Let's say I have a blued steelCZ550 in 416 rigby, and I want to make the surface impervious to the weather.what would my options be and how much would it cost?

DLC coating is an outstanding finish. Very hard(70rockwell) and very corrosion resistant. Price would be around $300.

Robar out of AZ makes a finish called RoGuard. Now they have updated to II and can make it just about any color you want. It is pretty doggone durable and will do just what you want.

How about an oily rag in your pocket??

Or

Cerokote and $250

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
How about an oily rag in your pocket??

Or

Cerokote and $250

I tried the oily rag thing. And since I have bacon for breakfast I always soaked the rag in bacon grease. I always had the belief the dogs were just fond of my company.
If I want the hunting dogs to leave me alone so I can shoot some deer, I have to find a durable coating for my rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
How about an oily rag in your pocket??

Or something from ROBAR...

Black Ice
Bearcoat
Ceracote

I have three guns that have been cerakoted and they work great in the weather as long as you remember that the bore is still plain old exposed chrome moly

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
How about an oily rag in your pocket??

Or

Cerokote and $250

I tried the oily rag thing. And since I have bacon for breakfast I always soaked the rag in bacon grease. I always had the belief the dogs were just fond of my company.
If I want the hunting dogs to leave me alone so I can shoot some deer, I have to find a durable coating for my rifle.

Which Is why I suggested cerokote. Tough stuff and relatively easy to apply

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
How about an oily rag in your pocket??

Or

Cerokote and $250

I tried the oily rag thing. And since I have bacon for breakfast I always soaked the rag in bacon grease. I always had the belief the dogs were just fond of my company.
If I want the hunting dogs to leave me alone so I can shoot some deer, I have to find a durable coating for my rifle.

I tried the oily rag thing, due to spontaneous combustion I got comments like, "is that an oily rag in your pocket, or are you glad to see me?"

Originally posted by kcstott:
How about an oily rag in your pocket??

I've found that a couple of coats of Johnson's Past Wax does a great job too. One application will usually last for a week long hunt.

I'm not trying to talk you out of coating your CZ, just mentioning an alternative.

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
How about an oily rag in your pocket??

Or

Cerokote and $250

I tried the oily rag thing. And since I have bacon for breakfast I always soaked the rag in bacon grease. I always had the belief the dogs were just fond of my company.
If I want the hunting dogs to leave me alone so I can shoot some deer, I have to find a durable coating for my rifle.

I'll have to use that trick bear hunting, my rifle can double as bait!
Don

Well My comment was said tongue in cheek but it's actually a cheep alternative. Prevention beats cure anytime and I don't like paint on firearms but Cerokote is not paint at least not in the traditional picture coming to mind with a thick layer that will eventually peal off.

I like my guns Blued or Parkerized and I keep an oily rag handy. I also don't fret to much on the weather that's where you should change rifles in most cases. Go stainless with tupperware for bad weather. Wait did I just give you an excuse to buy another rifle??? I believe i did.

Although Kilimanjaro Rifles (formerly Serengeti Rifles) is no more, I have sales literature from them. What may interest you - considering their bottom-of-the-line models retailed for more than $6000.00 - is their rifles were finished with a ceramic coating.

"Which ceramic coating?" you might reasonably ask. That information I do not have. I know, though, that there is/was a specialty shop in Kalispell or Columbia Falls, Montana, that does/did such work. And Kilimanjaro-Serengeti was in Kalispell.

Hope this helps.

QpQ....works well...

505ED is correct. Melonite QPQ is excellent. Military is using it alot today on their weapons. It is a treatment for inside the bore as well as the outside of your metal work.

quote:

Originally posted by Naphtali:
Although Kilimanjaro Rifles (formerly Serengeti Rifles) is no more, I have sales literature from them. What may interest you - considering their bottom-of-the-line models retailed for more than $6000.00 - is their rifles were finished with a ceramic coating.

"Which ceramic coating?" you might reasonably ask. That information I do not have. I know, though, that there is/was a specialty shop in Kalispell or Columbia Falls, Montana, that does/did such work. And Kilimanjaro-Serengeti was in Kalispell.

Hope this helps.

They used cerokote. Done right, it can look like a nice rust blue.

It may look OK, But it doesn't protect the bore if it matters to you.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by Naphtali:
Although Kilimanjaro Rifles (formerly Serengeti Rifles) is no more, I have sales literature from them. What may interest you - considering their bottom-of-the-line models retailed for more than $6000.00 - is their rifles were finished with a ceramic coating.

"Which ceramic coating?" you might reasonably ask. That information I do not have. I know, though, that there is/was a specialty shop in Kalispell or Columbia Falls, Montana, that does/did such work. And Kilimanjaro-Serengeti was in Kalispell.

Hope this helps.

They used cerokote. Done right, it can look like a nice rust blue.

The place that did my rifles doubled the amount of hardener, at the suggestion of the Cerokote Company, which brought out a blue like finish that is as good as I have ever seen.

Titanium Aluminum nitride (TALON). Super hard, super slick, very corrosion resistant. Also hard to find someone to apply it. Titanium Nitride is the gold colored coating on drill bits. The aluminum additive creates a flat black finish or very dark gray.
I think Weatherby offered it on the guide series Mark V's years ago.

Titanium Aluminum nitride is awesome---but very, very pricey...QPQ is the hardest finish that is affordable I know of...about 250 to 300 to do a rifle...and it will out last the shooter...

I had one rifle done in TALON. It is a mod 70 stainless classic. It was years ago and about $600.00. I wanted what I thought was the best through quite a bit of research but like many have mentioned there may be others that are 1/2 the price that will outlast us.It was a rifle conceived as a brown bear gun and take on all conditions/elements Alaska could throw at it.

QUOTE]Originally posted by 505ED:
Titanium Aluminum nitride is awesome---but very, very pricey...QPQ is the hardest finish that is affordable I know of...about 250 to 300 to do a rifle...and it will out last the shooter...[/QUOTE]

Mimi in Arkansas charges $60+freight for a barrel.

QPQ and Melonite® require high temperature soaks. I believe soaking temperature exceeds heat treating temperature in many-to-most cases. How do the after-market companies identify alloy being nitrided, its heat treat, and handle restoration of heat treat?

Additional concerns that need be addressed include: voiding warranty; refusal of manufacturer to repair/refurbish/replace anything to do with firearm. And were I.D. of barrel soaked, how does the eventual degradation of nitriding affect barrel consistency and accuracy - that is, eventually I.D. will have extremely hard patches randomly intermixed with soft patches. Will these differences act as abrasives? If the answer is "yes" or "I don't know," how is I.D. polished to even differences in diameter caused by wear differences?

Processing metal during manufacture is a different bag of cats. Manufacturer has specified with what he begins - and ends.

I will post this again. I think I did this before. If you make a call to MMI-Trutech you will find their Melonite QPQ does not require temps to affect the heat treatment of the barrel. They are doing a tremendous amount of barrels for the military. This email came from a military armorer. They call it isonite.






Butch,

You may find this interesting.

I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.

As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).

As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.

Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.

Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.

I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.

One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.

I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.

Best of luck!

Butch,

Does the Isonite color the barrels?

Thanks,
Steve

Black,
I polished some of my BR barrels and they came out with what I call the old Weatherby gloss black.

A poor photo. Has a lot of fingerprints on it.

Thanks, Butch. Looks great.

I'm going to try one.

Steve

That looks pretty good, Butch. I,ve been wanting to do that to one of mine once I get the sights put on. What did you use to polish that barrel? I,ve got no experience yet with any of the coatings, so a total newby question...

I did mine in the lathe. It is easy to do if it is a barrel only. Don't skip a grit from 320-800. Might be a pain in the ass with any sights or other things attached.

Contact Randy Lanier;

Send to :
MMI-Trutec, Inc.
2609 N. 12th Avenue
Paragould, Ar. 72450
ph 870-236-6920
Attn: Rodney Lanier

Dear Sir,

I am the plant Manager of MMI. Well as Joel has said do not accept individual accounts. However a long time in house employee has assumed this business. He will use our bath with a surcharge. There is not any need in sending these parts to an outside source and then us. You can send them directly to Rodney Lanier rlanier77@hotmail.com. They will come directly to MMI Arkansas facility attention Rodney. His charge is $60 per barrel and $75 for handguns and $55 shot gun barrel. check made out in his name included in the package plus $20 shipping or an ups account #. You can contact him at 870-236-6920

Thanks,

Mike Wooldridge
Plant Manag
MMI-Trutec
Paragould, Arkansas

Randy is not a gunsmith and will not disassemble your firearm. They will not do all receivers either. You need to contact Randy.

Ten four! Thank you, appreciate it!

Butch,

What kind of thickness does it add? I see your chamber markings on the picture. Did you apply those before the application of the isonite?

Do you compensate at all when you cut the barrel tenon to length for headspace, or is the inside of the chamber offset by the same amount?

Thanks,
Steve

Steve,
It is not a coating. For simple terms you could call it about a .0002" case hardening. Dimensions don't change and you won't be able to go back and do any machining. It is about 65Rc hardness. I've tried to file it and it won't file.

Just got an email from Joel Kendrick. He said Randy is still doing the work, but through his own company.

Butch,

Rodney is no longer processing directly at MMI-Trutec as of Feb. 30 2013.
Their was a conflict of interest by Rodney using the process facility and also misinformation as to whom was doing the processing. Customers thought they were sending their components MMI-Trutec to Rodney as a company Rep. for processing but that was not the case ,he has a separate company R&T Custom Gun Coatings. This misinformation has now been corrected to most of the current customers.

If any one individual needs to have components processed they can call and contact me directly at MMI-Turtec and I can give them contacts to send their components for processing. This is established or new companies that send batches for processing directly to MMI-Trutec.

Would Your company Shade Tree Eng. like to set up an account where individual send their components to you and you get a batch together and send to MMI-Trutec for processing. If you are interested please give me a call to discuss.

Mike Wooldridge is no longer with the company I am the Plant Manager at the MMI-Trutec Arkansas facility.
Joel Kendrick
Plant Manager
MMI-Trutec
Paragould, Arkansas

Butch:

Thanks for all that fantastic info, awesome stuff!

To your knowledge, is the QPQ process compatible with Cr-Mo receivers?

I have a Cr-Mo receiver with a SS bbl that I was contemplating getting cerakoted, but if this (QPQ) were an option for doing the whole thing, then that may be the ticket.

On a related note - do you happen to know if SS and CrMo will take on a different color after the treatment?

Thx,

Bob

Bob,
I know the barrels are the same shade of black. They do need to know the material before treating. I know Jerry Stiller has his bolt bodies done, Bat has had some of their receivers done. You would need to contact them. In my experience you need to either send a high polish or bead blasted parts. I sent some BR barrels with the OD as I received them from the barrel people. They just came out almost like a bead blasted and blued finish. I wasn't concerned about the look.

ok, thanks, Butch.

I will contact them and find out. Will relay my findings.

Bob