occur. If the safety wing does not come up to full height the bolt locking notch will not engage the safety step with full "face on face" contact, and will rotate the shaft of the safety.

Remove the bolt shroud and check the position of the step at the end of the safety. It should be exactly vertical with the wing "up". If it sits at less than 90degrees when on "safe", the stop on the wing needs to be "adjusted" until it does.

Now look at the bolt locking notch that this part engages. The bolt may have been polished excessively reducing the diameter, or the notch may be rounded or worn on the handle side If so, it will not meet that locking shaft step with full contact. If the diameter of the bolt root is smaller than the shroud, the notch in the bolt will engage the safe shaft at the perimeter, that causes it to turn. Some don't properly protect the root of the bolt when forging or welding the handle and this notch becomes soft. If you re-cut that handle side shoulder of the notch and enlarge it it may lock but you have loose bolt lift. Better to replace with a bolt that fits the shroud or have a good welder rebuild this and mill the notch to the correct size and depth with an end mill and harden. Bolts should be inspected with care to be sure they have proper fit with the bolt shroud. (The butt end of the bolt is well hidden in that shroud, no reason to polish at all.)

The problem is not where the safe wing engages the cocking piece, the cocking piece does not rotate. A "different" safe will have the same problem if your bolt root is small, soft or worn.

Military and left wing safeties rotate ccw to fire position, the same direction as the bolt lift, that exposes a full pin to the notch so this is not a problem. Two position horizontal safeties plunge a full round shaft into the bolt root to lock this.

I don't have pictures of this, so hopefully this excessively wordy explanation is helpful. Apologies to those who find this elementary.

Roger

quote:

Originally posted by RogerR:
Apologies to those who find this elementary.

Roger

Thanks for taking the time to post this info. Anyone who finds it tedious can skip over it.

quote:

I don't have pictures of this, so hopefully this excessively wordy explanation is helpful. Apologies to those who find this elementary.

Roger

Excellent explanation thanks.