Well, here's a kind of 'what would you do?' kind of topic for you.

Recently traded into a Ruger 77MkII V/T in .22-250 Rem. Was planning on having it rechambered to .22-250AI or .22 BR depending on what the gunsmith had available. I took it out to the range a couple of times, and the second time the gun blew up midways thru the range session. Blew the magazine floorplate out (relief path for gas thru the bolt cutouts), and spit some primer parts into my hand and face near the back of the bolt. Nerve rattling to say the least. Everything considered, including that there were two separate kinds of ammo involved, and all primers were extremely flat, and the cases bulged above the web (didn't look that close initially since it was factory ammo in a factory gun), I figure that whatever the problem is is in the chamber as near as I (and several other fellows at the gunstore) can figure.

So at this point I've talked to Ruger, and can send the gun back for evaluation, but am wondering if it is worth it. Since I intend to have the chamber either reamed out to a .22-250AI or else have the threads cut off and the barrel rechambered to .22 BR, that problem is going to be non-existent in effect. Everything else has gon e back together w/o a hitch. Only concern I guess is any possible damage to the bolt face (it has a healthy brass outline of a primer on it!)

I'm not wild about sending the gun to Ruger, and paying for shipping and insurance at least one way, w/ no idea if anything is going to be done, etc. and since I'm planning on a rechamber anyway...

TIA,

Monte

I have a Mark x that has a pitted bolt face from a primer failure. Cleaned it up to make sure there were no snags and rebarreled it to 243. I would clean the bolt face and check the lugs for set back, if the receiver checks out ok, then decide what you want to do.
I would like to know why the chamber was out of spec, if that is what happened.
Ruger would more than likely replace the rifle if it was a factory flaw, and maybe if it wasnt, be ready to wait a while to get it back.
I would also contact the original owner and start asking some questions.
As for using the original barrel, I would probably pass and buy a new barrel.

Not a lot to add other than I second the vote for a new barrel. If you're gonna go to a new caliber anyway, go all the way. You're kinda throwing money down the tube(no pun intended)by using a factory barrel.

Live a little. If it takes a little longer to scrape up the dough for the new barrel, so be it. You'll be happier in the longrun. FWIW.

Monte,

Before you do anything else with this weapon, you should have the receiver checked to make sure that it is structurally sound.

Ruger would be the obvious folks to perform this assessment since it's their baby. You might contact Ruger and ask them what their policy is with regards to inspecting a damaged weapon and if they will return it to you upon request, untouched. Get them to fax this to you in writing before shipping it to them.

If factory ammo was involved and they request having a look at it, take pictures, make notes, get expert witnesses to verify what you're sending back and get signatures. If you have fired factory cases which show high pressure signs, Send them good digital pictures, and keep hold of the originals.

A few years back, I sent a weapon and some ammo to Olin for an exam because one of their factory rounds blew a weapon to pieces. I held back some of the fired cases that showed excess pressure as well as the remaining unfired stuff. Olin misplaced what I had sent them, and I had to threaten serious damages through an attorney just to get the weapon back. So be very carefull...

Good luck,

Malm

Malm,

Thanks for the reply. At a gut level, I suspect there's not much structurally wrong w/ the gun, but I don't have any reference specs to go comparing to to check it myself, which is why I'm still seriously considering sending it to Ruger.

I had discussed whether or not to send just pictures or actual cases along w/ the gun w/ the folks at the gun shop. I have enough of the non-catastrophic-failure ones to be able to send one or two of each type and still have a few extras for future use. I am a bit hesitant to send off the one good piece of evidence (the severely damaged case) w/ no guarantee of getting it back, but likewise, I'm guessing that I'll get a phone call about needing the case in question, not just pictures, to assess the problem if I *don't* send the physical case.

Part of the reason I want to make sure I can get the original case back is so that if Ruger ends up pointing the finger back at Olin somehow, I have something to use as evidence to send to Olin. I'm not necessarily out to hang someone or bleed someone dry, but if I have to go to the time and trouble of sending this d@mn thing off and doing w/ no varmint caliber gun for an undefined period, I *do* expect a definitive answer as to who or what is responsible!

And as to the final issue, I've heard enough horror stories of people sending in firearms that had a problem, and then spending months, sometimes almost years, getting any satisfaction from the manufacturer, even if it is just getting back the gun in the original form. Hence my reluctance to send my gun clear across the country w/ no more assurance than 'we have to look at it before we can say what we can/will do' and no guarantees when it will be back.

Arrrggh!

Monte

I had some Win 454 ammo that split a bunch of the cases. I emailed them, they sent a RMA# and I sent it back for them to check. They sent me some Winchester Bucks to cover more than the price of the ammo. It only took about 3 weeks for everything.

I'd say keep the bulged case and half the ammo. Then send the gun back with some ammo and send some ammo to Olin and see what each one will do. Also send pics of your personal damage. Maybe they will volunteer enough to complete your varmit project.

Not a bad idea! The sending the ammo and cases thing, I mean. Fortunately my 'personal damage' assessment was pretty minimal. Couple of pieces make about pen tip holes in the cheek area, and 3 or 4 little holes w/ debris and some light powder burns on the thumb. Sadly, I've hurt myself worse falling down in a gravel driveway Definitely an eye-opener, though.

Thanks,

Monte

Remington has been the only rifle I have sent back for repair. The turn around time was 7 to 8 weeks, JudgeG mite tell you how long it took him, a little longer than mine I think.
I would say Ruger would have about the same turn around time. I dont know for sure, seem's everyone's case is different.
I see some options,

ship it to Ruger first, wait the response, see if the action is ok, or if you will be getting a new rifle. If the receiver is ok but Ruger wont replace it, your out the cost of shipping and some time, but right back to were you started, wanting to rechamber or rebarrel.

Ruger might also say the receiver is trashed and there not responsable for replacement. (ouch)

Take it to your smith, have him check over the receiver, take his word that it is ok for rebarreling, and still wait for the work to be done.

Patience is all you can ask for, with your situation

[ 09-10-2003, 06:43: Message edited by: gsp ]

I would not have a problem with sending it back to Ruger I have always had good luck with them. I would ask them what they are going to do if the rifle is at fault.

If you are going to pay to rechamber, pay for a new barrel as well. Sounds like a bad round, although it could be the rifle. There is lots of good advise about returning the gun to ruger and signatures and pictures. I would be a little nervous about the stress the action has seen. There could be invisible fractures or squashed locking lugs. Go to a gunsmith and have the headspace checked. That could be a small indication of the situation. If the headspace is off, Then send it to Ruger for a replacement. Don't tell thel you want to rebarrel it. They might think you messed it up with handloads.

What's driving me batty (short trip, I know) is that I can't for the life of me envision what in the world could be wrong w/ the gun to cause the sequences involved: Original owner (friend at work, so I think he's being straight w/ me) buys NIB in Cali, shoots mostly Winchester 'white box' Varmint Pack w/ 45gr JHP until he accumulates enough brass to start handloading. Moves up here (central Washington) and continues shooting w/ no problems). We traded 'cuz he wanted a .223 for some higher volume stuff, and he'd never had one. Same thing for me w/ the .22-250; never had one, and I don't shoot much high volume anymore w/ it.

Suddenly I get the gun, put 15rds of one kind of Winchester ammo, the 'premium' 50gr Ballistic Silvertip w/ nickel plated cases, and 9 rounds of the same kind of factory ammo he'd been shooting in it, the Winchester 'white box' stuff. Round 10 blows up in my face. Looking back, all 25 rounds had extremely flat primers. The ammo had been purchased at two different dealers, on different days.

I just can't envision in my mind what went wrong. Too much head space? Factory chambers have that all the time, and I figure I would have seen a case head separation first. Too little head space? Thought that's why they F/L size, and then some, factory rounds. Plus, I would have thought I would noticed the rounds chambering hard as they bottomed out on the shoulder. Some people have mentioned a cockeyed chamber, but I think that would have came to light before this. Not sure either how two completely different lots of ammunition, probably off of two different production lines, could both be so overpressure?

Anybody got any other ideas to toss out there?

Thanks,

Monte

Monte,

Without seeing the remains of the brass in question or being able to examine the weapon, anything posted would be merely a guess. The problem you describe could be the result of excess headspace, too hot a load, weak brass or structural failure of the action. That's why it's important to document what you can and have someone knowledgeable look at it.

Good luck,

Malm

Ok, here's an update: Took some pictures, and am waiting for the film to be processed. I had a local gunsmith take a look at the gun. His shop is literally about 50ft from L.E. Wilson Tool & Die (i.e. makers of Wilson trimmers, benchrest dies, case gages, etc.), so he borrowed a No-Go gauge from them, and the bolt closed easily on it. Not good. Then we took some of the fired brass, and plunked it into one of their cartridge headspace gauges, the kind that you stick the case in, and there is a small 0.005" recess machined in the top of the gauge. If the case head is below the recess, its supposed to be under minimum SAAMI specs, and if it sticks up above the top of the gauge, its too big.

Well, the case stuck up enough that we could see (using a steel rule as a straight edge) daylight, so it was at least several thousandths more headspace than the max according the gauge. We had gone down to Wilson's shop for this part, and I got a chance to look in a book that I believe was the SAAMI spec dimension book, and what I got for a number was 1.5749".

I came home, searched around the internet a bit, and all I could find listing dimensions was Forster's page listing dimensions for their Go/No-Go/Field gauges, and they gave the following values: 1.574", 1.579", and 1.583" So the 'minimum' dimension I'm looking at is 1.574" or so, and if the cases were big enough that the bolt closes on a No-Go gauge and the brass sticks out of a headspace gauge, they should be *at least* 1.579", right?

Well, that's where I'm getting corn-fused again. I dug up my Stoney Point headspace gauge, looked up the proper insert for a .22-250, and just for $hit$ and giggles, measured one of the fired cases. The case measure 1.570". *under* minimum headspace. Measured *all the fired cases. Pretty much all were btwn 1.568 and 1.570". The unfired cases were at 1.562" or so. Just to check that my Mitutoyo digital calipers weren't going wonky on me, I changed inserts, re-zero'd the calipers, and measured my .308 Win cases. Dead on 1.628-1.629", which is right where they were supposed to be. So I don't *think* my calipers are the problem here.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if I start out w/ a case w/ headspace dimensions measuring about 1.562" or so, and the bolt closes on a No-Go gauge (1.579" or better), the fired cases should come out a lot closer to 1.58x than 1.570", right? And how does it work out that I'm reading 1.570" headspace on a fired case that sticks out of a Wilson headspace gauge (supposedly 1.579" dimension)??!!??

Something is not adding up here, but I'm not sure what...

Monte

Send the gun back to Ruger. I am sure they would be interested, and at the minimum would check the metalurgy. With luck, you'll get a new gun.

I wouldn't waste the $ fixing that dog. Personaly, I think it's a lemon, and it has already taken a beating guns aren't normally subjected to. I've owned a dozen Rugers over the years, loaded ammo for them and tortured the varminters: I can tell you, they are tough. If you had problems from the start, I'd find another candidate for customizing.

Oh, it's most definitely going back to Ruger at this point.

I'm just bewildered as to what is going on w/ the headspace indications (bolt closes on a NO-GO gauge, case sticks out of a headspace gauge, but the cases measure undersized... Kind of wonder if my Stoney Point headspace insert is at fault here.), and there is still the issue of even if the headspace is excessive, that's normally *not* something to cause the primer to blow out like that. The real mystery question is what did precipitate the round blowing up? Excess headspace and then a warm factory round just put it over the edge, or what?

Once the pictures are developed in a day or so, I'll pack up the gun and some pictures and some fired brass and a nice long letter to Ruger w/ the specifics, and let them figure it out, as I have no idea at this point. I'll try to get the pictures online (getting the pictures on CD as well) and post a link to them for those who are interested.

Monte

[ 09-17-2003, 08:59: Message edited by: milanuk ]

milanuk: First off, I'm not a gunsmith but let me relate what happened to me with a Ruger .257 Rob.,mod. 77 (old style w/ tang safety). I had the rifle rebarreled to .257 Ackley Imp. When we got the rifle back from Kreiger in the white, I was anxious to start fireforming cases and condition the barrel. As I recall, I was using around 44 grs. of H-414 with a 100 gr. Horn. bullet, a load listed in the Hodgdon manual. I encountered no problems. Several months later, we sent the rifle out to be blued and I proceded to continue my fireforming technique upon its return. I cleaned the rifle then took 5 cartridges out of the box from the previous fireforming loading sessions. Upon firing the first round, I noticed a split case longitudinally in front of the head. Stupid me, I fired 2 more before I felt some blow back against my cheek. These were new, unfired cases and the powder charge was weighed and no magnum primers. The last round locked up the bolt but I managed to get it opened. I found the last round had completely blown the primer out and there was melted brass all over the bolt face. At first, I thought the people that did the bluing had gotten some in the barrel & I hadn't taken it out when cleaning. We took the bolt & receiver to a shop for magnafluxing - no damage. We then sent the entire rifle back to Kreiger for them to check out. Everything was fine. My smith called Hodgdon & they said that even though H-414 was listed in the book, it wasn't the best powder to use for a .257. we were also told to check the powder for red dust or a sour smelling oder. I had 2 cans of powder, one was opened, the other, new & unopened. I had purchased both within approx. 2 months of each other. The opened one showed no evidence of red dust but smelled very sour. Hodgdon's also told us that it was possible for powder to deteriorate over time so much that the bullet could actually become "glued" to the case wall causing excessive pressure. Since then, I've changed my fireforming methods and have had no problems. We threw out both cans of H-414 & I don't use it any more. Sorry for the long diatribe but wanted to relate my experience. Maybe the powder in one of the boxes of cartridges has deteriorated. Good luck. Bear in Fairbanks

[ 09-17-2003, 22:06: Message edited by: Bear in Fairbanks ]