So I have heard before about gunsmiths using the same chamber reamer to cut a set of reloading dies that matches the chamber. How well does this work in reality, assuming the fellow that is doing the work knows his business? I have always wondered if that was one of those things that worked as good in the real world as it sounds like it would on paper.

You need a different, smaller reamer to do it. The brass will not size down.

I've heard of using a roughing reamer for FL dies.

When I've had reamers made I usually get a die reamer also if it is a wildcat caliber. I use Callahan die blanks to make my dies. The chamber reamer is used for the seating die and the die reamer for the sizing die. The only problem I have had is I always seem to have scratches in my cases when sizing. I polish the dies very well and not sure why I get these scratches. The dies are 4140 and pre hard but still pretty soft. This may cause the scratches.
The chamber reamer makes a great seating die.

Okay, sounds like I just had half the idea in my mind. Chambering reamer for seating die, smaller reamer for sizer. Makes sense. Looks like properly hardened dies off the shelf would be a better option if available, correct?

Hello JTP:

Jim Kobe, Jim C and srose are all correct in that normally a different reamer, slightly smaller in diameter than the finisher, is needed to make f/l sizing dies. As they stated, the finisher can also be used to make a seating die.

There is a specialized situation, however, in which the finish reamer CAN be used to make a re-sizing die, but it doesn't save a lot of money or work. Criteria for this are: 1, the cartridge/gun combination in question must not require a lot of body re-sizing for proper function--think bolt-gun, precision shooting, NOT semi-autos. 2,neck-sizing must be accomplished with bushings. 3, you should have access to an electroplater who does hard chrome, or "flash chrome" plating.

An aftermarket die blank--such as available from Troy Newlon, and utilizing neck-sizing bushings--is reamed with the finisher. The entrance to the die should be radiussed for ease of use. It is then sent to the plater with the request that .0015"-.0020" thickness be plated on the ID of the die only. This results in the inside of the die being from .003"-.004" smaller than when it was reamed with the finisher. Less thickness could be specified if you wanted less case working, but I wouldn't recommend more--it gets costly on a one-off.

It's important that no plating get into the area where the neck-sizing bushing seats. Bushings are usually a close fit and plating in that area may preclude their fitting the die.

When you get the die back from the plater, the inside will have a frosted appearance. This can be polished, if only to add a little shine, but be careful not to chip the chrome at the entry to the die. I've made sizing dies using this technique several times and they've worked well because applications were appropriate. Even though the inside of the die is hard and slippery, case lube must still be used. It's not a method for everyone, but it can be useful in the right circumstances.

Dave Manson

Very good explanation, thank you!

Mr. Manson, I prefer to have a sizing reamer that is .003 smaller at the base and .002 smaller at shoulder. I send my finished die to Mimi Trutec to have them Melonite QPQ treat them to RC68.
Mr. Newlon's die blanks are top notch.
Butch

Hello Mr. Lambert:

As you've experienced, different degrees of sizing work for different people with different applications. I described a particular "tool" that had been useful in the past. Hadn't considered Melonite for the ID, but I'll bet it works very well.

Dave Manson

Butch,
I am surprised that your sizing numbers pretty well reflect my preferences from messing with a lot of dies, brass and chambers.

It works for me, but I sure don't claim it is best. If I find someting better I will change.
Butch

The only time I had to make reloading dies I had to make them .0035 smaller as .002 was too big still. This was for a 223 based wildcat.

Butch, can the 12L14 die blanks from Newlon be treated with Melonite?

Eddie,
I think so but would defer to Joel Kendrick of Mimi Trutec. I'll get his contact and email it to you.
Butch

Except for dead straight cases (no body taper) wouldn't it be possible to make a useable body sizing die by running the chamber reamer in short and then cutting the top of the die off where the chamber shoulder begins in that die? The case shoulder is not set back, while a case pushed in far enough will be sized down sufficiently to work in actual use? No?

That is what I do already, just because I have the spare time and don't have to make any money at it. So far it seems to work.

With a tapered (usually bottlenecked) case, I can then shove the brass into the die until the taper reduces the body size the amount I want. By adjusting the die body up or down in the press, and setting the lock ring where it needs to be, the amount of sizing accomplished is uniform for each case. I have also tried (and found useful) running the chamber finish reamer in full length into the die body blank and then cutting both ends of the die off to get the tapered portion I want to use for a body die.



I use my shoulder bushing die to set the shoulder back if I need to, and/or to size the neck down. I make all my own die bodies and bushings from bar stock.

So far, it has worked well enough for me with my benchrest cases. For several of my different cartridges I have never owned a commercial sizing die of any sort. Several of those cartridges are wildcats cut to my own dimensions, so die sets would be "custom dies", and priced acordingly, if I had to buy dies for them.

It certainly may not be ideal, but it seems to work well enough for my shooting purposes so far.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Mr. Manson, I prefer to have a sizing reamer that is .003 smaller at the base and .002 smaller at shoulder. I send my finished die to Mimi Trutec to have them Melonite QPQ treat them to RC68.
Mr. Newlon's die blanks are top notch.
Butch

Questions for Butch:

Which TruTec facility do you use? Are they "user friendly" for small jobs? Approximate cost?

Thanks!

This is from an email that Joel Kendrick sent me.

Butch,



Small lots and individual order are processed through Rodney Lanier:
Contact Rodney Lanier information below.

Regards,
Joel Kendrick
Application Engineer
MMI-Turtec, Inc.
cell 704-616-6442



Send to :
MMI-Trutec, Inc.
2609 N. 12th Avenue
Paragould, Ar. 72450
ph 870-236-6920
Attn: Rodney Lanier

Dear Sir,

I am the plant Manager of MMI. Well as Joel has said do not accept individual accounts. However a long time in house employee has assumed this business. He will use our bath with a surcharge. There is not any need in sending these parts to an outside source and then us. You can send them directly to Rodney Lanier rlanier77@hotmail.com. They will come directly to MMI Arkansas facility attention Rodney. His charge is $60 per barrel and $75 for handguns and $55 shot gun barrel. check made out in his name included in the package plus $20 shipping or an ups account #. You can contact him at 870-236-6920

Thanks,

Mike Wooldridge
Plant Manag
MMI-Trutec
Paragould, Arkansas


I sent mine in with other things and do not have a clue as to the pricing for the dies.

Butch

Thanks Butch.

Is there any wisdom posted on AR or another forum describing the merits of Melonite on/in a barrel? Maybe BR forum?

I will do a little searching.


Edit: Good article here

http://bulletin.accurateshoote...triding-for-barrels/

And your comments are included in one of the linked posts.

More here,

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=400101799#400101799

The color is black. The barrels that I polished had a Weatherby deep polished black color. Most just beadblast and treat. Below is an informative e mail from a military armorer.


Butch,

You may find this interesting, see e-mail below.

I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.

As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).

As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.

Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.

Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.

I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.

One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.

I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.

Best of luck!



I would like to say Melonite QPQ or Isonite is not a coating. It is a low temp"900deg" metal treatment. It is kinda like case hardening.

Butch

Some time ago I read a response to a similar question (can a chamber reamer be used to make a resizing die) and one of the respondents advised using a steel which shrinks with heat treatment after the reaming process.

Glad I came across this thread.
I do have a question regarding reamer makers.
Who is out there with a very good reputation for making good reamers beside Claymors?

I guess I should start a new subject for that.

Malek
Good hunting/shooting and God's best

I normally use Dave Kiff at PT&G.

Thanks Butch:

Any info,pH #, Email address, what kind of results you have gotten, degree of satisfaction, etc?

Malek
Good hunting/shooting and God's best

Try this http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/
They are a pleasure to deal with.

Thank you for the link.

I did look it over, great stuf.

Malek
Good hunting/shooting and God,s best

Dave Manson, who posted earlier in this thread is arguably the best reamer maker (or at least in the top 3) today. I use both Manson Reamers and PTG and prefer Manson's. His website info is:

http://www.mansonreamers.com/

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Glad I came across this thread.
I do have a question regarding reamer makers.
Who is out there with a very good reputation for making good reamers beside Claymors?

I guess I should start a new subject for that.

Malek
Good hunting/shooting and God's best

You are only limited by your imagination:











More below, all custom:



The ugly one, floating bullet seater insert reamed with the chamber reamer. Change the insert and seat stem and the die body may be used for other cartridges, this one is 1-1/4” thread size for big cartridges. Micrometer adjust for seating.

You're too good John!
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
You're too good John!
Butch

Naw, just stubborn.

I do not like factory conventional dies for my big bore rifles, first they don't fit and second they work the brass too much. So I went to neck sizer bushings. Especially for the odd big bores with extremely expensive brass!

When I start on a rifle project and order the reamers to my specs, I order a resize reamer and a finish reamer. Resizer is also used as a roughing reamer in addition to making a resize die. If it is a strange cartridge requiring both case forming and fire forming, once I have the case to size I do not use the resize die anymore, just the neck size die with the interchangable bushings.

I really like floating insert seat dies, especially for big bore cases. I can taylor an insert specifically for the case neck and the bullet length and also make a top stem that fits the bullet nose. No more cocked bullet seating or case mouth damage caused by a poor alignment of the bullet to the case.

But you benchrest guys using Wilson style seaters in a arbor press already know this!


Next project is a set of 500 Jeffery dies. I have not yet decided just what I want, I am leaning towards a portable set similar to the reloading equipment provided by the great London Gunmaking Firms that accompanied their pre WWI rifles.

I just made another sizing die and sent it to MIMI Trutec for melonite Monday. It gives a 68Rockwell C. They do not scratch the brass.

Pretty much all I shoot are wildcats and Dave Kiff make all of my reamers. We have been doing this so long that when we dream up a new cartridge Speedy sends the dimensions to him and Dave puts it into his format and makes a roughing and a finishing reamer. I have 11 sets of custom dies that were made when the tube or tubes were chambered.

If you have a good Smith this is a non issue to figure out.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I just made another sizing die and sent it to MIMI Trutec for melonite Monday. It gives a 68Rockwell C. They do not scratch the brass.

I will do this on my next set. Thanks Butch!

quote:

If you have a good Smith this is a non issue to figure out.

Yup, easy as pie.