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From a weight-saving standpoint, is there a bit of a weight reduction with the 2 position? Trying to save every ounce, you see...Thanks, Arthur Olds | ||
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For the ultimate weight saver get a Timney Fwt trigger with button safety and get an aluminum aftermarker bare bolt shroud. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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The Dakota three position uses a sleeker shroud. The original shroud is retained on the two position safety....IMO the Dakota three pos safety is the lightest. That said....it's a moot point as the difference is probably a small fraction of an ounce. Of far greater importance....the three position safety allows you to load and unload the rifle on the safe position. The two position safety forces you to load and unload on the fire position.....IMO there's no comparison! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Arthur.....May I suggest places to save weight?... Use claro over bastogne or black....be watchful of the recoil pad.....there are large differences in weight there.....M-70 supergrade swivel studs weigh more than round studs....a major weight saving is to use a blind magazine.....it works fine and can save a lot or weight. Be careful about the barrel contour....I love #1 contours when available.....avoid PG caps and forend tips.....they are almost always of denser wood.....Talley one piece bases and rings are aluminum and look great and function well.....Leupold ultralight scopes are great too.....slings are quite variable in weight....can you live without iron sights?.... There can be an entire pound of weight to be saved here.....and of course depending on ones tastes! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Stock material (even the density of a particular blank), bbl length and contour, blind magazine, scope, and rings bases are going to be a lot more important than two vs three position safeties. I bet there is not a 1/2 an ounce of difference... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have built true fly-weight rifles and understand where you are coming from. Yes, every quarter of an ounce is important and adds up. you must look at every single part of the rifle and figure out a way to make it lighter. I just weighed a Gentry M70 safety for a M98 (3.0oz) and a M98 military shroud with 2 position Precise Meetalsmithing lever set up (2.5oz). However, there i smore to consider. Will this be a rifle with a blind magazine? I hate rifles where you have to take the safety off to unload them, and doubly especially so on a blind magazine rifle. I also want a safety to lock the bolt, as I cannot even begin to count the number of times I have had a bolt get opened by brush on rifles without olt-locking safety. So that pretty much means I always want a M70 safety. There is a hell of a lot of unnecessary metal on all commercial 3 position shrouds. If you are building a gun the surely you have a mill, so start hacking away at the shroud. I have thoroughly worked over commercial shrouds and eaten up a good bit of metal. Do not have the numbers handy, but it is worth the effort. Rememebr, every quarter of an ounce matters. There is too much metal on every single part you use, so hack away what you don't need. There is no way in hell I would use Claro. That stuff breaks too easily in regular sized stocks and would be even worse in a stock made for the lightest weight possible. The only wood I would consider is thin shelled walnut. Look fo ra blank that is light weight with good grain flow and eat away all but the bare minimum amount of wood. If you are going the synthetic route then your only choice is a Lone Wolf Carbon Fiber stock. | |||
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I hope it is OK if I do. I have three Claro stocks on a .243, a .270, and a .30-06 and have never had a lick of trouble with any of them. | |||
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Weatherby used a bunch of claro over the years and it seemed to work OK. But I do agree with Mark about claro being weak. I broke a rough-turned claro blank by swinging it against a rock. Without much trouble it broke across the grain with a hollow "POP". I was shocked at how little it took to break the stock. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I understand wanting to be able to unload the rifle on safe. But if you have to take the rifle off safe to unload(such as with a 2 pos safety) I don't see why a blind magazine on a CRF rifle is a makes any difference compared to a rifle with a floor-plate. On a CFR you don't need to chamber the rounds to remove them from the magazine, so why do you hate blind magazines more on a rifle that can't be unloaded on safe? Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I have Claro stocks too. I know many, many people who have Claro stocks. Lord only knows how many Claro stocks I have seen. However, this guy is talking about cutting half ounces. When dealing with a rifle built to these terms, the stocks are made to the bare minimal dimensions. I mean BARE minimum dimensions. Claro is simply not as strong as thin shelled walnut and is far more likely to break. Talk to any stockmaker and ask them about Claro vs. thin shelled walnut. We all have stories about Claro breaking. Plus it is a total bitch to work with. Even the "semi-custom" gun manufacturers will tell you that Claro stocks break more than English walnut stocks. The Parker Repos are the first example to pop in my mind as I type this. Their English grip (straight stock) guns made in Claro walnut had a high failure rate. This guy is not talking about any run of the mill rifle. Anyone who is seriously concerned with half ounces has their stocks made to dimensions so different from "normal" rifles. I am ssuming your rifles are of "normal" proportions and are far less likely to break. That being said, Claro stocks of normal proportions are still more fragile than thin shelled walnut stocks of the exact same dimensions. I am assuming proper grain flow and wood that is proper for a stack blank | |||
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EXCELLENT POINT! I was having this discussion with a gunmaker just last week. I have been debating how to best mount an education campaign for folks to teach them how to safely unload rifles with a blind magazine. My go-to rifle is a M700 with a blind magazine and I never chamber any rounds when unloading. Also, with Mausers I do not chamber rounds when unloading, even though I do not open the floor plate. Mausers are easier to unload this way than a 700, but both are equally safe. What got me to thinking about educating folks on this is the recent Remington brew-ha-ha. Many of the folks who had AD's were unloading ADL's by chambering each round. Had they known how to safely unload their rifles many of these terrible incidents would have been avoided. Still, as a gunmaker and engineer, I am always worried about whose hands a rifle will wind up in at the end of the day. So few people know how to properly/safely unload rifles with blind magazines. Only a tiny fraction of the gun owning population knows what folks on AR know about guns. And even many here do not know how to safely unload a blind magazine rifle. It is about liability and safety of the gun handler and those around them. For this reason I am pretty adamant about a 3 position safety on a blind magazine rifle. I use them becuase as I said earlier, I want a bolt that locks when on safe and a way to unload the rifle with the safety on. Whether the rifle has a hinged bottom metal, blind magazine, or is even a single shot bolt action, that chambered round needs to come out. With the Remingotn AD's it was usually the chambered round that went off unintentionally. I know that is a trigger issue, but it goes to show why a 3 position safety would have helped those rifles. | |||
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Mark: the need to have the safety "on" so to speak when unloading is precisely what prompted the 2 v 3 question in the first place...I agree, I need a 3 As a second thought, the 3 position does allow for easy disassembly in the field if needed (snow, ice, etc.). A standard Buehler, Mark X or even the neat FN have always presented moments of difficulty (scratched tables, damaged nuckles, etc.). Just more food for thought...Arthur Olds | |||
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Given the excellent 3 position safeties available today, I can't think of a single reason to go with a 2 position safety. | |||
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Yep! Hunted in a lot of snow this year and it was so nice to be able to quickly spin out the firing pin assembly, clean and dry the bolt and guts, and then quickly screw it right back in. Can do it with a 2 position, of course, but it is so easy with a M70 safety, especially if you ever have to do it in the field | |||
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Arthur, You can build a light weight rifle with the Dakota 3 position safe. My .250 Sav. on a shortened kar 98 action weighs 4 lbs 12 oz with a Leupold fixed 2.5 X in skeletonized steel mounts. The stock is english, but it is VERY trim. The barrel is also turned to minimum dimensions, but I believe it is safe with factory loads, and the rifle is so marked. This little rifle is a dream to carry, but it is tough to shoot without a nearby tree for a rest. I would post a photo, but have not been able to figure out how yet.... | |||
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pics dude, pics! | |||
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Hi Marc, I have tried to post photos here before with no success. Tried Photobucket and other photo hosting sites. Not sure if it is me or my computer. Probably me... But I can email some tomorrow if someone will volunteer to post them. Ken | |||
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email them to me at the email listed in my profiel and I will load them for you | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing 2 v 3 position Mauser safety?
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