The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing building a custom pdog shooterGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| building a custom pdog shooter | Login/Join |
| new member |
OK! I guess I know less now about reloading than I did ten minutes ago. I thought neck turning would help, but I do plan on building a new pdog gun, any suggestions? I want something that is capable of shooting ½ inch at 200 or there about. I have a factor 22-250 in a Rem 700 stainless heavy barrel that will shoot less than ½ at 100 but not consistently. I was thinking that neck turning would help. It sounds to be quite the contrary. I have another Rem 700 action I would like to build another Pdog shooter off of. How would you set up your custom built pdog shooter? | ||
|
One of Us |
You're dreaming! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Put a good quality barrel on a Remington 700 short action and use it as a single shot so you can shoot long shells in it such as the 25-06. Glass bed it to a laminated or good quality synthetic stock and fit it with a 6.5-20 Leupold scope with the target knobs and take it out for some load developement. You can use many different barrels but I'd recommend a number 5 contour for the longer ranges and 26" is enough. 22-250 or 6mm Rem are excellent chamberings as is the 25-06. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
gotta go along with VD again - you're dreaming. I've had hundreds of rifles, but damn few Damn few that would ever shoot that well. You can make one up to shoot that well, but doing so will be a large degree of luck. and the 2nd question is can you shoot that well?? | |||
|
| One of Us |
It may have done it once, but it ain't gonna happen with any regularity. I don't care what you spend on a 22-250 it will maybe shoot well, but not even 1" consistantly at 200 yds. Butch | |||
|
| One of Us |
I assume it is a 700 varmit model. Wow here goes. I would glass bed, single shot follower. 6 or 6.5 BR. Top end barrel have it trued and assembled by a benchrest gunsmith. I would go no smaller than Remingtons Varmit contour.If you have a HS stock on it I would looking into epoxying the hole in the bottom of the stock solid. I would add weight where ever I could. Probably be looking for a good benchrest stock designed to ride sand bags. Jewell trigger set in the ounces rather than pounds. Can it be done,yep, but chances are very slim. I would go at least 20x glass 40x + would be better. A good set of wind flags and knowledge of how to read a condition. You will really have to practice your bench technique and polish up your reloading skills. Do alot of shooting at 300 plus yards. Mistakes will magnify as you get out there. Remember a thou of error at the gun will equal 2 inches at 200yards. That ain't much of a pull. I do not want to sound like a dick. The Super shoot was won with a .24 agg at 100. Top shooters in the world using the best equipment money can buy. You are asking for same 1/4 MOA at twice the distance. Good Luck. I think inch would be more realistic average. | |||
|
| one of us |
If you have not had a custom rifle built before, one of the best options is to talk to a first rate smith, and agree with him what would work, and let him do it all for you. Mike Bryant is excellent and builds VERY accurate rifles. Needless to say, there are also other great smitrhs, but find one who is willing to talk to you (in moderation). Since you want to start with a M700 action, building the new gun should include blue printing the action. Alternatively, you could start out with a semi-custom action like Gerry Stiller's "Predator" action. But if you already have the M700... I'm not sure if you can obtain the 1/2" @ 200 yrd, but 1/2" @ 100 is just plenty for PD hunting - and darn accurate in the real World. What bolt face does your M700 action have?? I would choose my caliber according to the bolt face of the action: .223 Rem, 6mm BR etc etc. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
|
one of us |
While the 22-250 is accurate to get even close to what you are asking you need to think along the ones of the 6PPC or 6BR full benchrest quality rifle. Like others have said I feel your goal post is a little to far. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
|
One of Us |
I think the guy wants "something that is capable of shooting ½ inch at 200 or there about". There is nothing difficult about building a gun that is capable of "shooting 1/2 inch or there about" groups at 200 yards. Of course to keep the rounds landing that close together is going to require more than just the gun. Greg, are you sure you wouldn't be happy with 3/4 inch groups?  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
|
one of us |
I've got one gun that will shoot into 2" at 400 yards, if I do everything perfect in loading the ammo and behind the trigger and conditions are perfectly consistent. I only burn 25-30 lbs of gunpowder a year (not counting rimfires) so more trigger time would help me. Start by finding an accuracy nut for a gunsmith, look on the benchrest websites. Then write him a large check. While you're at it write another check to Krieger, Shilen, Hart, etc. Then Redding for the bushing dies and Lapua for match brass, then add a good trigger manufacturer, etc. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
|
| One of Us |
And one day you might just luck out and shoot a 200yd 1/2" group. Good luck.  | |||
|
| new member |
OK! OK! I think you mist the point Maybe it was to vague. And maybe I shouldn’t have Said ½ in at 2 hundred but I would be happy with 1â€. NO I haven’t had a custom gun built but I guess if I can get my factory rifle to shoot sub ½ inch groups why would I won’t to spend the money on a custom gun. Alright, I will totally agree with you on the 1/2in at 200 hundred is pushing it a bit but I do won’t something that will consistently shoot a small oval hole a hundred yards. I’m not happy with 1†at a hundred and for the prairie dog I don’t want to shoot hundreds of rounds at three or four hundred yards and only hit one pdog either. The real question was WHAT WOULD YOU USE ON A CUSTOM BUILT RIFLE (Maybe I didn’t make that clear) Barrel type Shilens Wilson Krieg, Triger, Jewel , timmeny, Sharp shooter. Stock McMillain, barrel length Maybe even the action, even though I already have a 700 rem. I will look up a gunsmith to see what they come up with. But listening to you guys I don’t think it will be worth it. It sound like my Factory 22-250 will out shoot most custom rifle anyway and my 243 shoots almost as well as my 250 not to mention any of my other rifles. I had thought about doing some work to my AR but there probably isn’t anything that will help it either as it shoots less that 1†10 shot groups at a hundred with some less than ½ in some 5 shot groups. And I thought someone could give me some good advice. I guess those of you that just had a bunch of *&^* to say don’t know anymore than I do, probably just a bunch of computer cowboys anyway. For the rest thanks for some it sight. I’ll look for a good smith and do some more reading. Hope I didn’t hurt anyone’s feelings | |||
|
| One of Us |
Greg , You didn't hurt my feelings. I think if you had started your thread a little differently you would have received a better response. I think that if you stick around you will find that a great deal of us burn a tremendous amounts of powder and some of us are serious competition shooters. Now that being said, I would sell the 22-250 or the 700 and buy a Stiller predator. They have a Remington footprint and will use Remington stocks. The money for your Remington and the money you save by not having to blueprint it will buy a Predator. On sale now for $695. It comes with a trigger guard and will accept Remington type triggers. I would use a Jewel or a Shilen. I would use a Kreiger or Shilen barrel. McMillan has a fine stock. I will second Mike Bryant as a smith. He has a lot of experience, a lot of formal schooling, very honest, and only builds BR or accurate rifles. www.bryantcustom.com . You will then have a custom rifle capable of small groups at 100 yds, if the wind ain't blowing much and your load is right. It seems that your abilities are up to the task. Butch www.shadetreeea.com | |||
|
| one of us |
Greg, Key issue is having a rifle that will group like you want everytime. That way if you do your job then you have a hit. If haven't been to Benchrest you might check there. http://www.benchrest.com Most of the tricks they use help a varmint shooter as well. You also might consider a used benchrest. Last years rifle might make a great varmint shooter. There are numerous high quality smith listed. I also had a buddy that picked up a great deal here. http://www.benchrest.com/shooterscorner/ For the accuracy you are after I agree with butch. You would be money ahead starting with a custom quality action than spending the money to try and get a 700 to that point. Many great shooters used 700s when there weren't anything better. Not many on the line anymore. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think (could be wrong here) but everyone that answered you has had multiple custom guns built. Everyone that answered you has either competed in some sort of formal competition, is an estblished gunsmith, or has been formally trained. Yeah, you did not get a very warm greeting. I think you missed the point being made. The point is for a gun to agg even half moa. That is 5, five shot groups, in a row. You need more than a factory or even a custom gun. Your loads have to be exact, and perfectly tuned. There has to be consistancy. rifle and shooter acting as one. You need to be able to read the wind. What is going on at the bench is not going on at 50 100 175 and so on. The wind could be blowing in three different directions at different velocitys. Sighting adjustments have to be made to compensate There is a reason for several classes in Bench Rest. I refer to that becuase you are talking extreme accuracy. A heavier gun will not show shooter error as much as a light one. Same with a light trigger, like 2ozs with zero creep and no overtravel. The stock has to ride the bags so that it does not hang up. A rifle with a flat 3 inch wide fore end will not cant or twist on recoil. Rests have rifle stops for a reason. That is so the gun is at the exact same place on the bags everytime. The extreme accuracy guys are not shooting stock 700s in competition. Why becasue they need tight tollerences for consistancy. Go to a club match and check it out. No doubt there will be someone that will let you take a few shoots from a custom rig. You will quickly see the difference. Go lurk on 6BR and Bench Rest Central. Send Eddie Haren a PM, he builds rifles, hangs out here. He and his wife take turns winning the Maryland States every year in Hunter Class. I only sugggest him becuase I have met him face to face and is about the nicest guy out there. There a bunch of other ones, alot post here. All but one and one in the works of my guns are worked over Remingtons. I like them, they are not the best out there by far. Your question was kinda vague. If I had your idea in mind, I would do the following. Sell your 700. The price you can get for the 700 plus what it will cost to get it trued, meaning bushings on the bolt. Race ways and lugs recut and made straight. Threads single pointed action face trued, runs close to $400. You can get 400 + for your 700. You can get a Stiller Predator action for around 7 hundred and some change. That is a custom action all ready to go. A trued up customized 700 is a great action, but at the end of the day it is still a Remington and you will never get your money out of it. Custom actions BAT, Stiller Nesika, Stolle hold their value. Hang a Jewell trigger on it. The three barrels to beat right now are Shilen Kreiger and Hart on the BR circut. There are a bunch of good ones. I have Hart Pac-Nor and Liljas right now and am very pleased with them all, clean a custom barrel and you will hate your factory barrels forever. I would probably use a McMillan stock with heavy fill, probably an A5, My taste might not be yours. Same again a bunch of good ones out there, make sure it fits perfectly. I would look at either a 6BR or a 6.5BR, they will buck the wind decent and the is a hugh selection of bullets and loading data. I would shoot for a 12 pound plus rifle. Buy the best glass you can afford. 6-24 or 8-32 with paralex adjustment and target turrets. Buy the best brass money can buy, learn to turn necks and prep brass. Get a good front rest and rear bag. Search out a BR smith. Check the BR shoots most have an equipment log and who built the gun in the results. They are posted on line and in Precision Shooting. Then comes the fun part. Shoot anytime you have the chance in any conditions. Do so alot. Practice. If you can not shoot MOA then the best rifle will not make the man. Your load will react to temparatures. I have two guns, starting work on a third. That have a winter load and a summer load. Winter load is for fur. Summer load is for accuracy and Ground hogs. I beleive this is my longest post to date on any forum. I hope this helped you. Butch you were posting at the same time. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I like the 25 WSSM but that won't work on your Remington action. So, build a .243 Winchester AI and set barrel twist to handle 55 grain Ballistic Tips. | |||
|
| new member |
Many THANKS to you. I now have a good starting point and some places to look. I am relatively new at the accuracy issue and getting started a little late in the game. I’ve been hand loading off and on for 30years. About 5 years ago I started going west shooting pds and I like those shots 4 to 5 hundred yards and was looking for the most accurate rifle I could come up with. I didn’t want just a mediocre rifle that’s why I came to you guys. I don’t care if it looks pretty I just want it to shoot straight. I do know about wind, mirage even at moderate ranges and I read some where about thermal heat at extreme ranges 1000 yard shooting. But what I know about it you could put in the bottom of a thimble and it wouldn’t cover the bottom. I’d like to say thanks again even though I think I need to get a lot more education in what it will take to get the kind of accuracy I want. The loading’s not a problem I spend many hour at the range with different bullets, powder, seating depth and such to get the best accuracy that I can out of each rifle. I do have one other question. Does anyone use a flash hole or a primer pocket uni-former? I thought this would help with accuracy but if it did it was so minimal I didn’t really notice. I will probably do the work on all new cases I get If nothing else, just to make me think I did something to improve the accuracy. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Iuse to do it, but haven't in years. Good Lupua brass makes it unnecessary. Butch | |||
|
| One of Us |
Greg, whether it's flash holes, primer pockets, seating depth, the position of the rest under the forearm, the way you lock in and grip the gun, your breathing etc., consistency is about making the perfect shot and then repeating it. Everything you do from sorting your brass to touching the trigger has to be exact if you want consistent long range accuracy. This applies to hunting as well as competition. Your best groups come from being consistent. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
|
| one of us |
I use both. I use the flash hole tool out of principle. It is a small step done only once in the lifetime of a case, so the effort is fairly minimal. Does it help?? To be honest, I don't KNOW. There are lots of little steps involved in reloading, and it is sometimes difficult to say that this step or that is the deciding factor in accuracy. On the other hand, when I aspired to accurate reloading, I adopted an entire process with many steps, one of which was flash hole uniforming. The process worked (at least compared to my previous results), so I have pretty much stuck with the process as a whole. Btw, be aware that PPC cases (and others) will need a different flash hole tool than the standard. Just in case you decide a PPC is the bee's knees for accurate PD shooting... As far as the primer pocket uniformer is concerned, I'm a bit more leery. Occasionally one runs into brass where primer pockets are either too tight or too shallow to consistently seat the primers. In this case I use the uniformer. I have, however, also run into situations where I suspect the use of the uniformer may have contributed to loose primer pockets (using Federal .223 Gold Match brass is one such example). That means I have become a bit leery of always using the uniformer, but I do use it when I find the situation calls for it. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
|
| One of Us |
IMO every little detail adds up to more consistency which equals improved accuracy. I flash hole deburr and primer pocket uniform along with sorting by weight. I use the RCBS Power Case Prep Station. I have recently used the Nosler Custom brass which is sorted by weight with case prep complete and thought it was outstanding. | |||
|
| One of Us |
flash hole deburring and primer pocket uniforming (at least in my opinion) are waste of time. There are a lot of things folks do in reloading that add little to no value solely in the name of Uniformity. I find many of these things a pure wast of time to the hunter and varminter. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
Greg an easy way to get into this easy might be a Cooper in 6PPC. Get some Wilson hand dies and N-133. Gun will most likely shoot better than alot of shooters are capable of. It will not break the bank. If you decide to sell it you will at least break even. A varmiter can be had for around $1500 new. I uniform primer pockets and debur flash holes becuase it makes me feel better. I doubt it does much, if anything but it does not hurt either. Laupua and Norma brass are awesome. I full length size and reload. Nothing else needed with the premium cases. I have had fantastic luck with Win 222 stuff. Last 500 I bought was better than then last 500 Laupua I bought. | |||
|
| one of us |
vapodog I agree a lot of those little steps are a waste of time. A lot of people will argue the point but I was recently reading about the 1000 yd shooters and what they do and it differs quite a bit. One of the winners says he has found NO value in weighing brass so he does waste time doing it. That confirms my feelings about weighing brass must be correct. I shoot little groups without weighing brass. Why can't anybody else? | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey Dwight, Perhaps he is pulling a clinton, or perhaps he has "someone else" do the weight sorting, or he might be telling the truth. If you were winning the Matches, winning money, or winning something of value to you..., would you freely tell the competition all your tricks of the trade? Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills. | |||
|
| one of us |
| |||
|
| one of us |
Hey Dwight, When you can shoot in the 2s, you are doing just fine. That would easily win against my best groups. Best of luck to you. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Generally, my rifles have best groups 1/2 the size of average and worst groups Twice the size of average. My best group ever was 0.45" 5 shot at 100m = 0.4moa I leaned from Seafire's posts that 50 yard groups can have more accuracy information than 100 yard groups. I now only shoot at 100 yards if the wind is 5 mph or less. When the 100 yard groups are twice the size of the 50 yard groups, then there is no wind. My Quickload [Quicktarget] only goes down to 1 mph wind, and at 1 mile per hour, the deflection is 0.2" at 100 yards and 1.1" at 200 yards. What does it all mean? 1/2" at 200 yards will not be easy with a 0.5 mph wind. | |||
|
one of us |
Are you sure of those numbers as JBM gives .1" at 100 and .3" at 200 for the average 22-250 bullet in a 1 mph wind. Jim Please be an ethical PD hunter, always practice shoot and release!! Praying for all the brave souls standing in harms way. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey tnekkcc, Could you provide a link to this "information"? If not, perhaps you could enlighten me on the "Value" of 50yd groups for people who plan to Hunt/Shoot beyond that distance. Feel free to PM me. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills - beyond 50yds. | |||
|
One of Us |
I would be interested to hear your thoghts about why it does not do it consistently? To bring the gun to 1/4 inch at 100, have a competent smith install a premium barrel and bed it properly in a good stock. Add high x opticks, and then the rest is really up to you. Reading about benchrestshooting and lots of shooting will take you a lot closer to your goal than any fancy loading tricks. Good luck! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
|
| One of Us |
The error due to wind: The load I will hunt with tomorrow is 33 gr Vmax 15 gr Blue Dot, 3600 fps. Per the latest revision of Quickload and Quicktarget V3.2 In a 15 mph side wind, the deflection is: 0.9moa at 50 yards 3.7 moa at 100 yards 8.02 moa at 200 yards In a 1 mph side wind, the deflection is: 0.11 moa at 50 yards 0.23 moa at 100 yards 1.1 moa at 200 yards I think it is safe to say that we shoot groups to check accuracy with winds somewhere between 1 mph and 15 mph. The gusty winds where I live to not permit any kind of group when there is wind. So if the wind is 5 mph and gusty, I only shoot at 50 yards, where I can get some real information about the gun and load. The big lousy group at 100 yards tells me nothing, other that the wind is blowing. | |||
|
| one of us |
tnekkcc, OK, would you please tell me what round you are shooting so I can make sure I don't get anywhere near something that has a muzzle velocity of 3600 fps and a deflection of 8 moa at 200 yds in a 15 mph wind?? Jim Please be an ethical PD hunter, always practice shoot and release!! Praying for all the brave souls standing in harms way. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey tnekkcc, Thank you. I'm sending you a PM. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing building a custom pdog shooter
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia