A colleague of mine is having a bit of a problem with an old Win 70 that his uncle gave him some 20 years ago. It was apparently manufactured in 1941. Here are the associated issues:

1) When it was given to him, it was chambered for 300 Weatherby and he was having BIG problems with extraction. His uncle had built some kind of special tool to remove the [broken] cases that resulted from firing. I asked him if he was absolutely sure he and his uncle had the right chambering for it, and he then brought me a shell for it, which was indeed a 300 Weatherby round.

2) We can't determine the original caliber. No markings on the receiver to indicate original caliber. I found a website which listed the year of manufacture (when the serial number was entered) but not original caliber.

3) A few years ago, he asked a "gunsmith" he knows to rebarrel it to 30-06 thinking that doing so would a) make the rifle would be more affordable to shoot and b) perhaps fix the extraction issue. Apparently my colleague was not aware of the major differences between a 30-06 and 300 Weatherby (such as a belted case). Nonetheless, this gunsmith rebarreled it to 30-06 and then gave it back to my buddy with a warning to never actually shoot it because of headspace issues. I tried to explain all the other potential problems he has with such a change, and now he's really worried (as he should be).

He states that the rifle's fit and finish are otherwise in good state. I've decided to try to help him out by helping him determine what the original caliber was, or an alternative one that might work, and perhaps finding him a quality gunsmith who could rebarrel/rechamber it and give it a good once over. I have not seen the rifle yet myself, but am dying to. I’d hate to see a nice pre-64 go to waste like this.

So my questions are:

Is there a web site I can go to which might tell me the original caliber? Should I just call Winchester?

What other calibers might work? I think 300 Weatherby is based upon a 375 H&H, right?

Does anyone know any competent gunsmiths who might be able to handle this?

Can anyone tell me what the rifle might be worth?

Thanks in advance,

With that boltface he's stuck with one of the magnums. 300 H&H would be an approriate match for a 1941 Model 70 and much easier to shoot than 375 H&H. Otherwise, he'll need a new bolt for 30-06 based cartridges.

A .30-cal in 1941 would have been either 30-06 or ".300 Magnum." The latter would have been the .300 H&H Magnum (no other .300 magnums had been invented yet.)

From there, it's easy to determine which of the two it started life as. The rear bridge of the receiver was either cut out to accomodate the 300 H&H magnum or it was not... in which case it would have been a 30-06.

That assumes that it's the original factory barrel which was rechambered to 300wby. But if that's the case, then the original chambering should be stamped on the barrel - Unless it was turned off and the 300wby stamped on it.

So here are the questions:
1) does the barrel have an integral rear sight base to hold the original sight, i.e.: does it look like it has a donut growing out of it about 6" ahead of the reciever?

If so, that should be the original barrel and should have the original chamber stamped on it.

If not, then someone probably rebarreled it when it was re-chambered.

2) Does the rear bridge of the action have the cut-out for the H&H length cases?

What it sounds like is that a COMPETENT gunsmith should look at the gun and see what's been done to it by a series of gun cranks.

If it was rechambered from 300wby to '06 then the bolt face would have to have been welded up and re-machined for the smaller case head, etc...

As you can see, there are a host of variables in this equation; few of which are known.

DON'T SHOOT IT....

Take it to a COMPETENT gunsmith that can cast the chamber and measure the bolt face, etc...

As it sounds, the rifle is worth about $400.00 which is what the action would be worth to someone who wanted to build another gun on it (assuming that it hasn't been botched as has the barrel.)

A gunsmith who rebarrels a rifle and tells you not to shoot it, is akin to a mechanic rebuilding your engine and then telling you not to start it!

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
A .30-cal in 1941 would have been either 30-06 or ".300 Magnum." The latter would have been the .300 H&H Magnum (no other .300 magnums had been invented yet.)

From there, it's easy to determine which of the two it started life as. The rear bridge of the receiver was either cut out to accomodate the 300 H&H magnum or it was not... in which case it would have been a 30-06.

That assumes that it's the original factory barrel which was rechambered to 300wby. But if that's the case, then the original chambering should be stamped on the barrel - Unless it was turned off and the 300wby stamped on it.

So here are the questions:
1) does the barrel have an integral rear sight base to hold the original sight, i.e.: does it look like it has a donut growing out of it about 6" ahead of the reciever?

If so, that should be the original barrel and should have the original chamber stamped on it.

If not, then someone probably rebarreled it when it was re-chambered.

2) Does the rear bridge of the action have the cut-out for the H&H length cases?

What it sounds like is that a COMPETENT gunsmith should look at the gun and see what's been done to it by a series of gun cranks.

If it was rechambered from 300wby to '06 then the bolt face would have to have been welded up and re-machined for the smaller case head, etc...

As you can see, there are a host of variables in this equation; few of which are known.

DON'T SHOOT IT....

Take it to a COMPETENT gunsmith that can cast the chamber and measure the bolt face, etc...

As it sounds, the rifle is worth about $400.00 which is what the action would be worth to someone who wanted to build another gun on it (assuming that it hasn't been botched as has the barrel.)

The original barrel, and/or the one he was using to shot the 300 weatherby from, are gone. He now has a 30-06 barrel on it. I wish I could see it.

As previously stated if its a 1941 ( prewar ) model 70 it was never factory chambered in a 300 Weatherby. If the fatory barrel is intact (?) it would have been stamped 300 Magnum. The 300 Weatherby was intoduced by Roy W in 1944.

Something I feel is being lost in the translation here, at this point it really doesn't matter. The damage is done.

First I would go to a competent gunsmith. Not a clown that says don't shoot it this is the stuff liability lawyers go to bed and pray about before going to bed.

Get a chamber cast done, once you know what it is; figure out what to do from there. Until that is done, everybody is just guessing.

If it was mine I would start watching e-bay, gunbroker and all the usual suspects and keep my eye open for and original 300 H%H barrel, have it installed, and properly headspaced. The damage to the collector value has been done unfortunately. Another option is once the smith knows what its chambered in is setting the barrel back thread and rechambering. A final option is replacing the tube and starting over.

What has been done to the bolt face is going to dictate cheap fixes on this rifle, if it is still a mag I would leave it that way, if its been welded up to a 06, I would first get a real smith to inspect what has been done, and decide the best corrective action from there.

Don't shoot it, CHAMBER CAST IT FIRST!!!!!!!

The whole thing about the busted cases really has me scratching my head. My buddy says that about 1 out of 2 shell broke off in the chamber (hench the special extraction tool). Why the hell would you shoot it then?

Another point, the round he gave me said "REM 300 Mag" on the bottom. To me, I would take this alone to mean that it is either a 300 Win mag in Rem brass, or possibly a 300 H&H in Rem brass. I don't think that Remington ever put out 300 Weatherby brass, did they? If not, then I'm thinking that his uncle (or someone else) possible made the brass from someother type of cases. It is definetly a 300 Weath round now though. I'll post a picture later. The brass itself looks as thought it has been through hell.

I'm getting the distinct feeling that this gun ogiginally was a .30-06 or .270 and was altered to .300 weatherby much later in life.

The extraction issues being a result of not doing a good job on the original extractor. Had it been a .300 H&H there would not have been extraction issues with the .300 weatherby and further it would not have been REBARRELED to .300 weatherby.....just rechambered.

Obviously you have a magnum bolt face or one could never fire the .300 weatherby cartridge in it.

You need to see a competent gunsmith.....someone locally knows of one.....check the yellow pages but not the guy that rebarreled it to .30-06.....

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
A .30-cal in 1941 would have been either 30-06 or ".300 Magnum." The latter would have been the .300 H&H Magnum (no other .300 magnums had been invented yet.)

From there, it's easy to determine which of the two it started life as. The rear bridge of the receiver was either cut out to accomodate the 300 H&H magnum or it was not... in which case it would have been a 30-06.

That assumes that it's the original factory barrel which was rechambered to 300wby. But if that's the case, then the original chambering should be stamped on the barrel - Unless it was turned off and the 300wby stamped on it.

So here are the questions:
1) does the barrel have an integral rear sight base to hold the original sight, i.e.: does it look like it has a donut growing out of it about 6" ahead of the reciever?

If so, that should be the original barrel and should have the original chamber stamped on it.

If not, then someone probably rebarreled it when it was re-chambered.

2) Does the rear bridge of the action have the cut-out for the H&H length cases?

What it sounds like is that a COMPETENT gunsmith should look at the gun and see what's been done to it by a series of gun cranks.

If it was rechambered from 300wby to '06 then the bolt face would have to have been welded up and re-machined for the smaller case head, etc...

As you can see, there are a host of variables in this equation; few of which are known.

DON'T SHOOT IT....

Take it to a COMPETENT gunsmith that can cast the chamber and measure the bolt face, etc...

As it sounds, the rifle is worth about $400.00 which is what the action would be worth to someone who wanted to build another gun on it (assuming that it hasn't been botched as has the barrel.)

The original barrel, and/or the one he was using to shot the 300 weatherby from, are gone. He now has a 30-06 barrel on it. I wish I could see it.

For his information, here is a picture of a rear bridge from a "standard length" action (no cut-out in the rear bridge.)



Does anyone have a pic of a H&H-length model 70 to compare to?

quote:

I don't think that Remington ever put out 300 Weatherby brass, did they?

They did.

Excess headspace could explain the case separations in the 300 Wby chamber. I can't think of any other cause.

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:
The original barrel, and/or the one he was using to shot the 300 weatherby from, are gone. He now has a 30-06 barrel on it. I wish I could see it.

Scratch this post of mine, he now says that he has the original barrel and it says ".300 Mag" on it. Since the rifle was made in 1941, and 300 Weatherby and 300 Win mag were not around yet, would it be safe to assume that maybe we have a 300 h&h on our hands here? Would this potentially explain the busted shells? I think so.

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:

Scratch this post of mine, he now says that he has the original barrel and it says ".300 Mag" on it. Since the rifle was made in 1941, and 300 Weatherby and 300 Win mag were not around yet, would it be safe to assume that maybe we have a 300 h&h on our hands here? Would this potentially explain the busted shells? I think so.

That's a big help.....possibly the original barrel can be refit to the action.....I certainly hope so.

but I don't thin k it explains the busted shells unless he was shooting .300 win mag shells in a .300 weatherby chambering.

IF it's a 1941 rifle it can ONLY be a 300 H&H and lots of those were rechambered to 300 Weatherby. And yes Remington does make brass and loaded ammo for the 300 Weatherby. jorge

I called Winchester and the girl there didn't have record of the original caliber. Apparently they have a database of serial numbers, but not back to 1941 for calibers. It was worth a try.

I think I'm going to tell him to send it to a different gunsmith here in Bakersfield for an initial workover. I haven't seen the rifle (though I would love to), so that is about all I can do at this point. I'm still waiting for a picture of the bolt and reciever.

Men, thanks for the advice!

Send it to Leroy, he'll at least tell what wrong with it and what it will take to fix it.

Is Leroy down at Valley Gun shop? That's where I told him to start.

hopefully, you reinstall the original .300 mag barrel and it'll shoot fine...assuming the stock to be OK.....that's going to be a very valuable rifle.....

Here's hoping it works out that way.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
hopefully, you reinstall the original .300 mag barrel and it'll shoot fine...assuming the stock to be OK.....that's going to be a very valuable rifle.....

Here's hoping it works out that way.

Thanks. I already offered to buy it, take the problem off of his hands and all! Due to sentimental value, he says he's going to keep it. He really didn't understand what he had until we started talking, I think.

I'll keep you folks posted.

quote:

IF it's a 1941 rifle it can ONLY be a 300 H&H and lots of those were rechambered to 300 Weatherby.

Like Jorge says and I have the same rifle in 300 H&H

If the original setup was indeed 300 h&h, how the hell was he cramming a 300 Weatherby down the pipe? Doesn't seem like it would fit to me. Or are you suggesting that may it was originally 300h&h and then someone rechambered it to 300 Weatherby? I think that maybe the last situation applies. Thoughts?

Vapodog,

I have a 1938 300 "Mag" model 70 in a SuperGrade. All original, no holes in the rear bridge, steel buttplate, and a Lyman 48 peep sight. It's a sweetheart. I should dig up my digital and post a few pics. I think you'd enjoy them.

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:
If the original setup was indeed 300 h&h, how the hell was he cramming a 300 Weatherby down the pipe? Doesn't seem like it would fit to me. Or are you suggesting that may it was originally 300h&h and then someone rechambered it to 300 Weatherby? I think that maybe the last situation applies. Thoughts?

Yes, it was a 300H&H rechambered to 300wby. No way a 300wby can fit in an H&H Chamber.

I see a potental problem here. The rails may have been altered for 300 WM. If so you will be stuck with that caliber. If the rails were left alone you could go back to 300 HH. Going to a non magnum caliber is not going to be worth while since the bolt face, extractor, ejector mag and rails are all different. I think to the best thing to do is take the whole mess, old barrel and all, to a real gunsmith to sort out.

The cases breaking in half is likely because the shoulder was blowing out too much or by setting back the shoulder when reloading.

quote:

Originally posted by Prewar70:
Vapodog,

I have a 1938 300 "Mag" model 70 in a SuperGrade. All original, no holes in the rear bridge, steel buttplate, and a Lyman 48 peep sight. It's a sweetheart. I should dig up my digital and post a few pics. I think you'd enjoy them.

I and others I'm sure would appreciate that.....BTW is this Howard?...do I know you?

PM me please.....I know a lot of folks in Minneapolis.

quote:

Originally posted by Teat Hound:
Is Leroy down at Valley Gun shop? That's where I told him to start.

Leroy is Leroy Johnson at Johnson's Precision Gunsmithing out in the Rosedale area. He used to teach gunsmithing at Trinity College. He loves the long range rifle shooting and builds a mean 10/22 also. He's building my 6.5-284 (if Krieger ever delivers my barrel).

I have his number here at work somewhere, PM me if anyone wants it.

Teat Hound,

You said that the case he was using said "REM 300 Mag" on the bottom. That is a .300 H&H and not a Weatherby round. I recently had 300 Western Cases from the fifties that I acquired from a retired gunsmith. They all said .300 Magnum on the bottom and the boxes said they were match brass. You can not get a .300 Weatherby in the H&H case. If it had been rechambered and he was firing .300 H&H cases in the Weatherby chamber, it would explain the stuck cases. Both of those rounds head space on the belt and not on the shoulder. If you have the old barrel you can try a .300 Weatherby case to see if it fits in the chamber.

You can buy Cerrosafe from Brownells and cast the chamber, it is not difficult or dangerous. I would not do it to the 06 barrel. If that is what was put on, it is useless on this rifle.

I can not imagine a gunsmith who would rebarrel the rifle in 06 with the magnum bolt face. I would give him a wide berth in the future.