I'm helping a friend put together a parts bin hunting rifle on a Mauser 98 action. We swapped out the military trigger for a Bold, and now the bolt is very finicky about rotating home. It seems like the new trigger sear is holding it back just far enough that the plunger on the left side of the shroud will not completely clear the cutout in the back of the bolt. With some wiggling and a lot of forward pressure you can get it to unstick, but it is inconsistent enough to be unsatisfactory for field use.

I have tried several bolts in the same action with no problems, and have swapped this bolt into another rifle and had things work just fine. I even tried swapping out the cocking piece for another one so see if I could achieve a more favorable tolerance stackup, but this did not solve things.

I'm looking for ideas on the best remedy. I could keep swapping parts, but would really like to use this bolt and action combination. It was fine with the military trigger, so I'm thinking with some adjusting we could fix this. My thoughts included removing some metal from the cocking piece to allow it to come further forward, or removing a little from the rear of the bolt body, and/or lightly beveling the half moon cutout where the bold shroud plunger engages to give it a little clearance.

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions? Thanks.

Sounds like the trigger sear (sticks up through the cutout in the action) aint where it's s'possed to be...

See if you have the same trouble if you put just a little squeeze on the trigger when you work the bolt (easier said than done) - let us know what happens.

A Timney trigger would be a better choice, IMHO.

Some triggers don't like to work using the military cocking piece. The cocking piece allows the sear to try and engage. If you have a piece with the flat bottom try that.

quote:

ramrod340

+1

I got a coffee and came back to say the same thing ramrod340 said. He's one qwafty, speedy fawker! LOL

Already had my in hand.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Already had my in hand.

CHEATERERER !

Nope just have a within reach from breakfast until 2:00 PM

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Nope just have a within reach from breakfast until 2:00 PM

Ahhh, yer one of those people that suffers from incurable, unmentionable, unpredictable, insufferable NAP-ATTACKS are yah? Try mocha's. Mixing caffeine, cocoa and sugar is probably a bad thingy, so it has to be good thingy!

I'm not totally familiar with the reason for the difference in the bottom shape of military vs commercial cocking pieces, but I really don't see how that could have been it. The flat bottom is just setting there in its groove, well aft of the interface between sear and trigger. Whether it is flat or concave like the military ones it should make no difference to closing the bolt...(?)

Also, all the military bolts I tried in this receiver worked just fine. And this bolt worked just fine in another rifle with the same exact trigger. No, there was something unique about this particular combination. I tried multiple combinations of parts and just about all of them worked except for this exact blend of parts.

Anyway, I have fixed the problem... I tested a military bolt that worked. I then unscrewed the shroud assembly from that bold and screwed it into the bolt body of the problem rifle. That too worked, but when I tried the firing pin and cocking piece with the problem rifle shroud it stopped working. I wanted to use the problem shroud instead of the military one because it has a low scope safety. Comparing the two side by side I noticed that the plungers were ground to slightly different profiles. I swapped that plunger out and voila!

Again I think the tolerance stack was working against me and I just needed that little bit of different bevel to allow the plunger to release and unlock the bolt and let it rotate.

Now on to the second problem: Again, just with this trigger, just in this action, just with this bolt, the last half of the bolt lift is very stiff. If seems to be getting some interference in the cocking. It is not rough, like lapping would help. It does not seem be be galling like the cam is soft. It seems to be jamming up. Any ideas?

Firing pin slightly bent causing the cocking piece to bind in the shroud? Any burrs or rough machining marks in the shroud? If safety has been changed might be some inference. Have had all 3 of these experiences. Can you put some machinist blue on the parts to see where the contact is? Lapping might be a solution.

I never drank coffee in my life; I heard it is addictive.
I only fit Bold triggers to my Mauser builds;
I have had this same issue many times; the sear sometimes is not dropping from the trigger to let the cocking piece over it when cocking, so you need to adjust that interface a bit by using the trigger adjusting screws.
If you get another bolt sleeve lock that interferes; just remove it and see; they serve no purpose unless you have use a bolt sleeve safety; . The cocking piece is held onto the bolt in a notch in normal operation just like any other thumb/trigger safety bolt action. If you want to use that sleeve, and lock, you can grind the step on the lock so it releases earlier.
It's definitely not a bent firing pin, burrs, or anything like that.
And what Ram said is valid as usual; the flat bottom cocking piece will prevent the trigger from resetting too early and the trigger sear won't interfere with cocking, like it can with a notched cocking piece.

For some strange reason I thought a "Bold" trigger was a Huber Concepts replacement 2-stage trigger. I figured it was sticking up too high through the trigger cutout and binding things up. Sorry for the Alzheimer's...

DPCD, why do you prefer Bold triggers in your Mausers?

Cost.
They do stick up high, but they also have to depress so the cocking piece can move back when you are cocking; that is what causes the hard bolt opening. I will look at the height of the sear; I have 2 of them in the shop now.

OK, I think Dpcd has got it...

It makes sense that the sear is popping up into the notch of the cocking piece and resetting itself, then interferring as the front part attempts to ramp up and over. In fact, this is exactly how it feels; it gets very hard at the last half, then pops into battery.

Still, it seems like this ought to be a consistent problem with this trigger and military cocking pieces, but that is clearly not the case. Maybe tolerances again? I have a couple more I could try I guess... Does anyone have a commercial flat bottomed cocking piece they'd be willing to sell or trade?

Alternately, are there instructions available for making the needed trigger adjustments?

The instructions come with the triggers on adjustments. Honestly I just adjust the engagement and overtravel screws until it works, I am embarrassed to say that.
Now, back to your bolt shroud lock issue, that has nothing to do with the trigger; that is just an OEM parts tolerance stack up.

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It makes sense that the sear is popping up into the notch of the cocking piece and resetting itself

I'm sorry I didn't explain it better in my first post. I'll see if I have a cocking piece but I "THINK" the only extra I have is a speedloc.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
I'm sorry I didn't explain it better in my first post. I'll see if I have a cocking piece but I "THINK" the only extra I have is a speedloc.

In hindsight, for the second question, (regarding the problem cocking) your post makes perfect sense. I just wasn't seeing it being a factor in the problem closing the bolt I described in the OP. You must have been anticipating my next question!

The two issues aren't related.
I should have said, instead of the trigger sear rising too high, in effect, it is actually not high enough. Or put another way, the cocking piece is too high, not pushing the sear down whilst you are withdrawing the bolt, and the trigger has already re-set, thusly making the rearward travel of the bolt hard. It is an issue of slop and tolerance stackup in all the parts involved. As Ram already said.

quote:

In hindsight, for the second question, (regarding the problem cocking) your post makes perfect sense. I just wasn't seeing it being a factor in the problem closing the bolt I described in the OP. You must have been anticipating my next question!

That would be an old man reading your OP and not fully taking the time to "understand" but jumping to his own experience. Should have taken the time to go get that and let Speerchucker handle it.

I keep shaking my head about why people think Mausers are so f***ing wonderful---out of the last 10 rifle fails I have seen, 9 were Mauser's.

Ok, I feel that is not a valid conclusion, since, when you introduce an after market modification, in this case a trigger, then you can't fault the Original Mauser design; which is perfect, if there is an issue. Take an un-modified Mauser; and they are totally reliable. But we are always trying to make sporters out of them and make them "better"; nothing we do to them makes them better; just more like an American sporter.

I agree with DPCD. Nothing about this temporary pause in the build process comes anywhere close to meeting the definition of a "failure"...

And how many of those 9 failures were due to a part change or modification of some sort? How many of those actions were unmodified? Were any of those failures with a pre-1898 Mauser? I am very curious. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
I keep shaking my head about why people think Mausers are so f***ing wonderful---out of the last 10 rifle fails I have seen, 9 were Mauser's.

Exactly right,
Mausers are f'ing wonderful. And so are Springfields, Enfields, Model 70s and most other rifle actions. I like, and use, them all. If you want something you absolutely can't blow up, use a Mosin Nagant.
Hell, the only reason I build so many rifles on Mauser actions is they are cheap; if I had $1000 to spend on every action I use, I would only use Winchester Model 70s, preferably pre-war. But I don't so I use the Mausers I got for less than $100.

If the sear appears to be holding the cocking piece back too far (and it sounds like this is the case) I would measure the distance from the mounting hole in the housing to the face of the sear and compare this to the measurement from the pivot hole to the face of the sear on the original trigger. If it is greater, I would stone the sear so that the measurements are the same.
I have always been an advocate of using the original trigger, well tuned, if you want a seriously reliable hunting rifle. Well set up, it can be a decent three pound trigger and just about CANNOT fail. All after market triggers compromise this reliability to a certain extent.
Sean Russell's comment seems to be one of those that come out of left field from time to time. It is either BS or indicative of a lack of experience. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
If the sear appears to be holding the cocking piece back too far (and it sounds like this is the case) I would measure the distance from the mounting hole in the housing to the face of the sear and compare this to the measurement from the pivot hole to the face of the sear on the original trigger. If it is greater, I would stone the sear so that the measurements are the same.
I have always been an advocate of using the original trigger, well tuned, if you want a seriously reliable hunting rifle. Well set up, it can be a decent three pound trigger and just about CANNOT fail. All after market triggers compromise this reliability to a certain extent.
Sean Russell's comment seems to be one of those that come out of left field from time to time. It is either BS or indicative of a lack of experience. Regards, Bill

Mausers are pretty idiot proof, until an idiot tries to make a different gun out of it.

With my minimal experience, I've hit a few brick walls from just a few thousandths of an inch. My advice, buy a Timney Sportsman. I think your trigger is to blame. Why change other parts that worked fine in the past? Sorry to those who are trying to help. But, sometimes the simple approach is the best.
Wasn't it Einstein who said "I don't need to memorize my sisters phone number". I just look it up in the book.

Bill:
Speaking of original triggers.....I know a guy who used to weld a boss on the front of a Mauser 98 trigger, then drill and tap it. The set screw (must have a snug fit to avoid backing out) was turned in to take up the slack, making a single stage trigger out the original. I didn't hang a pull gage on it. But, the two rifles he showed me were very smooth and crisp and not heavy at all.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
I have always been an advocate of using the original trigger, well tuned, if you want a seriously reliable hunting rifle. Well set up, it can be a decent three pound trigger and just about CANNOT fail. All after market triggers compromise this reliability to a certain extent.
Sean Russell's comment seems to be one of those that come out of left field from time to time. It is either BS or indicative of a lack of experience. Regards, Bill[/QUOTE]

The thing is this: The original, two-stage, trigger was designed the way it was to accomplish two things. First, it allowed for very generous sear engagement so there was virtually no chance of the striker "following dowm". Second, it allowed for a crisp final let-off. Properly set up, the Mauser trigger will be able to use a slightly lighter return spring and careful honing will allow a crisp let-off of from 3 to 3 1/2 pounds. The spring , along with the contact angle, needs to be able to return the trigger to full engagement if the slack is taken up and the shot not taken. I used to reduce overtravel until I came to realize (with some guidance from one who knew more than I) that overtravel was meaningless when firing live ammo. I am such a fan of the simplicity and durability of the original system that I have removed aftermarket triggers from rifles I have bought for myself and retrofitted military parts in their place. I keep the adjustable single stage triggers in case I should sell the rifle to one who is un-enlightened!
Any change made to a Mauser trigger to eliminate the initial take-up reduces sear engagement and compromises the design and it's intent.
One of my more recent projects has been a Model 54 Winchester. The 54 also has a two-stage trigger and it is not a bad one. I am happy to retain this trigger.
I have stopped short of retro-fitting my Model 70's though! Regards, Bill.

Sounds like you're on top of those 2 stagers. Actually advanced would seem more appropriate. Good for you. I wonder sometimes how/if over travel can affect accuracy. I set my Timney's pretty close. Care to opine on that while we're waiting for news from the O.P.?

The advice I got regarding the effect of overtravel came from a friend and customer who is, I suspect, a much better shot than I. He told me he was advised by Jim Cloward (who I KNOW is a much better shot than I)to increase the overtravel on his triggers to improve rapid-fire scores. He backed off the overtravel adjustment to the point it was no longer a factor and it worked. He said his scores in creased significantly. He pointed out that follow-through was follow-through and if there was no contact after the trigger broke, there would be no deflection before the bullet was gone. In addition, he pointed out, the only time you really noticed over-travel was when you dry-fired the rifle. Of course, the benefits of having over-travel are most noticable during rapid-fire or in hunting situations. Not such a big deal in BR although I now ignore the over-travel adjust ment on my BR triggers as well.
When setting up a trigger for a customer, I always set the overtravel tighter because that's what most people want to feel when they test the trigger by dry firing so that is what I give them. I have seen a few triggers which bound up and failed to re-set because the overtravel was set too tight so that is worth watching for as well. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The advice I got regarding the effect of overtravel came from a friend and customer who is, I suspect, a much better shot than I. He told me he was advised by Jim Cloward (who I KNOW is a much better shot than I)to increase the overtravel on his triggers to improve rapid-fire scores. He backed off the overtravel adjustment to the point it was no longer a factor and it worked. He said his scores in creased significantly. He pointed out that follow-through was follow-through and if there was no contact after the trigger broke, there would be no deflection before the bullet was gone. In addition, he pointed out, the only time you really noticed over-travel was when you dry-fired the rifle. Of course, the benefits of having over-travel are most noticable during rapid-fire or in hunting situations. Not such a big deal in BR although I now ignore the over-travel adjust ment on my BR triggers as well.
When setting up a trigger for a customer, I always set the overtravel tighter because that's what most people want to feel when they test the trigger by dry firing so that is what I give them. I have seen a few triggers which bound up and failed to re-set because the overtravel was set too tight so that is worth watching for as well. Regards, Bill

Outstanding post, Bill; outstanding!

Interesting for sure.
I certainly relish the details. Other brands may offer this same feature. But, I do like Timney's because of the hole in the side of the body. One can see what actually happens when adjustments are made.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The advice I got regarding the effect of overtravel came from a friend and customer who is, I suspect, a much better shot than I. He told me he was advised by Jim Cloward (who I KNOW is a much better shot than I)to increase the overtravel on his triggers to improve rapid-fire scores. He backed off the overtravel adjustment to the point it was no longer a factor and it worked. He said his scores in creased significantly. He pointed out that follow-through was follow-through and if there was no contact after the trigger broke, there would be no deflection before the bullet was gone. In addition, he pointed out, the only time you really noticed over-travel was when you dry-fired the rifle. Of course, the benefits of having over-travel are most noticable during rapid-fire or in hunting situations. Not such a big deal in BR although I now ignore the over-travel adjust ment on my BR triggers as well.
When setting up a trigger for a customer, I always set the overtravel tighter because that's what most people want to feel when they test the trigger by dry firing so that is what I give them. I have seen a few triggers which bound up and failed to re-set because the overtravel was set too tight so that is worth watching for as well. Regards, Bill

Bold triggers also have a hole in the side so you can see the adjustments you are making. They are practically identical to Timney in design.

Excellent feature. I had bought a bubba'd Mauser that wasn't converted to a side-swing safety PROPERLY among other things. It was obvious looking at the internal sear what was going on with the cocking piece.