I haven't paid any attention to ".338" stories in the gun rags for a while, so can any of you tell me how the new magnums stack up against the Lapua?

What about rifles? Building one from scratch, what would you go with -- a Remington action, a 1917, or what?

A friend of mine is thinking of going this route and asked my thoughts on the matter. I have a rifle chambered for .338/378 Weatherby Magnum, but haven't paid attention to any ".338" articles unless they were about this chambering.

Any of you guys have any recent "how they compare" references you could recommend?

Comments on powder-burn efficiency, velocity gains, et cetera, will be welcome. I'll pass everything along.

Thanks.

Russ

Russell, I have a Sako TRG-S (or M995, same thing) in 338 Lapua Magnum. I also have a 338 Win Mag, a 338-06 and a 340 Wby. The Lapua has the case capacity to exceed all these others, but in my case I haven't found a powder that will do that. With a 250 gr bullet I can't exceed 2980 fps with any powder I've tried so far. That's only about 20 fps faster then the 340, they both have 26" barrels. One of my friends' has a 338 ultra on a Savage (switch barrel rifle, 26") and we can load that to past 3000 fps. Technically the Lapua should be the faster choice, but such hasn't been my experiance. On the other hand, the Lapua brass is superb, better then anything else I've ever tried. I remember reading reports of the Lapua in sniper use (the TRG 21) which recounted 3000 fps with the 300 gr Sierra MK, all I can say is that they had a very Fast barrel, or it was a little typewriter testing. In terms of cost, the Remington choice is much cheaper (guns, components, dies) then the Sako/Lapua. I still believe that if I can find the right powder the Lapua will outperform the Ultramag (bigger boiler room), but at this time I'm still looking. Hope this helps. - Dan

Just as an addendum, Midway is offering 338 Lapua barrels for the Savage now. I think you could fit the case in a Remington 700 as well. Using a P14/17 for something like this would be expensive. I'm not saying don't do it (I have P14/17's in numerous calibers, including 35-378, so it's more then possible), I'm just saying I think it would be cheaper to go the Remington route. - Dan

Thanks, Dan, I've passed along your information to my friend.

Yes, a Savage action would sure be the cheapest way to go. If he goes with a .338 RUM, I might have him do one for me, too.

Yes, since I have a .338/378 Weatherby Magnum, I'd say that "test" Lapua had a "fast" barrel, indeed. Maybe they were using a moly-coated keyboard to write the article.

I rarely suggest the use of duplex loads but, in your case, if you think you know what you're doing, you might give it a try. Have you used Retumbo yet? I'd try some of it before going the duplex route.

Thanks for the input, Dan.

Russ

[ 12-03-2002, 03:00: Message edited by: Russell E. Taylor ]

Russell - not current info but the August 2000 issue of RifleShooter has an article on the 338's - can't offer any first hand info on any hotrod 338 as I shoot a plain jane 338 winnie - same magazine has an article on the 416 Rigby (you out there Dagga?) KMule

Dan,

being one that suggests a REM 700 for the Lapua size case, can you explain why you don't have a problem with it as some do?

Russell,

My brother has a 338-378wby and shoots a 300gr SMK right at 3000fps, but has a 32" Pacnor barrel.

It's on a 700 action by the way. One hole groups breaking it in too, all while working up to the 118gr H870 load he uses now.

I'm still tossing up a 338 Lapua Imp or a 338-416 Rigby Improved for my project 700. I seen the Savage barrel in 338 Lapua for sale now too. The Savage doesn't have a larger barrel thread or bolt diameter than the 700 does it?

I have a 338 Lapua and like it alot. I would not however build one on a Remington action, I would go with the Ultra Mag. I had a Remington 700 in the 338 RUM and it basically duplicates the Lapua. They are not very efficient rounds but I never really cared about that. Of all of my 338's, I usually use my 338 Win Mag the most. Unless your friend is serious about practicing with a Lapua or RUM, stick with the Win Mag, recoil is pretty stiff when launching those bullets at that speed.

Another option would be 330 Dakota or 340 WBY, I have the Dakota and it is considerably more efficient than the RUM or Lapua. Where you can get the Lapua/RUM to 3000 with a 250 the Dakota can get 2800-2900 with ~15 grains less powder.

Another consideration is the cost of brass, the cheapest I have ever seen Lapua brass is at Midway for $106 a hundred for Norma brand from Midway. You can get the RUM or Win Mag for a third of that.

The Dakota brass runs about the same as Lapua (around $1 apiece). Dies are more espensive, the powder cost is higher. I can only get around 75 rounds out of pound of powder.

If you need any more info just let me know, I'll try to post what I've had experience with. I have/had a lot of the 338 bores available with the exception of the 338-06 and the 338/378.

Jim

I recently sold my .338 Lapua target rifle with a 30" tube. My accuracy load was 92.5gr of H-4831 and I was netting 3100 fps with a 200gr LRB bullet. I worked up several loads with Retumbo and was able to gain another 100fps +/-, however I was compressing loads.

I also have a .330 Dakota in a 24" tube. I net 3150fps with 87.5gr of RL-22 with a 200gr Nosler Partition Gold. Because this is a hunting rifle, I generally load 250gr Noslers at 2880fps with 82gr of H-4831.

As 338Lapua pointed out, the Dakota cartridge is considerably more efficient than either the Lapua or Ultra case. You are at the point of diminishing returns when you push case capacity beyond the Dakota. Yes you can pick up a few more fps with the Ultra or Lapua, but at a considerable cost. Depending upon what you want to do, any of the three case designs are good launching platforms. However, if you are after a hunter, I would strongly suggest the Dakota cartridge.

Russell, we haven't got Retumbo up here yet. As soon as I can find some, I'll try it. I've read a lot about the duplex loads, I've been reloading for 23 years now and haven't tried them yet. Perhaps it's time to go back and re-research the idea. I don't have any problem with 700 338 Lapua's because I've seen too many 700 338-378, 30-378, and 378 rifles to worry too much. They all ended up single shots, but I've never seen a problem that wasn't caused by someone trying to break the speed records with their loads. As with a great many things in life, if you tread cautiously you can get away with a lot. - Dan

My hunting and shooting partner has a .338 wildcat built on a necked-up 8mm Remington case with no other changes. His barrel is a factory Remington .338 Winchester, 24", rechambered. It may be a "fast" barrel, but at what appear to be reasonable pressures, he is getting 3200 fps with a Nosler 210 and about 2950 with a 250 grain Sierra. From my work with several .338 Winchesters, a .340 Weatherby, and his .338/8mm, I believe the .338/8mm is getting close to optimum. Of course he is cheating a bit; he is using some original surplus 4831, the greatest powder the world has ever known!

From this experience and quoted performance for larger rounds, I don't believe anything larger than the .338 Remington UltraMag will gain you much, and the UltraMag is much cheaper to build and feed than a Lapua or .338/378 Weatherby or any of the Rigby wildcats.

The Dakota is a standard action. It is a shortend 404 jeffries improved. If you can fit a RUM into an action you can definately fit a Dakota as it is shorter. BUT the Dakota has a larger rim than the RUM but smaller than the Lapua. The folks who won't build a Lapua on a Remington, will build the Dakota (usually).

Actually, if you want to get the most out of the RUM, you need to go with 28"+ in barrel, and preferably a 30"+. This is really what these overbore catridges were designed for. You can gain alot with barrel length in the RUM, Lapua, 338/416 Imp, 338 Tomahawk, and 338 Yogi.

Just a question, what is he going to use the rifle for? Is he wanting to get into LRH or is he just building 'cause he wants to have something big bad and different? If it's the latter I would highly reccommend the Dakota, he will be much happier. If it is the former, he needs to get out of the doing cheaper frame of mind, as LRH is a very expensive endevour.

Just some more thoughts and opinions for him, take it FWIW.

Jim

I've played with both the .338 Lapua and the .338 Ultramag. I am able to tweek a bit more velocity out of the Ultramag ( 3075), with 250 gr bullets ( Sierra HPBT or Lapua Scenars) vs the Lapua ( 2950). One advantage of the Ultramag is that you can build one on a trued M700 action and accuracy wise it's pretty darn impressive <.75 moa at 350 yrds). I've not seen or heard of anyone doing any better velocity wise with a .338-.378 even though the case capacity is much larger. The Lapua brass is much better, but also much more expensive. I prefer weighing and discarding the .338 Ultra stuff.-Rob

Thanks, Jim, for the prompt reply. That's good news on the Dakota.

No, he's just a power-crazy SOB like I am, that's all. He's getting an AR-30 from ArmaLite and was kicking around building a hunting rifle in .338 Lapua Magnum (saving on dies, you see). This has gone from THAT idea to... well, what you see here in this thread. He always likes to have a winter project with which to occupy himself. I doubt he'd take a shot on game beyond 400 yards, if even that... and I'm pretty much the same way... but he and I both like horsepower in our firepower, so to speak. He built my .500 Linebaugh revolver -- but apparently I'm crazier for power than he is, because he wouldn't shoot it.

I'm just guessing, but... are the Dakota reamers "only" available from Dakota Arms? For a semi-practical hunting rifle, in .330 Dakota, what would you recommend for barrel length?

Thanks again, Jim, for responding to the length question promptly.

Russ

Mine is a 24" barrel, but that's only because that's what Dakota put on it. I would go with a 26". The reamers are generally available, I just looked on Pac-Nor's site and they offer the 330 Dakota.

I don't know what kind of money you are looking at but a Winchester rebarreled with a nice match grade barrel, a good trigger (Jewel ) or a trigger job, and bedded into a nice walnut or McMillan stock would be nice rifle. If I didn't have my Model 76 this is the route I would go.

Like I always say build what you want, but make sure it is exactly what you dream as you will never get your money back out of it.

If I could ever figure out how to post pictures, I have a digital camera and can take pictures of the Dakota compared to the Lapua and Win Mag if you are interested to see how the cases compare.

Just let me know if I can be any help.

Jim

Thanks, Jim, if you could post pictures, that'd be swell.

His last personal project was a .308 Winchester he built on a turned and tuned Remington action, with a Pac-Nor barrel. The sucker sure does shoot. He was very pleased with the barrel when it arrived. He had them cut a special contour and they did exactly what he wanted. Turnaround time was pretty good, too.

Russ

Go with the .338 Excalibur !
This case outperforms the others, and it's also an original( even tough MASSIVE). I don't think i have had any information on this one,i mean talked to a guy who owns a .338 Excalibur,,but i have the A-square manual and tells me that 3250 fps with a 250 grain bullet,(don't remember bullet) ,,,is achievable.Just too much of a good thing ,velocityyy !I really bet a "hot- rodder" could push the 250 bullet even faster. Or try the 8.59 Titan,,that too is IMPRESSIVE !!

Before you decide on which caliber, you may want to take a look at the "Reloading Pages" right here in this forum for details on a few .338's including those mentioned here, and also a couple of great looking wildcats, one of which is the .338-404.

Link to the .338's:
web page: Reloading Pages

[ 12-04-2002, 08:08: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

Good idea, Ray, I passed that page along to my friend.

(Um... there's a listing for the .330 Dakota and the .338/404... um... I thought that's what the .330 Dakota is based on. A double listing, or a proprietary thing?)

Russ

Russell,

I have an acquaintance at my shooting club who has a .338 Lapua and a .338/.416 improved. Both have 28" barrels and he gets impressive velocities from both. By impressive I mean around 3000 fps from the Lapua with a 300 gr matchking and around 3100 fps from the .338/.416 with the 300 gr matchking. However, he has related to me that he uses surplus ww860 and ww872(both slow lots). I don't know his load data but have seen him chronograph loads to know that he is not blowing smoke. Personally I think that while the superextremeultramagnum .338's are spectacular 500m and beyond bench guns they are a mistake in a field gun. The become too heavy and unwieldy(in the field) when built to extract maximum performance.

[ 12-04-2002, 08:58: Message edited by: DavidReed ]

Russell, check your mail.

The OAL is 4.100" and it's a single shot.
The 300 Ultra necked to 338 is where I'd go, my father is having one built. My guess is Lapua will make cases for the 300 Ultra first if they do.

I recently weighed some 60 300 Ultra brass first then checked the water weight too after marking and sorting all the cases by weight. These were three different lots also of once fired factory ammo all trimmed to equal length.

Case weight varied over a 4.0gr spread.
Case + Water weight varied over 4.0gr. spread as well.
The lighter brass did not hold more water, at ALL.
The heavier brass did not hold less water, at ALL.

Case weight was subtracted from the weight of both together.
Weighed on RCBS Powder Pro digital scale to the tenth.
Eye dropper used to fill all cases EVEN with mouth, no convex.

Internal case capacity was +-2 tenths of a grain and I aint lyin!!....not even by a tenth either.

With the 4gr spread I never would have thought it even possible, nor did I....until I weighed them. Now we'll se how long it lasts.

I'll check some others too, but I'm about ready to conclude case wt doesn't mean crap as to capacity.

Runout with the last twenty rounds loaded was .001-.002" and 3 that were .004", not bad for regular Redding dies and Remington brass.

Just thought you might find that informative seeins how Rem brass always get the bad rap.

All I can offer is I used my 338 RUM, with a 200gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, for deer season this year. It is a Syndero and will shoot this bullet in l 1/2" at 200 yards. I shot my deer with it no big deal it worked perfectly. (Shot the deer cuz I didn't go elk hunting my area was to dry.) Also shot a coyote @ lazer ranged 712 yards. I'm in love with it but I can't tell you anything about how it compares with the Lapua. Yea, I know what some of you are thinking the coyote shot is BS but I did have two witnesses and as they say if you really have "done it" it doesn't matter if anyone believes you or not! Good Hunting, "Z"

Good thread! My brother and I have been discussing just this subject in the last few days.

He is looking for a "500 yard moose gun" that he can also use to hunt large bears. After a big of reading and talking right now we have pretty much decided on the 338 Remington Ultra Mag. the 338 Lapua doesn't seem like too practical a hunting round and the 330 Dakota, 340 Weatherby are too similar in performance and the components are pricier. Anyone have a better suggestion for what to look at?

A good choice!!
I was at the shooting-range this afternoon, to test my 338 RUM.
And I must say; this is a shooter!!
My 338, is a custom buildt Winchester 70, SS, pre'64, w/a shilen 26" fluted barrel, and a laminate stock on it.
The case here is that I havent had the money to get it properly scoped yet, but I put a cheap Tasco 4x on it just to see how it shoots.
And with that scope I was able of shooting several 3 shot -groups on .700"!!(on 100m)
I used 250grs. Hornadyes, both SP and RN, loaded with 87grs of Norma MRP. (a light load I think, but I havent crony them yet)
This was my first trip to the range with this rifle, and I think this was a gooood start!

If you want anything that not everyone else has, go for the .338x68S. I havent seen any velocity results from this one though. Does anybody have anything on this one??

Now Russell E.... you better go out and put yourself togeather a 375/404 or 375/416 rigby and stop this nonesense
take care
smallfry

Aint the lapua a reworked 416 rigby case, with thicker walls? I think I read something like that..

Eitherway, it'll work in a enfield p14/p17...

jeffe

Well, he's made his decision, after much discussion between the two of us.

For reasons of practicality, cost, component availability, and other factors... it's the .338 RUM.

However... for the cost, he could buy a factory Remington chambered for same. Except he doesn't want a Remington. He could, however, buy one cheaper than he could build one. Again, though, he doesn't want a Remington. I don't know why, I don't care. What he does want, though, "if" he gets it in a factory gun, is a Winchester. Winchester doesn't chamber the .338 RUM (yet?), though they do chamber the .300 RUM. So, now, the discussion of late is to whether or not it's worthwhile to rebarrel "any" Winchester action or wait for Winchester to come out with the .338 RUM. This whole idea was his but, if he goes forward, I'd consider having a gun built, too. However, I'm not picky -- I have Savages, LOVE Savages, don't give a damn whether I have a factory gun or not -- and I'm "this close" to just finding a run-of-the-mill Savage action and having an appropriate bolt head put on ($12 at Brownells, I think), and having a suitable barrel chambered and installed. It's not a rush, though, for me. I have all the time in the world to wait and see if Winchester comes out with a .338 RUM. I don't know what his timetable is, though.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who provided really excellent ideas, data, and input. I copied him on everything posted and/or E-mailed. Thanks very, very much, gentlemen.

Russ

Looks like i found the thread late,anyway
someone asked for the 338LM length in a REM700 action.
I have a 338LM build in a HS presicion action,9it`s the same action basicly) and a take down in a long action REM700 in 338LM, 338RUM(don`t ask )300WM and 308W...
The two large catriges extract fine after firing, the problem is, if you try to extract for some reason when still unfired.
that`s why the HS presicion has a cut out at the rear of the port that enables the catrige to be extracted whole ,you can do the same on the rem700 also you need a saco type extractor.the problem with this is that the spend catrige will fly a bit up and more than likely will hit the windage knob(relation betwen ejector-extractor).
The HS presicion has a nice saco type extractor that is inside the lug((the lug has a cone shape and ends up flush with the bolt head) and extract horizondaly...
It`s a very good action i would recomend it for building a custum 338LM rig..i know i did
For velosities i am geting 3100fps with 250Scenars
reloads,i am still working the 300MK i am close to 2800 and with the Black Hills 300MK i get 3000fps
I am shooting at 96 deg tempratures and more than likely that`s why i get such velosities,in that temprature(96) i get a stiff bolt liif with the BH ammo but when i did shot them at 65 deg it was fine and not much loss in velosity.
These are numbers i got on my cronograf..if the crono lyied to me i am lying to you.
The 338RUm barrel is prety new and i have not work up my final loads ,i am only at 2700-2750 with 250MK.