Guys

I am new to the tinkering thing and I am building a .22-250 Rem on a 98 Mauser action . I have got the action & barrel polished as best I can on a buffer. I found a article in the Magnum magazine that gives a process for blueing as follows .
For every 5 litres of water add 2.5 Kg Caustic Soda bring to a boil & then add 1.25 Kg ammonium Nitrate. This is just a short description of the whole process. Would you be so kind to share yours with me and also how I would obtain a satin finish if I would like to go for one as I am building a heave barreled varminter.

Regards
Rudie Potgieter

I wouldn't suggest doing a hot blue as a weekend project. You are talking a very nasty mess. You need steel tank, a cleaning tank, wash tank. Burners, you don't want a 300deg caustic solution cooking on your kitchen stove. I suggest you take it to someone if you want a hot blue or check out a rust blue. The heat set spray on finishes work ok and give more of a matt finish.

As to your question on the finish. In a hot blue the final appearance is totally based on the polish or lack there of before you blue it. The easiest way to get a satin is to sand or bead blast it.

First, to get a matt finish you bead blast . Second, who said anything about using a buffer?? It is a really bad idea for a beginner, it will really screw up the rifle. Third, don't get tangled up in hot caustic blueing at home. It is expensive, dangerious, and will rust everything in sight. All your tools will get trashed. Forget you ever heard of it. The best plan, and cheapest!, is to send it to a pro. Second best is a "quality" cold blue done by you. Polish everything with wet/dry paper end at about 400 grit, then proceed. Always back the paper with a flat object. Forget buffing wheels.

Thank you for the warning guys I will dearly take it to heart and will try the spray on finish first . If all else fails I will send it to the smith ... I think I should mention that I am trying to do as much as possible on this rifle myself.

Regards
Rudie

Rudie, I hope you meant ammonium hydroxide, the nitrate sounds scary to me (like explosion ). You might have trouble finding it after 9/11!
Regards, Curley

[ 05-29-2002, 03:17: Message edited by: curley ]

Ammonium nitrate is used by the tons as fertilizer. To make it explode you have to mix it with a hydrocarbon like diesel fuel and then it takes a blasting cap to set it off. You don't have to worry about it going off accidentally.

I saw a show on TNN called "All Things Outdoors" where they rebarreled a Mauser. They performed a blueing operation where they apparently used only boiling water in a tank, wiping chemicals on the gun when they had it outside the tank, then returning the gun to the boiling water. They wiped off the rust and reapplied the chemical several times with dunking in the tank in between. Now this is TV, and they could have been doing something else "behind the scenes", but I was wondering if there really is a method that only uses water in the tank, and not a tank of boiling chemicals.

but I was wondering if there really is a method that only uses water in the tank, and not a tank of boiling chemicals.

Yes Brownells and others sell "Express blues" These are a chemicals that produces rust on hot steel. Birchwoold Casey Plumb Brown, will work too. If you boil it after you get black. You can even make your own. The old formulas contain strong oxidizers and mecuric chloride, an dangerious brew for many reasons. Harry Pope put his eye out with this stuff. So you buy some safe and sane express blue from Brownells, here it the thing, where you going to get a tank big enough and a heat source? I can tell you that galvanized flashing and hot plates ain't going to work. I have done some good work with this proces but, not consistenly. Certainly not the first try.

Safety. I ALWAYS felt like crap after working with express blues and the birchwood casey express brown. I can almost taste the stuff as I write this. The process is a definate inhalation hazard. You are making vapors and aerisols. As you put the solution on the hot metal you are making lots of steam etc. Well you suck that stuff into your lungs. Do you own a good resporator? I don't mean a paper nusance mask. With the old formulas you are taking in mecury from the mecuric chloride. I also think acid vapors. It just ain't worth the trouble or risk.

On your amonium nitrate and lye formula. That is what the Germans used ontheir K-98s. Nice finish. Also a nice way to get seriously hurt. You are working with 300 degree molten caustics. One sneeze and your toast. Forget you ever heard of it!! I am serious. I am no safety bed wetter. Just got hurt enough times to learn my lesson. This stuff is not a good hobby enterprize. I would rate this as more dangerious than a home meth lab.

[ 05-29-2002, 20:36: Message edited by: scot ]

You are right about the ammonium Nitrate MarkWhite the most common form of garden fertilizer it is used in is LAN (Limestone Ammonium Nitrate. I will let you guys know as soon as I get around to blueing it next weekend

regards
Rudie

Using a Buffer isn't very hard and if you buff to 240 grit you will achieve a nice finish suitable for blueing. Do yourself a favor and once it's buffed send it out for Blueing. Don't even try to use a hot cautic blue unless you have the proper training and equipment. At 270 degrees F. one drop of this on unprotected skin will burn to the bone. If one drop gets in your eye, invest in a eye patch. you need all stainless equipment and a heat source adequate for the job. I hot tank Blue occasionally and the results are professional, but I also invested about $1000 for the system.-Rob

Found this formula on the net , all it's clear but what it's Spirits of nitre ?

HOT BLUEING

Sodium nitrate 1/4oz

Potassium nitrate 1/4oz

Bichloride of mercury 1/2oz

Potassium chlorate 1/2oz

Distilled water 10oz

Spirits of nitre 1/2oz

Also the basic formula I found it's 60 to 70 % NaOH and the rest NaNO3 ( sodium nitrate ) , no ammonium nitrate (?)

Daniel

[ 05-30-2002, 19:26: Message edited by: scot ]

" what it's Spirits of nitre ? "

Ethyl Nitrate, you don't need it.

What you need is a talking to. Can we talk? : )

Nottice the bichloride of mercurey?? AKA mecuric chloride. Very bad stuff. It will make you very sick and possibly insane. It is a cumulative poison that settles in your bones and stays forever. It is not treatable. Remember the Mad Hatter from Alice in Wonderland. That is what mercury poisoning does. This could be you. Mercury is bad, bad, bad. Consiter yourself warned.

On the hot caustic formula. Grrrrr!! You must be hell bent on........

Awwwwwww forget it, one more parking space for me when you take your self out.



HOT BLUEING

Sodium nitrate 1/4oz

Potassium nitrate 1/4oz

Bichloride of mercury 1/2oz

Potassium chlorate 1/2oz

Distilled water 10oz

Spirits of nitre 1/2oz

Also the basic formula I found it's 60 to 70 % NaOH and the rest NaNO3 ( sodium nitrate ) , no ammonium nitrate (?)

Daniel[/QB][/QUOTE]

For what it's worth, I've tried virtually every known Blueing approach and developed a few of my own and in the end keep coming back to hot Caustic( NaOH)/Sodium Nitrate mixtures. NO ammonium nitrate does not work!Brownells sells the proper stuff already pre-mixed and it works fine. Conc. Nitric Acid Rust Blueing also works very well, but takes too long and is even more dangerous to work with. I am a degreed organic chemist and know exactly how to and not to handle these materials. Trust me here! The el-cheapo approach to rust blueing using hot water and wipe-on/card off solutions( Dichropan) really is for amateurs as it consistently results in non-durable streaked blueing. In the end unless you spend about $1000 for the gear, you are much better off learning how to properly Buff your guns yourself( this is the real secret to a great Blue Job) and then sending it out to someone who is Batch Blueing. I've found that many times these guys will charge you only a minimum amout( sometimes less than $50) if you give them a nicely Buffed and degreased ( this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT) gun.-Rob

Scot,
The boiling water is for a rust blue..you put on the chemical and place it in a temp control cabinet or wait for a muggey day whatever...cord with a very soft wire wheel, boil and do that as many times as it requires...It's tricky and takes a lot of practice to achieve perfect results and is more complicated than I make out here... but its the best finish in the world..

Get some Pilkington from Brownells and learn to do it...but you cannot buff the metal, it must be finished by hones and paper...Cord last, then boil and then apply the first coat, then follow the directions. It is a lovely finish.

Thanks for that Ray.

He was talking about "Express Blue" and Hot caustic. An example of "Express Blue" can be found on P-391 of Dunlap's Gunsmithing book. It is a different animal from slow rust formulas, which often contain nails, hydrochloric acid and such. This stuff works like Birchwood Casey browning solution. The heat swab and sizzle stuff? Anyway the "Express blue" contains mercuic chloride, sodium nitrate, potassium chlorate, and potassium nitrate. Also calls for sprits of niter. I always substituted ethanol. The short of it is mecuric chloride, and a strong oxidizer in a water solution, swabbed on hot steel produces instant rust. I have had good luck with stannious chloride and amonium nitrate also. I have done good jobs with this stuff.

The toxic hazards of mercury were covered earlier.

Now for the explosive hazard of the strong oxidizers. I also had a serious accident involving the potassium chlorate and a strong reducer, blowing the crap out of me and ending up in the ER. I do have extensive experience with this class of blues. I therefore can not recomend mixing your own solutions. Ten bucks for a proven solution, bought from Brownell's is the best insurance you can get. I was hoping to save the eager beaver newbie some pain and scars that I got for my trouble.

Really the best plan is to prep it yourself. Use ten bucks worth of wet dry paper, do a carefull hand polish. Then let one of the smiths that blue regurarly dunk it in their hot caustic tank. They are usually happy to see an interested amatuer and want to help.

Well. I built a bluing setup for myself. Used 16 ga. cold roll sheet metal for the tanks.1 for degreaser, 1 for brownells oxy #7 bluing salts.1 for rinse.
I also made a set of smaller tanks for actions or handgun frames. I use prophane gas burners for heat. the burners were collected from old turkey cookers and a couple from a gas stove with open burners. the frames from the cookers work to hold the small tanks.
If you have a little common sense and a sense of adventure it is not to hard to figure out, it is and can be dangerous. any of these chemicals used even the cold stuff used for touchup will probably kill you, so dont drink it.
The mix is critical to obtain the correct temp for a good blueing. if you set this up according to Brownells instructions and follow it to the word you will be amazed at the quality.
please approach this with caution
Dave

[ 06-01-2002, 05:30: Message edited by: HIVELOSITY ]

Rudie, I've been hot bluing for years and all of the above cautions are probably the most important part of bluing. Brownells can supply all you need with instructions for hot or cold bluing, but, as was mentioned, you would probably do best to finish the parts the way you want and take them to someone already set up for this. The metal needs to have the finish you want before it is blued. Bluing only works like a stain and will not change the finish on the metal.
I use polishing and buffing wheels for shiny finishes and bead blast for the matt finishes.
Good luck.
Ed

Guys

Sorry I havent been up to date on the post. I was away for the weekend on a hunting trip . Not the best I have been on but at least got myself a Rowland Ward Blesbuck . Back to the blueing topic I think you all saved my a%$^ from some serious medical bills . Thanks for the advice and keep them coming, I enjoy reading the experiences everyone had with their experiments.

Regards
Rudie

I have been rust bluing for a while now and decided to setup a caustic bluing as an option. I can tell you that while you can get hurt with the caustic bluing a few simple safety procdures take most of the risk out.
Ventilation, eye protection, and neoprene gloves make things pretty darn safe.
I use LynxLine Blue-Black salts in my tank. One other thing. Compared to slow rust bluing, caustic bluing is a breeze.

my 2�
Go to www.gunbroker.com
do a search for
custom blueing job (it's mispelled in the auction)

Tell him you want the super matte finish... and spend $100 round trip.

I've done hot, cold, parkerizing, and painting.. screw it... Mark can do it for $100, and i don't have to worry about it, ever.
Now, when I build that rust blue box....
good hunting
jeffe

Rudie, years ago a fellow gave me two steel blueing tanks and a nice stand to hold them all. I set this up in my garage and built myself some gas burners out of pipe to run full length under the tank. Next I bought a mandrel and hooked it up to a 1/2 horse electric motor
Tnen I ordered several different sized buffing pads, together with about 4 different grits of buffing compound.

I asked my favorite gunsmith what solution to use and he said I could order the stuff from Brownells or I could build my own. I got his formula which was basically lye and lawn fertilizer.

Just as I was about done getting everything ready a neighbor came over and looked at my set up. When I remarked that I wished I had some old junky gun to experiment with and practice on, he produced an old .22 rifle that looked like it had been dug up from the Russian front. PERFECT VICTIM

I went to work on it with the buffing wheels and polishing compound. You turn on the wheels, slap on a pad, goo it up from your big stick of compound and polish away. The notion of doing this my hand rubbing is some of the silliest advice posted here and certain to give you a streaky stupid looking product.

It was actually a lot of fun polishing away years of rust and pits. I had nothing to lose with this old rifle and so I polished and polished with my different compounds. Got all the pits buffed out and the gun cleaned up very nicely, then I started playing with the really fine polishing compounds. When I quit polishing on that old rifle the thing glistened like a mirror from the back of the receiver to the crown on the muzzle.

Finally I fired up my tanks and added my chemicals to the blueing tank. Hooked the rifle up by coathanger. One end in the muzzle and one end in the action so I had a handle to pick it up from the tank. I put the bolt, trigger guard etc. (also polished) in the parts basket with the tanks and I cooked and cooked. The hardest part was getting the solution hot enough with my homemade burners. But when you get to solution up around the right temp (just below boiling) things start happening.

All in all it took me several very hot hours of mucking around in the garage to get it right. When the rifle finally looked like it had a deep dark finish, I moved it over to the rinse tank, then took it outside and washed the thing off thoroughly with the garden hose, inside and out.

Next I took the rifle back into the garage and totally cleaned and oiled it up inside and out. I let the rifle cool back to normal, then wiped it down and reassembled. The finish product was an incredablly beautiful blue job. Very deep, dark and lustrous. When I took the rifle back to its owner, he didn't believe it was even the same rifle!

I blued quite a few rifles after that, mostly just for the fun of it. All turned out beautiful and with as good or better a blue than you will see on the most expensive rifles.

Blueing is not rocket science. It IS damned hot miserable work and once you fire up the tanks and start, be prepared to ruin about a half day before you are done. The fertilizer/lye formula will blue as good or better than anything there is.

The solution is naturally caustic as hell. Get some really good neopreme gloves and some safety goggles. Be SURE no pets or kids can get anywhere near your tanks...ever. Especially when you are cooking.

The whole process will put out a LOT of moisture in your garage and obviously won't do anything in the garage that will rust or is sensitive to moisture any good. It is just really not a good "in house" project. The idea of doing this in a kitchen is madness.

The best situation would be some old shed out back of the house with good ventilation. Believe me, you won't want to hang around the tanks when they are cooking any more than necessary.

Doing this "outside" sounds good but really isn't due to the difficulties of controlling the heat. You need some place more or less enclosed but with good ventilation.

The secret to blueing is actually not so much in your solution...but in your polish job. If you want a "mirror finish" then polish with your fine buffing compounds until the metal looks like a mirror or chrome bumper. If you want a softer, sort of matte finish, then stop polishing after the course polishing compound and the rifle is polished clean and smooth but still has that "machined" or somewhat course look. A real matte finish probably would require actual sand blasting. I never did any.

Whatever the metal looks like when you stop polishing, just imagine it now with the "blue" on it. This is what the gun is going to look like.

I can't tell you strongly enough the battle will be won or lost at the polishing wheel. The blueing process is little more than heating water and most any idiot can do that. Just remember it is some very dangerous water!

If you are pretty gifted in common sense and caution, you will do OK. If you are a bit of a goofus and have a big stupid dog that likes to get into everything and under your feet or you've got little kids running around.....forget it. This is NOT a project to be taken lightly.

If this is the one and only time you ever want to do this, you would be well advised to find a gunsmith or someone in your area who will do it for you. Polish it yourself if you like. In fact that much IS probably a good idea as you can be sure of getting a good polish job. Many who blue don't spend any time on the polish and so their blues always come out mediocre at best.

Hope some of this helps. Blueing is sort of like entering the priesthood. It's not a step you want to take lightly.

Do I still do it? No. I moved and gave the fellow back his tanks. Would I do it again? Yes, if I had a good place for the operation. It was fun in a masachistic sort of way. It's a miserable sport, my friend. But seeing a beautiful gun come out of the salts is pretty rewarding.

Good luck.
Let us know what you decide. BE CAREFUL
This isn't like dying easter eggs.

Well after some serious thought on the subject I decided it wont be enough PT to try & blue the gun myself . But I am almost finished with the metal work on the rifle , and I have it as clear as anything you have seen, the smith will do the blueing . The only reason I wanted to to this myself is that every single piece of that rifle so far I have done myself , except the jobs that is required by law to be done by a competent smith. I even done the stock myself from a semi finished uninletted stock , I will sure post a picture of the rifle on here , and everyone that has been so helpfull are welcome to give your opinion on my own piece of artwork.

Regards
Rudie

I have found the secret to good blue is in the water you use...I use distilled pure water for rust blue and caustic blue...but I farm out the hot blueing, it's a pain. I don't like it anyway.