After the previous discussion about the differences between a M70 and a G33/40 many people brought up other small ring Mauser actions. Not having had a Mauser before, I am interested to hear the differences in the Brno 21H, VZ-33 and G33/40, as well as any other high quality small ring actions you may know about. My motive is that I would like to have the lightest possible, wood stocked, long action, Mauser based rifle built. (I wouldn't have this problem if I had not made the mistake of clicking on Bill Soverns website link and found his G33/40 .270 which weighs 7 pounds with a scope, but alas it is too late now).

Thanks,
Chet

The small ring 1910 & 1936 Mexican Mausers make nifty custom rifles. They are intermediate length, good for cartridges like the 7x57, 6.5x55, 308, 7-308, 250-3000, etc. (the only intermediate length small ring Mauser). Much cheaper than the 33-40, although they also require lots of gunsmithing to get them up to snuff. Commercial small ring Brno 21/22s are nice too, cheaper in the long run than building a custom on a small ring military 98, unless you can do the work yourself. Someone on the other thread also mentioned commercial HVA's, another good small ring Mauser.

Chet - I do not know about the 21H but can give you this info from my research on the others: The VZ 16/33 was produced prior German invasion then was renamed the G33/40 by the Germans. If you are looking at just the action, there should be little to no difference. A word of caution, there were two VZ-33s: the 16/33 which is a small ring light weight, the other is a 12/33 which is a large ring. Will provide more on the 12/33s in a couple of weeks when I pick mine up.

THe G 33/40 will be the lightest. I prefer it to the 21H and Mexican ( I have a lot of Mex's and 33/40's and one 21H right now). THe Mex is intermediate length. THe 21H does not have the lightening cuts, plus it has the heavey square bridges. The VZ 33 folks talk about here is harder to find than the G 33/40, plus it does not have the lightening cuts so it is heavier.

As for cost, the 21H will cost as much to get in a custom rifle as a G 33/40. The 21H will have a safety very few people want, double triggers, and a high bolt handle. The only thing you don't have to do with the 21H is drill and tap fo rscope bases, which is the least of your worries any way. I really like the action, but appearantly few here have ever seen one and just wanted to keep all of it in perspective. It is far from perfect, but then so is eveyrthing else.

THe Pre64 M70's are often farther out than a military Mauser and can have some pretty good bannana action going on. But they are less expensive

I used to have certified weights of the Mexican 1910, 1936, G 33/40, and several other M98's. If I can find the sheet I'll post the weights. I prefer the G 33/40

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
The 21H will have double triggers

What's wrong with that?

quote:

Originally posted by Chet:
My motive is that I would like to have the lightest possible, wood stocked, long action, Mauser based rifle built.

Why don't you just buy a Kimber 84M and have the bolt slicked up a bit? Too easy?

The Czech VZ 33 does have lightening cuts on the receiver rails as does the g33/40--at least the one I am looking at does. The Peru 1932 might not, but I have never seen on of those and I think that is a Czech product too. The Czechs made a bunch more g33/40 for the Germans than they ever produced in the VZ 33 for internal use prior to 1940.

The FN made for Browning in a small ring for a couple of years in the early sixties was a small ring but had large ring thread unlike the Czech. The receiver is not relieved as it is on the Czechs either behind the ring. I like the looks of the VZ. The Browning FN has alloy bottom metal though, which will save you four to five ounces over the VZ & g33. Plus a great trigger and good safety.

I would like to look over a couple 21s but they aren't exactly giving those away...

The main difference is the 21H Brno is a commercial action and its finished in a commercial fashion, it is also a double square bridge action..It would be my first choice for a custom rifle, but the action alone is very expensive and buying a rifle for conversion would be very expensive...It has double set triggers which I like but can be replaced, the safty is a drop down on the left side receiver and it suits me fine...In fact I have sold the 21H saftys for $150.00 for custom rifles in the past...They are popular on DGRs...the double square bridges is a fine feature and does not require drilled and tapped bases..Talley and Warne make QD rings for the 21H...

All that said the 21H is pretty much a custom rifle from the factory with its shotgun trigger guard, sleeved rear sight, barrel band swivel and barrel band front sight, polished rails, double square bridges and left hand drop safty. It also has a fantastically tough blue job, some say its slow rust, others claim is the same as the old winchesters, I am not sure of the blue because I have talked to too many "experts" and they all disagree on that. I think from its durability and long lasting that it must be a slow rust blue...It seems not to wear at all..

Presently I only have one 21H, but I have owned a dozen of them over the years and they just keep going up in price and I keep selling them..The 22 is a manlicher version of same.

I have had four 21H rifles and have three now, including an ultra-rare "roundbolt" one, re-chambered from 7x57 to .280 Rem. With trigger and safety mods, to suit my preferences, these are a super rifle and I much prefer the integral scope mount bases to any screw-on system, even Talleys.

I would like to find a nice G33-40, but, since 21Hs are not too pricey here, my last one, in good shape and now stripped for the action, cost me $300.00 CDN, I would probably just use another one of these rather than a 33-40. I prefer a slightly higher scope mount, so, the bolt handle on the butterknife ones is not an issue and it can be easily modified, anyway.

I wish that someone would come out with a re-issue of the 21H and ZG-47 actions, especially a lengthened, magnum version of the latter, with the same quality.............not too likely! Ray is right about the bluing, it wears like nothing else I have ever seen.

So, are we talking about a "small ring" 98 built on the "standard" large ring length, or are these merely small ring "intermediate length" actions?

In other words are these actions long enough and strong enough for "06" length cartridges such as 30-06, 270, 280 etc.?

Nothing is wrong with DST and I really like them. But I am very much in the minority on that one. Most Americans hate DST. The biggest gripe I have about the 21H is that the bolt does not lock with the safety. It is the smoothest Mauser I have ever used, so that means the slick bolt is opening all the time in the field. Can be easily fixed with a M-70 safety. Great actions, but not the lightest way to get a rifle, which is what the original poster was asking.

Interesting about the VZ-33. Was it cut from the factory? I have only seen one and it was years ago. I was thinking it was not milled like the 33/40 (at least above the wood line).

OK, just looked up the 33 in the Olson book. He says there are lightening cuts below the wood, but does not mention the left side wall being milled like the G 33/40 is. Can you post a pic of the 33?

I have a couple of Mexican 1910's I shortened to .250 length and then milled them ala G33/40. I then made integral scope bases to fit Gentry rings. I hosed one up and threw it aside, but hope to finish the other one before this decade is out. I have a very light piece of English I have been saving for it. Want to see just how light I can get the rifle. The barrel is approxiamtely BB gun dimensions now.

quote:

Marc Stokeld: I have a couple of Mexican 1910's I shortened to .250 length and then milled them ala G33/40. I then made integral scope bases to fit Gentry rings.

Can you post a pic? I'd love to see one.

That is the No.1 problem with the 21H and the gun dealer here in Vancouver has told me of this resulting in guys losing bolts; I had my initial 21H 40 years ago and it would come open while climbing through the buckbrush in the extremely rugged, snowy country where I grew up.That is why I sold it and went to Browning Safari Grades, P-64s and Mannlicher-Schoenauers, BUT, with minimal mods., I consider this to be the best hunting rifle action for '.06 based rounds, under my hunting conditions, at least.

Can't remebr hwo to imbed a pic in a post, so here is a link to 3 pics. I am recovering from ahnd surgery, and did not wnat to set up the tripod just for this, so I handheld as best i could. Please forgive the images. Also, please remeber that this is very rugh and no where near finished.

SHortened M1910 in center, flanked by G 33/40 and a regular M1910

Shortened Mexican

Marc's actions:

Interesting scope bases. What caliber do you plan to use?

Nice work Marc.

Will post pics in a few days--camera is busy...

Both sides milled...assume it is factory...I have talked to a few other guys with VZ 33s and they all are milled. It is exactly the same as the g33/40 I have except the front screw lug has curves on the muzzle side rather than milled straight like the g33/40

Wildcat:
The VZs are long actions with a small ring as is the FN Browning. The Mex 1910 and 1936 are intermediate small rings. The 1954 Mex is a a modified 1936 I believe. The FN only needs the mag altered to feed the 06 length.

A clarification about the Brno's: Eventhough most of them come with double set triggers not all does! They were also made with a single trigger (and "ZG47 safety") - Se below.
These two actions are original.

Then I'm not sure if the integral bases really add any weight as most people would put bases there anyway and the front base is really low.
//K9

PS If you can't see the pic ... Well it's imagestation doing whatever they're always doing.....DS

Tomk:

What I am talking about with the left side being milled is the actual left wall of the action, directly across from the ejection port. When looking at the left side of the action, is there a step down right behind the front reciever ring, or is the left side of the action in the same plane as the front ring?

Marc:

The left wall is milled exactly as is done on the g33/40. The effect is the front ring looks like a large ring action reduced in size as there is a step down from the ring along the left wall. Very pleasing to the eye...mine at least. I do not know if the VZ bolt handles were hollowed like the g33. I was wondering about that. The FN Browning small rings do have the front ring on the same plane as you probably know.

I will send you a pic as soon as I get the camera cleared and can figure out how to post. Am underwater, too much to do.

Milling the wall reduction and the lightening cuts into the Mexican makes it into the ultimate lightweight mauser for 7x57 length case, doesn't it? Did you weigh the Mex before and after? I would imagine without the springfield cocker on the 1936 that it should then be lighter than the VZ types. Perhaps some titanium bottom metal...

quote:

Why don't you just buy a Kimber 84M and have the bolt slicked up a bit? Too easy?

HP,

I think you have figured me out. Going with a Kimber would be way to easy. Also, I love a good custom project now and then.

Chet

All of my Brno 21s and 22s would allow the bolt to lift, but the bolt would not come back??? I never found this an problem anyway, and I sure hunted with them...I doubt that there is a better action..

As I understand it the VZ33 was made in a small number of rifles (500?) for the Chec Customs Service Officials, it was a G33/40 but differently marked....

quote:

Originally posted by Chet:

quote:

Why don't you just buy a Kimber 84M and have the bolt slicked up a bit? Too easy?

HP,

I think you have figured me out. Going with a Kimber would be way to easy. Also, I love a good custom project now and then.

Chet

I hear you.......

All Brno 21 and 22 came with double set triggers...If you have one with a single trigger it has been modified IMO.......other Brno models had single triggers...

I love a double set trigger, it was designed for off hand and running shots, and it does work for that...so if anyone takes a set off their Brno 21 or 22, I would like to buy them.

quote:

All Brno 21 and 22 came with double set triggers...If you have one with a single trigger it has been modified

No. Some came from the factory with a single trigger, like the one pictured above. I have an 8x57 made in 1950 with a single trigger, the trigger guard is cut for just the one trigger. The ZG-47 bolt is correct too, numbered to the receiver. Not many, but some.

The finest Brno, IMO, the ZG-47:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
All Brno 21 and 22 came with double set triggers...If you have one with a single trigger it has been modified IMO.......other Brno models had single triggers...

Ray

That is not true at all I had both versions and all parts had matching serial number Ray, managed to twist your knickers again?

fla3006
Nice pictures

Cheers
/ JOHAN

A friend of mine, here in Vancouver, had a 21H long barrel in 8-57jrs with the factory single trigger and the bottom metal was cut for it. I hate dst and replace all of mine with other bottom metal and single triggers, then, I can use a synthetic stock and save the original parts to return the rifle to original, when I eventually sell my guns.

ZG-47....close to perfection as it came from the factory, a 21H roundbolt-ZG safety, single trigger in 7-57 and a ZG-47 in 9.3x62 would do me for absolutely everything in western Canada; a rare pair of rifles to dream about. I have the actions and will get rifles built on them in the above calibers, but, originals would be nice.

I would like to see a Brno Mod 21 or 22 with a single trigger, could you possibly post one?? Not a ZG but a 21 or 22...

This abortion was once advertised as having a "factory" single trigger. I had to explain to the owner the following observations.

You can see the slots for the original double triggers, fore and aft of the larger hole made for a standard 98 style style single trigger.


From the side you can see the pin holes for the original double triggers.

THanks for the pics Tomk!!!

Here is my 21H with single trigger.
Is anybody reloading for this rifle? Would like to know your recipes! What is the barrel twist?

Cheers

Martin

No offence intended, but, I would be very surprised if that were not a conversion from the original DSTs. I have a roundbolt done exactly that way and the single example of a 21H with a factory single trigger that I have seen looked exactly like the photos in the above post, the trigger was shaped like a ZG-47.

What cal. is your rifle, did you obtain it from G.F. in the Lower Mainland of B.C.?

.

Thanks for your posts!
I bought this rifle 3 years ago from a guy in Alberta. It is a 7x57 Made in 1950. I always thought it is a H21, maybe I#m wrong? I hope it I'm not totally sure but I think there is no space for a second trigger if you look at the opening in the plate!? Somebody told me a certain number of these rifle were imported with an altered trigger to satisfy the North American market.

Here is a picture:


Unfortunately I found serious pitting as well



Cheers

Martin