A recent post has prompted me to make this post and ask this question. I am asking more of those here who do not consider themselves "smiths", but anyone please reply.

I am a stockmaker aka woodbutcher. From my perspective it is a specialist in the gunmaking industry. I do not consider myself a gunsmith.

Any one have some opinions?

Not many of them left. There are a lot of "parts" changers. You take them Remugchester that won't hit the intended zip code and they will screw on aftermarket parts at a great mark up and hefty labor charge.

Try to find one that will make what you have shoot. They ain't gotta' clue!

I know where this is coming from, I've seen Steve shoot his pieces of shit( to quote the great Mr. Belk) and I've built 3 of the most accurate rifles I've ever owned, using his methods. The only thing that matters to me is I have less than $750.00 total in all three.

Damn right they're butt ugly! What's that got to do with putting 10 in the x ring at 600 yds.?

Then you have the gun "stylist". It really doesn't matter if the finished product doesn't shoot any better than the original rifle as long as it has all the "in vogue" parts finished in the method "dujour" and costs $2k.

Anybody with guts enough to take apart his neighbor's gun with the neighbor watching ??

I am more familar with the tool and die making trade. As far as I know it requires 2000 hours of trade school and then an apprenticeship which may be two years.

There may be some requirements from Europe for trades in general that may be an outline.

hmmm, I aint a gunsmith, just a serious hobbist...

yet, The only way I would have even considred this is if my bolt broke at axel's house, and all he had around was a brokwn g8bolt and a toliet handle... and i NEEDED to shoot something...

what's a gunsmith?
1: he KNOWS what is doing
2: is SAFE
3: Makes ART

Someone else, me included, might someday aspire to armourer (part's jockey and fitter)

Jeffe

A crafter of atractive, accurate, safe, and reliable firearms.

Kristofer

Terry8mm, I wasn't really looking for a bitch on the current stutus of the gunmaker you have known. I want to know by definition what you or anyone else considers a gunsmith. And as far as "where this is coming from," you are as clueless in that category as I am as to who the hell Steve is. I am not looking for aesthetics, but a reasonable thought about what a gunsmith is. Think about a dentist and then stick in a gunsmith and then switch guns for teeth.

[ 03-28-2003, 22:47: Message edited by: Customstox ]

I look at a "Gunsmith" as a person that knows how the firearm is supposed to work, can identify the reason it`s not, and correct it properly. The `smith should know semi`s, pumps, shotguns, and rifles.
Machinist skills are necessary but are not the end all in gun repair. -Really a trade of it`s own- I believe most `smiths work comes in as repair work not custom building.(which also requires knowing what and why, not just screwing on parts)
I look at a `smith as a tradesman, someone you pay more for their knowledge as opposed to a laborer that you pay to do work.

Then again I`m not a `smith so what do I know. Just my opinion..................and don`t knock yourself as not a `smith chic, I can`t whittle a point on a stick let alone a gun stock

Chic, I think you don't give yourself enough credit, I have never handled one of your rifles but have seen pictures. Anyone who can make a piece of wood look like it belongs on a gun like you can is s smith in my book, if a specialized one. I'm sure if needed you could master all other aspects of the trade also.

I have built a few stocks that turned out very nice for myself but wood stockmaking is not part of my career. Most people that can build a great stock can do anything else in the trade, I believe it is by far the most difficult and subjective aspect of the trade other than engraving. I don't believe most engravers are gunsmiths but all stockmakers have to be.

I believe a gunsmith is a person who can build all the parts he needs to make a gun function well if they are not on-hand. Any half competent mechanic can swap parts.

I went to school for two years full time+ for gunsmithing. Although I know a few very good gunsmiths that have never took a class and many smith students that I wouldn't let within ten feet of my gun even after they graduate. I don't think you have to make money at it to be a gunsmith although when you try to live off a smiths' salary it'll make you rethink what you're doing. Most of us don't do it to get rich, that's for sure. When you leaving school and going to work for real you learn to do things 5 times as fast 5 times as good at the same time.

I spend about 10% of my shop time on repairs (swapping parts) 40% on semi-custom guns 30% on full-customs 15% on other(recoilpads, refinishing, porting, trigger jobs, etc) and 5% on developing new products. The 5% is what I enjoy the most , by far. This is about my ideal breakdown, others prefer to specialize.

A little more than my 2pennies,

Aaron

Hell JAck, Taking it apart is easy! Its the putting back together I have a little trouble with.

What constitutes a Gunsmith. You could supstitute the word gunsmith with Surgeon/doctor, auto mechanic,carpenter,etc.
I guess who ever posts a sign saying they are.

There are people that are not gunsmiths that can do better work than someguys that claim they are gunsmiths.

A person who "builds, repairs or modifies firearms." It's too generic of a term. My rifles are done by riflesmiths and my pistols are done by pistolsmiths. What good is a General Practitioner when you really need a Brain Surgeon (or a Proctologist).

A gunsmith is a person who works on firearms that is self employed or employed by a company. This person should know the basics of gunsmithing which is a combination of mechanic, carpenter, welder and machinist and any other related trade, whether self taught or aquired at a school. When you complete a trade school you have only begun to learn your skills. What direction this takes you depends on your skill and the demand for your service. It is impossible to know it all and be able to do it all, so we have reference books and people to help along the way. Every day you learn something new, how you apply it to your service is what makes you stand out among others in the same trade. When you go to school a passing mark is usually 70%. Is the 70%er a poorer trades person than the one who gets 100% marks? The 70%er may make a better stock than the 100%er (no pun intended, just trying to make a point) and the 100%er may excell in rifling a barrel. So a gunsmith is many things from all walks of life and how they promote their work will make or break them.

a gunsmith is a person who says he knows guns.

Now that we've almost defined what a gunsmith might be. Is there a national directory of gunsmiths?

Taken one step further, I think a person should qualify as a tool and die maker, then serve as an apprentice to a seasoned or well established gunsmith and have an inherent interest in firearms before he can become a gunsmith. Otherwise, most are parts replacement technicians.

"Anybody with guts enough to take apart his neighbor's gun with the neighbor watching ??"

Then I make the cut. Last year I was visiting some friends in an island off the Honduras coast and he had an old Win 1200 for protection (he needs it there). He is not much of gun person and it needed cleaning bad, as it was beginning to rust in that humid climate and the action was sticking. He asked me to clean it for him. Well with him watching I stripped it down and a long spring steel piece (the ejector) comes flying out of the action without me having seen how it fit in. I went "hmmm wonder where that came from" and he just gives me this look (Did I mention he really needs this to protect his home). I look at him and said, "don't worry I'll figure it out", but I think I was trying to convince myself as much as him. Well I figured it out and put the gun together and everything worked just great. Guess what, in his eyes, I'm a gunsmith!

[ 03-28-2003, 17:04: Message edited by: B B ]

Well Chic, you hit the hornet's nest here. One thing that bothers me most; when I am at a guns how with some "show and tell" stuff, and some guy comes by and asks me, "are you a gunsmith?". What the hell do I tell the guy. I ususally fumble around and say something to the effect that I do some work on guns. I guess I like to think I am a specialist. I do not do the ordinary every day sort of stuff like cleaning or blueing, I stick to the custom stuff, re-barrelling, stock making, custom stuff like varmint guns and custom rifles. NOw, what the hell am I? I hesitate to call myself a gunsmith when I look down the aisle and see a big sign that says "Gunsmith" and I know the guy under it, and I know I just got done fixing one of his *&&^$-ups, and here he comes with his hand on his chin and starts in, "...say do you know how to...?

Jim

To me a gunsmith is a composite made up of some of the following trades/professions. The percentages will vary with the smith. A machinist, artist, councillor and experimentor. I've worked with tool & die makers I wouldn't let near my rifles. They are excellent machinists but have no vision. That's why I think a "gunsmith" should be multi faceted. Besides the normal repair work he/she needs to be able to translate another's ideas into reality.
For example there are stock makers and there are stock makers. Boyd's, Richards and McMillan all make stocks. So does Chic Worthing. However, the difference between the drop in "off the rack" stock and a creation by Chic or another custom stock maker has to be seen to be appreciated. Even though I can't afford one doesn't mean I can't appreciate the time, talent and beauty built into a custom stock.

A gunsmith is a person who can take a collection of parts that work together poorly and turn them into something that works well. A great gunsmith takes a collection of parts that weren't intended to work to together at all, whether by design -- .375 H&H in a military Mauser, or nature -- like a stock blank and creates function and form.

I'm no gunsmith. No matter how many parts and curses I throw at my 10/22 -- another bolt, 2 extractors and 3 barrels -- I STILL can get the dang thing to extract reliably.

To me a gunsmith is someone who through the use of burning incense, druid chants, virginal sacrifices, and the occasion dead cat can produce a firearm that will make grown men weep and woman offer themselves up in awe inspired appreciation.

Chic is no wood butcher. Watching him rummage through a pile of blanks is like observing the laying on of hands at an old time revival.

Jeff

A gunsmith needs to understand metal and how to work it.....understand wood and how to shape it....understand how the parts relate to each other and make them work in harmony.

In addition, a gunmaker needs to have an artist's eye with a sense of style.

The very best are also part psychologist and therapist.

The most successful also seem to have a good sense of self-promotion.

Other traits that would be nice but..... knowing what work to turn down.....being good businessmen and finally, a sense of time as I hate it when 3 months turns to 6 months and the etc etc.

God bless the good ones as it is getting tougher and tougher.

A gunsmith is a craftsman who enjoys going to work in morning and work long hours, because he just Forgot to look at the clock. A good one will be busy all his life.

A gunsmith is often a guy that busts his ass working long hours doing jobs for the most critical of customers all to enjoy a standard of living well below that of a school janitor! He does this because he doesn't know any better!
He forgoes hunting so his customers can hunt and builds rifles his fellow competitors use to beat him.
Some gunsmiths are gunmakers but not all. Some gunmakers are gunsmiths only in a very limited sense. Some are good businessmen and others are seriously challenged in this area (hence the low standard of living!) All are involved in the trade because they like it.
Some have diplomas and licenses and even degrees while others do not. Good ones never stop learning. Regards, Bill.

Right on Bill, Except for the forgoes hunting part

To me, the mechanics of gunsmithing lies in cutting barrel threads, surface grinding, chambering, bedding, drilling and tapping, etc. Lots of people can do this stuff and do it well; a few can muff it up pretty badly.

The ART of gunsmithing is sorting things out when they don't go as planned; massaging an action for perfect feeding; accurizing a sloppy factory rifle; making almost any part; engraving, stock making / inletting, color casing, rust bluing, or other advanced finishing; hand polishing; etc. These are all things that require a lot of extra, special attention, and frequent practice, to do well.

That's just my opinion -- I'm not a gunsmith, even amateur -- just a tinkerer.

Todd

This is a tough thing to catagorize very accurately to my way of thinking. It was suggested to think of a dentist and substitute gunsmith for it. Okay, here goes.

A dentist today is getting to be a very specialized person. Most do not do every phase of operations connected with dental care. I recently had a crown put on one of my teeth and it involved three separate people before it was finished. First a specialist did a root canal. Then another specialist built up the tooth in preparation for the crown to be installed on and made a cast of it. A third person actually made the crown that the second specialist installed. If you want to count the person who cleaned my teeth before anything else was done there were four different people! The same thing holds true in most occupations in the medical field. I recently had both knees replaced by a surgeon who works on nothing but joints in the body such as knees, hips, etc. There are many, many other specialists as well.

I think the same thing is manifested in the gun world. I think the term "Gunsmith" is often used just as the term "Doctor" is used. Regardless of what part of the body you are working on you are often called a "Doctor". By the same token many times regardless of what part of a firearm you are working on you will often be referred to as a "Gunsmith". I don't say this is wrong by any means but perhaps it doesn't delinieate a certain person's skills as it should. Many people who I have known that worked on firearms had a definite preference as to what they like to do such as metal smithing, stockmaking, blueing, refinishing, custom manufacturing, engraving, or whatever the case may be. Although all these specialists are without a doubt craftsman in their own trades I really don't think "Gunsmith" is a proper term to use to describe them.

To my way of thinking, and mine only, a true "Gunsmith is a person who can and does on an everyday basis do all the phases of gun building whether custom building or repair and customizing of existing rifles. Most craftsman today in the firearms business do not do all the phases connected with custom gunwork. Does this make them less of a craftsman? Of course not, they are just specialists just as many professionals are in the medical world. This is the day of specialization in the world and gunsmiths are in my mind no different, and why should they be? To me it is only logical if a person likes what they are doing they will do a better job of it. I really don't think there are many people who can do a real high quality job in all phases of a what truly is thought of a "One of a kind" custom rifle today. There are no doubt some, but they don't jump out at me as the likes of Leonard Brownell and Winston Churchill do. These two people were masters of the "Gunsmith" trade and in all phases and even they didn't do everything themselves all the time.

This has gotten far too long, but in closing I think it would be a good thing if today's so called "Gunsmiths" would be called something like stockmaking specialists, metalsmithing specialists, or specialists of whatever other phase of gunwork they choose to do. If one chooses to be a "General Practitioner" in the gunwork world I guess they would be called simply a gunsmith but I really believe there are getting to be fewer of these all the time. It just seems to me that more smiths are becoming specialists and I think that is a good thing.

I have re barreled rifles in my shop, but I am not a gunsmith.
I have built houses, but I am not a carpenter.
I have rebuilt car engines, but I am not a mechanic.
I have built electronic breadboards, but I am not a technician.
I have raised my own food, but I am not a farmer.
I have butchered hundreds of animals, but I am not a butcher.
I can play a guitar, but I am not a musician.

This reminds me of Burt Reynolds, who said, "I could have been a professional football player, but I wasn't big enough, fast enough, or good enough."

I realize that I am big enough to be a gunsmith, I am just not fast enough or good enough.

[ 03-30-2003, 00:40: Message edited by: Clark ]

Great question because I'm always asked (except that I'm asked about what it takes to be a dog trainer). A good shooter isn't necessarily a gunsmith and a good dog handler isn't a trainer. One is a tool builder. The other is a tool user. The best builders I know (regardless of expertise) are the ones with enough integrity to tell you they can't help you. There are too many areas of expertise to totally define a smith (or a trainer). That's why I go back to his level of integrity as the deciding factor. I respect someone a lot more for being honest than BSing me. And I'll send him appropriate business.
J

One mark of a good gunsmith is he not only KNOWS how the various parts work together but he UNDERSTANDS how and WHY.

I would say that a gunsmith is a person who has undergone an educational/vocational training program, either at a recognized institution that has an accredited program in gunsmithing, or who has participated in an apprenticeship training program under the tutelage of a recognized master gunsmith; and, who, after having been appropriately trained, has "practiced" his/her trade long enough that his/her work is recognized as being of sufficiently high standard that the customer can have confidence that this person's work will meet the customer's expectations! Your "average gun butcher" does not meet these requirements!! Reputation is the best way to select a gunsmith!!

A master gunsmith can take a much butchered piece of metal and turn it into smooth working,good looking rifle.A gunsmith turns that same piece into a safe working rifle.There is a big difference.Read Bill Leepers post on rear 'scope mount holes on a Mauser.

Thanks for the comments guys, I pretty much agree with most of the posts. One of the finest gunsmiths I ever knew was self taught. Could dismantle almost anything while looking at you and make repairs almost as fast. He was an excellent stockmaker and metalsmith. And those that knew him miss him and his quiet manner.

I don't necessarily agree that they have to work with wood but it sure can include all those things. There are lots of specialists in this arena, a gunsmith has a lot more of those specialities well in hand. I am still not a gunsmith amd ,and may never be, but while I am not the journey is interesting.