At first glance it might seem this should be in the political forum but since it pertains largely to the gunsmithing trade I put it here.
The question is this:
To what extent do you think Satan was involved in the developement of the Torx screw?
A. Subliminal suggestion. Planting the idea in the head of a human vector.
B. By proxy via the vehicle of demonic posession or
C. By direct invention and patent application under an assumed name?
I ask this after some in depth thought on the subject as a result of a Torx encounter gone bad.
I was sent a rifle to true up the action and rebarrel and decided it was to be today's project. When I removed it from the case I saw the customer had left the scope on. This scope was mounted in Leupold rings and base featuring the aforemention Torx screws. I have had some run-ins with these fasteners before so I approached this part of the job with an attitude that was already veering toward negative.
I started with one of the wrenches that comes with the Leupold bases. I fitted it into the first screw and turned. The screw came loose with a "snap" and was easily removed. Things were looking good and it was with a smile on my face that I put the wrench to the second screw. After winding the wrench aronud for a half turn I had nothing but a twisted wrench for my efforts. The smile was a little strained as I dug out one of those removable bits that fit into a magnetic handle and inserted it into the screw. I gave the bit (and, as it happened, my thumb)a couple of sharp raps with a small hammer then applied some torque with a Chapman ratchet. The bit broke cleanly.
The smile had now become more of a grimace as I dug into my tool box and took out my Snap-On folding Torx set. I warmed up by trying the third screw which came out easily. I returned to screw number two, inserted the wrench and turned. The wrench was turned about 90 degrees and I was applying a fair amount of pressure. The Snap-On tool was twisting but would spring right back when I eased up so I turned harder. I was about to back off when there was another snap and my Snap-On wrench snapped off. Some how the remaining portion of the wrench managed to flip up and open a minor but painful wound on my already tender thumb.
The smile was now only a memory and I would imagine that Mr Hyde would have recognized me as a brother as I picked up the Black and Decker drill and drilled the head off the offending screw. I removed the base and the rest of the screw was easily turned out.
I decided to take a break while my blood pressure subsided and I got to thinking. I don't know what you all think but I'm convinced only the devil himself could have dreamed these screws up. I'm thinking that when my time comes Ol' Satan better hope I don't get assigned to his area 'cause if I do we're going to have something to talk about!
A second and related question would be:
Does Satan have a rectum and how many Torx screws do you think could be packed in there? Regards, Bill.

Bill...I believe Sir it is time for you to step back, kick your dog and have a donut.

Seriously, I have been in situations like this before. Just one example:
Did you know you can install the ring gear on a Caterpillar engine in the Model 12 grader backwards? And it doesn't mention this in the manual. To take it back off you must remove bolts on the bottom, remove the radiator bracket, slide the engine forward to remove the flywheel. Imagine having to do this in a driving freezing rain.
Or: Ingersoll-Rand screw type compressor 1500 CFM powered by a 6-71 Jimmy with that freekin' Roots blower on top (screamer) everytime you start it up it shuts down. You completely tear out the scrubber screens only to find it is a bad circuit board.
Buddy, I feel your pain.

We've been using Torx screws for our fixturing of parts for over ten years, and I have no complaints. In fact, they are far easier to remove and install, and last longer than the allen head cap screw.
I think the one I'd be ready to go postal on is the nucklehead that got a hold of the screws before you did. The fact that you actually broke off a Snap-On torx wrench kinda says it all.

Bill, don't kick the beagle. Not a real dog like a lab, but of course it's not his fault. The donut may be a plan, however.

You've got me racking my brains...would I recognize this rifle? And I did mention the QR bases more or less pemanently attached to a beat up M70 stainless, right?

I will share some VERY hard earned wisdom.

When things appear to be seized tighter than normal....... STOP !!!

Stop, before you break your wrenches.

Stop, before you round off the bolt/screw heads.

Put on a light jacket and take a pleasant drive to your local hardware store and purchase a can of Liquid Wrench / PB Blaster / Kroil, (Pick your poison) and then go home and pour yourself a cold drink while the penetrating oil does it's job.

Then, calmly remove the offending fastener.

The above procedure has been clinically proven (O.K. maybe not clinically) to prevent:
Skin abrasions
Sore muscles
Broken tooling
Fist-sized holes in drywall
Consternation
& Uncontrollable bouts of cursing

The above procedure also tends to make ones nightly prayers much shorter and less embarrassing.

Ford it seems has fallen pray to the evil influences of the devil himself at times.

From time to time they use torx headed bolts to hold the pickup truck box to the frame. A T-55 size I believe. They sure break with a snap when you put the flex bar to them. Not to mention your knuckles end up slamming into the wheel wells too.

Much better than the stupid oval shaped collars they had on the late 70's pickups though that would just spin round and round in the box with no way to hold the head from turning short of welding a nut onto it.

Torx screws simply slow down mans progress.

Like I have said to my friends.......

"If man kind could add up all the time we have sat around waiting for women to get ready to go out we could have cured cancer by now or colinized other planets"

Mark

Maybe this is the reason most 'smiths tell you to take off the scope before you send the rifle in for service.

Bill--

You want me to save some for you??

I refuse to use them.......period. If they show up here they're replaced with heat treated slotted screws.......and the old ones make a satisfying tinkle as they make their way through the diet coke cans to the bottom of the trash barrel.......if I happen to hit it.

Must have been that Loctite stud & bearing mount that was used , instead of the small screw Loctite (red). Seriously though, the scope mount wasn't going to come loose, was it ?????

bowhuntr

[ 02-11-2003, 04:35: Message edited by: bowhuntrrl ]

My late dad owned a tool and die shop that employed up to 34 tool makers. He did aircraft and commercial work.

When something like that happened I still remember the famous words "drill it out". I think it was almost a first down for him!

I break stuff every other time. I don't have his talent at all. I would have tried a soldering iron against the head maybe. Most likely I would have broken them also.

Bill, if it was "satanically inspired" I'd say it wasn't Beelzebub himself, but one of his lesser minion's... Satan's time is more likely spent promoting genocide and such in places like Iraq and Ruwanda, not harassing gunsmith's in British Columbia

Personally, I like Torx screws for scope bases and rings. I do believe that little L-shaped tool that comes with Leupold bases/rings is certainly "of the devil"... I have a collection of them, none of which has ever been used. I use a Torx bit in a nice Craftsman driver. The way the little bugger's work it's no wonder Warne doesn't reccomend using LocTite in conjunction with Torx screws... that's probably where the problem is!

Hoping for your speedy recovery,

Brad

Bill:

I ran across a similar situation on my Model 70 with the front torx screw on the front receiver ring. I had not used loctite, but I twisted off a screwdriver tip and another bit. Then I went out to the garage and retrieved the hand held impact driver. A couple of raps, and the screw came loose.

That said, why did that particular screw get so tight? Could be because it bottomed out on the barrel threads, or since that hole dead ends on the barrel threads any oil on the screw threads became compressed, making things real tight.

Now the torx screws get 15 inch pounds with an adjustable torque screw driver.

Bill, I've adopted the practice of ALWAYS using the Chapman box ratchet with a Chapman bit and tapping the back of the bit with a small brass hammer while applying torque with the box wrench. This seems to work for me, whether attacking Torx or regular socket heads. On occasion I still have to go to the mill and get out the real small two flute endmills, though. But I've never broken a tap! Believe that? Jay

I, for one, appreciate Leupold sending an epoxy stirrer with their rings and mounts.

The problem with Torx screws is that they work too good and too many folks don't know when to stop tightening the damn things.

[ 02-11-2003, 07:58: Message edited by: JMac ]

Bill

Yea verily! Damn right it was Satan who got the patent on those things, but I'm pretty sure manufactoring is left up to the evil minions. Yes, I've snapped one of those infernal things, and thats why when ever I need to undo one that's too tight, I just take it to my local Torxorcist who will Torxorcise it for a small fee. It's kind of fun to watch it's head rotate 3600 degrees before it falls off!

Elmo

An idle mind is the Devil's Workshop

Mr. Leeper:

I feel your pain and I may have an explanation for being able to easily twist out the remaining portion of the screw after the head was drilled off.

In addition to maintaining machines, I also get the privelage of machine disassembly. We use a lot of extruded aluminum for machine frames, and they are held together with steel bolts (1/4-20). Many times I have been unable to remove the bolts, but when the heads are ground off, the rest of the bolt turns out easily. I believe this is caused by using too much torque when tightening the bolts, and since the steel in the bolt is harder than the aluminum in the body, it causes a memory (compression ring). That memory ring acts like a very strong lock washer, thus occasionally causing the bolt to be impossible to remove. When confronted with this, I have been successful using circuit chiller (compressed very cold stuff in a can available at Radio Shack here in the US) to break them free. Heat seems to make it worse. I don't know how cold it was in BC that day, but if it's like MN, leaving it outside for a while probably would have helped.

Also, if a memory ring exists, it is probably a good idea to mill a tiny bit from the bolt head recess (flatten it out) unless the new bolt matches the profile of the old bolt exactly. Otherwise, they may shoot loose if no loc-tite is used.

Ryan

Rick,
No, this is a Rem 700 that is becoming a 30/284.
The real problem with torx fasteners (apart from the fact that you can't just grind a screwdriver to fit) is that it is just too easy to overtighten them. It almost seems as if that little wrench winds up just the right amount to really seat that screw when it gives that final snap. When it comes to holding this is great so the fastener is a triumph from an engineering standpoint but getting it out may be a problem.
In truth I like slotted screws on sporting rifles but can tolerate the allen head guard screws. I'm not liking the Torx at all and will continue to think of Torx fasteners as being diabolic in nature. Regards, Bill.