The fact is that the pre-64 model 70 is a great action to create a custom rifle from. All actions types have their idiosyncrasies. I have owned more than 50 custom rifles. Most of them on the pre-64 action and have never had trouble with them. Over time we like to reinvent the wheel and make things that are an improvement of existing designs. The fact is if you want to start a custom rifle project you should start with a classic action. Very few custom rifles are made on Sako, Weatherby, Savage, remington or Howa actions. People want a classic action for a custom gun. When they do they either use a Mauser, Winchester or springfield action. I see no reason to pay $2000.00 for a Dakota action when a pre-64 model 70 is just as good in reality not fantasy.

Allen,
Appreciate your help. Any reccomendations on how to get a good used M98 or pre-64 M70 to build on? Seems like a lot of gunsmiths have the customer supply the action but would most be willing to take care of that part themselves? Probably a complex issue but any major drawbacks to going with a M70 instead of M98 for a 338-06?

Tnanks again,
Joe

Howard,



Jordan may have been factually correct, as well as I believe is Allen.



But when Jordan say's,

Quote:

---

Now, with all due respect to Allen Day, he is simply talking nonsense.

---

Followed by,

Quote:

---

The sintering of the surface steel and massive tool marks on a Winchester current production bolt head and conversely, a complete absence of similar butchery on a Dakota is a good objective example of why I say in this instance, Mr. Day, your opinion is that of a complete ignoramus.

---

, I believe that the discussion was lowered into an un-tasteful area.



Personally I believe that most of these discussions about actions are the equivalent of arguing about dancing angels on a pinhead. But, there are certain individuals on these boards whose opinion I (and I�m sure others) respect. I don�t always agree with these people, but what they say usually merits reading. Allen�s is amongst these.



Personal attacks, as I believe was perpetrated by Jordan are out of line, no matter how well phrased. Jordan has a total of 22 posts and 15 days on this forum under his belt. He may have been dropped in the SW upgrade, so those numbers may be off. If so I apologize. But I don�t remember see his posts before. To come out insulting people out of the chute like this, with little apparent provocation, does little to support his positions. What happened to a bit of civility in debates?



Now I�m off to read about custom rifle makers in Rifle magazine. Got a nice picture of D�Arcy working on a Legend, in it.



Happy New Year!!



-Steve

Your inability to respond to the merits of my objections says all that needs to be said.

As for your juvenile threat that "[I've] crossed a line that [I'd] better back away from, and [you] mean muy pronto...." what, are you going to come beat me up!? My home address is 218 Nagle St., Alturas, CA. I'll be here most of the day. Alternatively, I'll be at the SCI and custom gun shows in Reno in three weeks. Grow up man. You are acting like a child.

Here is the problem. You got caught voicing an assinine opinion---some niggling, idiosyncratic objections to the Dakota line of rifles in a clear effort to persuade another shooter not to buy one for no good reason. We are still waiting for a substantive explanation of what, objectively, is wrong with the Dakota bolt stop!! And by the way, I'll put Dakota's Lothar Walther tubes up against anything put out by Remington, Winchester or Douglas, Shilen, Lilja or Hart for that matter.

Rather than direct your anger inward [where it belongs--a little self-chastisment would do you good] you compound your original error with laughable insinuations that, although I have posted here for years, that my name really isn't "Jordan" and your position should be regarded as unassailable still because the quotations from Don Allen [and others] regarding the objective facts surrounding the design and construction of the Dakota action were
pasted them from another source. Unbelievable. Truly, we are witnessing a melt down in reasoning ability.

Regarding the concentricity of the Dakota action. How much would you like to wager that a random sampling of Dakota actions is several orders of magnitude more concentric than a random sampling of Mauser, Winchester post and pre-64 model 70s or Remingtons and further, that the Dakota will be signicantly more concentric than a gunsmith can achieve using the traditional trueing sleeve---the sleeve employed by the vast majority of custom 'smiths? [I exclude the sleeve marketed by GTR tooling, which allows the action to be trued using two dial indicators on a hardened rod fitted to the bolt bore raceway and thus within 50 millionths of centerline of the bolt bore raceway].

Jordan

How's the knee Swamp? Server fund gunna cover it?

. Jordan, I think you should have all of the Dakota actions you can afford to buy thus leaving all of the lowly Winchester actions to fools like me. In fact if you have any pre-64 model 70 rifles or actions please send them to me as I have need for 25 door stops now and am having a hard time finding suitable candidates.

Square Shooter:

I think the pre-64 model 70 is a fantastic action. If I had my druthers, I'd own 50 of them. The post-64 is fine as far as it goes---a mass produced bolt action. It can be massaged into a very nice piece of steel. D'Arcy Echols comes to mind as a a 'smith who can make the Winchester action into a real work of art. Nowhere in this thread have I said or implied otherwise.

I also like the Husqvuarna commercial Mauser alot and the Mauser 98. I've heard it said that today it would cost upwards of $1,200.00 to machine a piece of steel [assuming you could find steel of equivalent quality] into the equivalent of the Husqvarna small-ring commercial Mauser.



Jordan

Gee, this is like a Flashback

For a minute I thought I was on that other FORUM but then I came to my senses, I'M BANNED over there

Jordan, as far as your "juvenile" comment about me coming to see you in order to "beat you up", I think you and I both know that that's not something I'd waste any time on. It's time for you to grow up and develop a brain that actually works. I'd rather let you stupidly initiate some such ill-conceived punitive action on your own time, and then let you deal with the consequences of same. I deal with more clever and resourceful people than you just about every day of the week for a living. As far as meeting up in Reno to settle some sort of a score, I won't be there this year. I'll be hunting in Mexico for the next two weeks, and then I have to catch up on work for the next couple of months. But I'll be in Reno next year at SCI, so if you want to settle some sort of an empty grudge at that time, go right ahead and look me up, and we'll see what happens.

What you need to get through that child-like, green-pilgrim head of yours is the fact that this is a FORUM. A FORUM in which guys argue all the live-long day about rifles, scopes, cartridges, hunting proceedures, optics, etc. Disagreements are common (unless that aspect of this game has flown so high over your head that you've missed its passing) and believe it or not, some guys like Remington 700s, some guys like Savage 110s, some guys like Model 70s, some guys like Dakotas, and some guys will accept nothing less than a custom job on a Mauser action. We're all individuals here, and disagreements are entirely acceptable.

Where you flunk out, and where you need to rethink your abrasive, insulting, twelve-year-old attitude is in the fact that there are stubborn-assed guys like me around here who simply don't care to own or hunt with your pet brand of rifle. Been there, tried that, and would rather use something else. I named the reasons I don't care to be a Dakota shooter, and I'll stand by those reasons irregardless of your shrill, insulting objections. If you've been paying any atttention to this and related threads, there are a number of guys who feel the same way as I do, and who have also seen through your shallow, transparent rants.

Get real! What are your going to do? Vociferously denounce anyone who doesn't buy into the Dakota marketing plan, or who doesn't agree with your interpretations? If that's your prime directive, you're in for a very long haul of it around here, I'm afraid.

AD

allen, I'm sure glad that you and I agree on Neseika Bay action's, sure wouldn't want to start that again.
Hope you and your family had a good New Year

Allen:

Then what exactly did you mean by your threat? On the basis of what action by you was I to understand that I must cease and desist "muy pronto"? Surely you understand that you cannot harm me through a phone line. Your comment can only be understood as a threat. And once again, having placed your foot infelicitously into your own mouth, you swing wildly at me, rather than learn the obvious lesson.

Look Allen, I am tired of you embarrassing yourself [albeit with my able assistance]. I certainly agree disagreements are common, but you in this instance you are singular in your inability to handle them in a mature fashion---without delivering threats, calling names and insisting that a mere critique of your opinion amounts to a "concerted effort to discredit [you]". You came to this discussion with a chip on your shoulder and then cried foul when I knocked it off.

You threaten me, call names and bluster and sputter to camouflage the absurdity of your position and the simple fact that emotionally and psychologially you cannot possibly be wrong. How dare someone of my low standing question your opinion?! That your ad hominem invective continues unabated is ample evidence that you are beyond reason.

Let's just agree to end this dicussion. It is now pointless.



Jordan

would someone please point out to me what Jordan said about the Dakota action that is false?

Gentlemen,
The only real way to solve this dispute is on the field of honor. Might I suggest this as a means of resolving your differences at SCI Reno.

Jordan,
You state that the Dakota action "will be signicantly(sic)more concentric than a gunsmith can achieve using the traditional truing sleeve" blah blah etc. Then go on to inform about the "sleeve marketed by GTR Tooling, which allows" yada yada yada.
You might not be aware of it but you are quoting brochures again. Probably without having any real understanding of the subject.
The Dakota may be more concentric, in some cases, than a receiver trued using traditional methods. Or it may not. It depends on the skill and knowledge of the machinist and of the person doing the checking. It is possible to true an action using the sleeve on the ring method and have it be perfect as near as can be measured. It is also possible to fool the GTR system depending on the action being checked/reworked and the misalignment in it. I know this since I have used both these systems and others extensively.
As I said, the Dakota can be more concentric than most M70s for instance and even some "trued" receivers (regardless of method used). It won't be more concentric than what a gunsmith "can" do.
I like the breeching system of the Dakota. It is really an adaptation of the Japanese Arisaka much like that employed by Kimber. I notice they don't use the Arisaka connection in the brochure though!
You should work on trying to sound a little less like a sales rep.! Regards, Bill.

Jordan,
Opinions were sought in this thread and Mr. Day gave excellent opinions, never did he tell anyone not to buy a Dakota or degrade them. This thread was excellent until you happened onto it.

HUNTR

No one is ever going to convince Allen that there is anything better than a pre-64 Mod. 70 action.

On the other hand, my new model classic Mod. 70 feeds, ejects, and shoots where I point it. The rest is mostly fluff.

Mike375,

My so called skills are only to keep something functional to my standards. And my standards are that of a person who can shoot well and trys to "be prepared". We each bring a mix of strengths and weaknesses to the table. I am doing my best.

As to this argument involving Jordan I am disapointed that a fight could happen over what to me is a happy topic. Good grief gentlemen each of us is entitled to his own opinion and let it go at that.

Guns are pretty easy to keep going and operate. I find keeping a boat commissioned and single handling it along the coast close to my limits.

Lots of guys with smart mouths around here. Anyway, I think that the best thing for you to do is do what I did when I became interested in purchasing a Dakota Rifle. I took a Drive right on out to Sturgis South Dakota, and asked to take a tour of the factory, and asked to see the wood, and asked to see everthing. I was treated very nicely and learned a lot about the Dakota Rifle and was then able to make an intelligent decision.

As for the model 70 action, a lot of smiths will tell you that many of them are crooked and need some work. Guys like David Miller and D'Arcy Echols will put them on a lathe and redo the threads on them so that the threads are concentric. They will also replace the trigger holding pin, and redo the safety, and a host of other operations as well.

there is one other choice. That would be the Peter Noreen Action. It is now made by a company called Hein or something like that. It is a precision machined action that is like the model 70 and you can have it in any configuration you so desire. Best thing again would be to contact the company and talk to them about their actions and try and learn what you can about them

I've read through this with some interest as I've yet to even begin to desire to spend this much on a Dakota anything. I would rather spend the same money on hunting somewhere I've never been.

I kind-of wonder about these forums as judgements are made on how many posts a person has. I read others coments and if I find my thoughts are already well said I usually won't post. In this particular thread it seams to have drifted from an interesting " what do you think" type question to pure drivel!

My next purchase will probably be a Kimber because I want one, and think its an excellent choice for the money. I have rifles of different makes and calibers ect. and don't get the thrill of having a rifle such as a Dakota.

1. Dakota over-rates their wood. They will call a blank Exhibition XXX which I can easily buy for $200 elsewhere.

2. Dakota has had some accuracy and misfire problems in the past. I have not heard about any for the last couple of years so maybe this has been corrected.

3. If you have to deal with the deceased owner's wife whose name I think is Norma or Barbara or something like that, you will wish you had bought a different brand. I would rather form a business partnership with Darth Vader than talk to Norma.

4. You can get a much much better custom rifle for the same money. Another way so say that is that Dakotas are overpriced.

1. Please, if you actually know where I can buy Exhibition blanks for $200 let me know.

2. I visited with Norma Allen many times when they had their shop in Northfield Minnesota. I also visited with her a few times when I visited the plant in South Dakota. Norma is a very gracious and pleasant woman, and I can only suspect that if someone says they do not like her it is probably because they were giving her an extremely hard time. Who would not be a little upset if somebody else was telling you that your product was overpriced and not worth what you were charging for it. I am sure that if I were to approach every single person who posts on this forum and walk up to them and tell them that they were worth only half of their hourly salary or yearly wage I would get popped in the mouth at least a few times
3. In my many years of buying and selling guns I have learned many important things. One of them is that those who quibble a lot about the price of the gun probably shouldn't be buying one in the first place because they cannot afford it. Another is that it is human nature for almost everyone to think that what they own is worth far more than it is worth, and that what everyone else owns is worth far less than it is worth. One more is that generally speaking, if you cannot afford the gun now, it is far better to find a way to afford it than it is to make an enemy by putting down the seller or the sellers goods. Quit smoking, or go out to eat one less time a week, or drink one less beer a day, or rent one less porno film a month, or whatever, and soon you will be able to afford the nice gun that you want. Or even do like I have done in the past and take a part time job just long enough to make the few bucks it takes to get what you want. And lastly, don't worry about what everyone else says about what you want. If you like it and you want it, that is your business and nobody elses. Life is too short to be living somebody elses life and you have to live your own.

Mike,

The rifles I have are custom made, one was built by Dwight Scott and one I built myself.

Both are on the Dakota 76 action.

My rifles are built to be used, hence the fiberglass stocks.

Both rifles shoot extremely well, which makes them great for elephants at 15 yards or an impala at 400 yards.

Here are two targets, one with each rifle.



This rifle was built by Dwight Scott of Michigan. 300 grain Barnes X



This rifle I built myself. 300 grain Walterhog bullets.

I spent all afternoon cutting copper rods down to 3 inches each, so they can be fed into our mini CNC lathe to make some more of these Walterhog bullets.

They worked so well last year in Tanzania, I am making a few more for our hunt there next August.

Those rifles do shoot well !!

Do you recall what brand of barrels are on them ?
Pat

dSmith

Sounds like you did good! Thanks for the links.

Joe

Idared:

I think Blue is correct. It is my recollection too that Pete Grisel was involved in some way at the beginning, but no longer is.

Jordan

Customstocks

I have been to their website many times, and know of their product as well. In fact, I had work done by Peter Noreen before he left Minnesota, and he was always talking about developing a custom action.

All I was saying is that if one were to look at an ad and it said Waffen whatever it might not get as much attendtion as if it said "Custom Rifle Actions"

It is very common for people to ask us about our name. Although our current actions are very much modeled after the pre-64 Winchester, we must give credit were credit is due. Talking about a M70 without giving credit to Mauser is like talking about an Boeing Airplane weithout giving credit to the Wright Brothers. Waffenfabrik is the German word for gunsmith, and in the beginning Mauser went by Waffenfabrik Mauser. We also hope that once someone gets used to it they will never forget it. For those who want something easier, we also answer to wff Hein.

Karl
karl@rifleactions.com
www.rifleactions.com

Karl,

On your site and available calibres you have:

30-378 Wby
338-378 Wby
416 Rigby
378 Wby
416 Wby
338 Lapua
505 Gibbs*

Any reason the 460 Wby is missing since you have all of the other 378 based calibres.

As you your business name I agree in pricniple with Blue but perhaps for different reasons. The Waffen.... to me conjures up images of Mausers and the Hartman and Weiss action and Johannsen action etc.

Mike

Karl,
I was wondering if I snagged Gary Goudy out of his home in Dayton this spring and drove down if we could get a tour? Also wanted to know if there are any dealer discounts available on the actions. I remember being very impressed with the actions when Peter had them at the ACGG show. Also remember when he had the tooling and the remaining parts for sale. We tried talk one friend who could afford it into buying them but his wife told him it did not fit into what she considered retirement.

Nice groups, Saeed, but they are not dead center on the bullseye. When I was taught to shoot almost 60 years ago in Alaska, right or left, hi or lo, was an inaccurate miss. Now, after buying a my first new rifle in 34 years last year, I see guys on the range that are real happy with tight little groups that are as much as 6 inches off the bullseye, and they shoot them for hours all over the paper, never hitting the center x. Likewise target photos in all the magazines. Where did we go wrong back in the old days when the bears were big and our old rifles so small, the seals head so small, and if one missed, his kids didn't eat? Wayne

Walex
How do you think folks learn how to read wind, learn actual bullet drop, see differences in trajectory with different bullets etc? Do you shoot all your game at the distance you sighted in ?
Covey16

Walex, that post makes things a lot clearer.

Walex, it seems to me that when shooting groups, one would want the point of aim to remain un-blemished as to give the same sight picture for each round. I have been to a ton of benchrest matches and I have yet to see anyone place the shots at the point of aim. Sighting in is a whole different matter.

Joe

Walex,
It has to hurt to be you!!!!!!!!!