I'm building a .450 Cambaco rifle based on a P 17 action. It is almost finished by now and I will start developing the loads for a hunt in Africa.
I would like to change the military type trigger.
Does somebody has experience with other triggers?

Bongo500, I used a Timney Sportsman trigger on my P14 I built into a 444 marlin, and couldn't be happier I assume the same trigger will work on the P17. Smokey

The over ride type triggers are fine. If you convert to cock on opening with a low priced kit you rifle will not fire reliabley with the non issue trigger. The firing pin fall is too short. So leave the cock on closing alone and use a better trigger. The only option for both is to conver to cock on opening by welding up the cocking cam and re engineering the cocking piece. Not easy or cheap.

So Scott, you are saying it is better to keep the action "cock on close" and get a nice Timney trigger? If that is the case that is what I am going to do with my P17.

bongo500: I just went to Timney's web site and they have nice triggers for the P17/P14 for only $43!! Here is the addy...
www.timneytriggers.com
click on specials....then directory...then enfield

Dayton Traister makes a inexpensive trigger for the 1917 Enfield that works extremely well with their cock on opening kit. I personally think that the cock on closing feature of these rifles is an abomination and not appropriate for a decent hunting rifle! There is a fair amount of hand fitting required, but nothing that a reaonably adept person can't do with just a file, a dremel tool (with polishing tips) and some careful following of the directions. No welding is required, although you need to modify the angle of the cocking ramp of the bolt. I have done a few of these conversions and they come out unbelievably smoothly.-Rob

So Scott, you are saying it is better to keep the action "cock on close" and get a nice Timney trigger?

It is up to you. You need to decide if you want the single stage trigger or the cock on open kit.

If you don't mind spending lots of money you can have someone re-engineer the rifle. I have done it both ways. I have a P-14 in 45-70 that has the original striker system and a Timney trigger. I used to have a P-17 with just the cock on opening kit. The issue trigger was fitted with a take up adjustment screw. It had a decent trigger. I also have an extensively re-engineered P-14 in 7 mag. It has a tang safety, trigger of my own design, and re-worked striker and cocking system. In retrospect it was too much work for what I got. Sure is pretty though.

Rob,

"[QB]Dayton Traister makes a inexpensive trigger for the 1917 Enfield that works extremely well with their cock on opening kit."

I'm interested,

How is the Dayton cock opening unit different then the Numrich ones. Seems to me no matter what, you have a 5/16" striker fall with the factory cam. Even with a striker spring that takes a Gorilla to assemble I always had iffy ignition. Using an over ride trigger with that situation slowed the striker enough to cause spotty ignition where it didn't with the military trigger.

Scot

Thank you for the input guys. I will order both Timney and Dayton triggers from Brownells, but will still keep the cook on closing feature as it does not bothers me.

No one even metioned the Canjar trigger. I got rid of the Timney and went with the Canjar. I love it.

Canjar makes great triggers, but the waiting period is long. Just out of curiosity, what is a 450 Cambaco? - Dan

I have not played with the Numrich kit, but the Dayton Traister uses a redesigned cocking piece and much heavier spring. Ignition has been quite reliable with no failures to ignite. Now I have to add, that my 1917 was converted to a 470MBOGO and that I used a P-14 bolt. In the process, I welded up the original bolt hole, opened up the bolt face and re-drilled the bolt hole for a .062 firing pin. I'm sure this helps the ignition. -Rob

Personally, I like the cock-on-close of the P-14 and M-17. I just make an adjustable wedge which slips under the sear assembly and takes up the slack. Most of them that I have, have a decent trigger pull after you are past the slack. The original trigger configuration is, ergonomically, one of the best. Also, since you are not cocking the action when you are opening the bolt, all the energy goes into extraction which, to me, is more positive.

I’ll second Rob’s comments about the Dayton-Traister cock-on-closing kit for the P14/M17 Enfield – I have one installed in a rifle built on a seriously customized P14 action, and it is excellent. The principal advantage of the D-T kit over the straight ‘drop-in’ kits like the Numrich Arms/Gun Parts job is that the firing pin fall is slightly longer, ensuring adequate impact energy and reliable ignition. Also, as Rob says, when properly installed, bolt operation is very slick and smooth. Assuming that all the other parts fit together properly, that is - it’s not a magic, cure-all.

The key to the way in which the D-T kit provides the longer firing pin fall is that the cocking cam notch in the bolt body must be cut deeper and re-shaped, to work in conjunction with the re-proportioned cocking piece. (which is supplied as part of the kit, along with a much more powerful firing pin spring) The bolt rim and the holding notch do not need any major alteration, just some minor smoothing-up. The original firing pin does not need to be altered, either – the re-positioned dry-fire stop in the new cocking piece gives the correct protrusion. The end result is a net firing pin retraction - on bolt lift - of 0.235in, compared to about 0.115in with the original set up. In my rifle, firing pin fall to full protrusion is 0.305in.

Scot, I’m curious about how the ‘Numrich’ type cock-on-opening kits can provide a firing pin fall of 5/16in, unless some of the retraction is obtained by the forward push of the bolt. (in which case, it is not really cock-on-opening) I own a few Enfields, currently all P14s, and with all of them, the firing pin retraction on bolt lift is 0.115in, give or take a few thou. The additional retraction obtained on bolt turn-down varies slightly from one of my rifles to another, but on none of them is it greater than 0.090in.

The figures may be slightly different for the M17 Enfield. I don’t have a sample to measure, but one book I have referred to (The Bolt Action, by Stuart Otteson) quotes firing pin retraction figures of: 0.117 opening, 0.459 push forward, 0.128 closing, and 0.009 trigger pull. (with the original two-stage trigger fitted) Taking out the ‘push forward’ retraction of 0.459in leaves 0.254in, which is still a long way short of 5/16in.

The only Enfield with a Numrich kit installed that I have examined myself – a P14 - was clearly functioning in cock-on-opening mode (definitely no further retraction occurring on the forward push of the bolt) and it had a net firing pin fall of rather less than 1/4in. I can’t remember the exact figure. The owner of the rifle, a friend of mine, told me that it occasionally misfired, so he soon abandoned THAT modification to it. I’ve heard plenty of other stories of ignition failures occurring with these kits, and with original cocking pieces modified to provide cock-on-opening and a very short firing pin fall. I have also heard people saying that they use them and find them quite satisfactory, so the verdict on them is certainly not unanimous, but none the less ....

I would have no hesitation about recommending the Dayton-Traister cock-on-opening kit. Both mathematical calculation of the firing pin impact energy it provides, and healthy looking primer indentations, indicate to me that it is up to the task. I have verified that mine works fine with a Timney trigger, a Canjar, and a special, custom made job. I can’t comment on the performance of the D-T trigger – somebody else got that part of the kit that I bought.

These triggers actually work much better than they did with the original cock-on-closing system – they can definitely be set for a crisper let-off. The reason isn’t hard to find. With the cock-on-opening set up, the ‘overlap’ at the disengagement point in an over-ride type trigger unit only has to be sufficient to withstand the impact force of the cocking piece dropping off the bolt rim and on to the sear. However, in a cock-on-closing set up, it has to withstand the full force of the forward push of the bolt, and this can be quite considerable when the bolt is worked smartly.

I found that with the original cock-on-closing system, if I adjusted either my Timney or Canjar trigger to be free of perceptible pre-release movement (creep) I had to close the bolt very slowly and gingerly or it would ‘run-down’ - in other words, fail to cock. That was quite unacceptable to me (and range officers tend to frown of such set ups, too!) so I had to set the trigger engagement to the point where reliable cocking could be assured, and put up with some slight but very irritating ‘creep’. When I installed the D-T kit on my best Enfield, I found that I could put any of my over-ride triggers in it, set them up to be free of ANY perceptible creep, slam the bolt shut to the limit of my strength and sensibilities, and it would never fail to cock.

I think the D-T kit is a worthwhile modification, if one wants to ‘go the whole hog’ on sporterizing an Enfield. The economics of doing all the necessary work are, I think, decidedly dubious, but so what – it’s fun, and if things are done right, you finish up with a very nice rifle. My descendents can do the worrying about the potential re-sale of my rifles – I’m not!

I'm with ezell , for me the cock on close it's OK , reliable and trouble free , (I have more experience with the Swedes than the P 17 ) , actually I'm installing a CZ/Brno 416 Rigby barrel on a P17 action , I don't need a adjustable trigger for a big bore , and I prefer not to play with the bolt cam it could end in a unreliable rifle , ( and here in Spain are not easy to have an extra P 17 bolt to replace ) , Bongo , what's a 450 Cambaco ?

Saludos

[ 07-26-2002, 19:53: Message edited by: scot ]

I would still like to know what a 450 Cambaco is. Anyone? - Dan

Scot, I�m curious about how the �Numrich� type cock-on-opening kits can provide a firing pin fall of 5/16in,

Looks like you are all over this subject. I recall reading 5/16 somewhere, Dunlap's book I think. I am at work and can't measure my rifle's inner workings. The jist of all of it is that the Numrich kit can cause poor ignition and in my experience, if you couple that with an aftermarket trigger you are likely to have problems. You had that one figured out and could tell us all exactly why.

I will definately look at the DT kit next time I get a bug to build a rifle. I had the fore-sight to buy a bunch of $29 P-14 drill rifles may years ago so I will spend the money on the good kit. I have learned over the years to spend money on good parts to make a good rifle. Thanks for the great info.

Scot

Thanks for all this information guys.

Dan Belisle and Daniel M, .450 Cambaco is a wildcat. I was given some brass for a 9,3x70 rifle some time ago and decided to blow it out to 458 with a 40 degrees shoulder. A little later I discovered that the old 9,3x70 was based on the 404 Jeffery. So it isn't really something new. I shortened the cases to 72 mm, made two reamers (chamber and rel. dies), got a barrel blank from LWalther and started based on a P17 action.

After fireforming some brass I loaded it with 500 grains Hornady and 100 grains Norma 204, as a result I measured 723 m/s.(barrel was 650 mm long)
Then I cut the barrel to 580 mm, soldered scope bases, mounted a Leupold 1,5-5x 20 or so and increased the charge to 110 grains of N 204, and got 738 m/s. The best 3 shot group at 100 meters was about 11/2 inches. I was very happy with the results, made a bigger mag box to hold five rounds down + 1 in the chamber. After that I decided to order some brass with the right stamp on it from Horneber.
Now the rifle is with a friend who is making a stock that fits me exactly. It probably will be back this week.
Daniel M this gunsmith and stockmaker is the best stock maker I have ever seen. He is your neighbor in Spain.

I will post some photos as soon as I discover how it works.

I will take this rifle to a PAC hunt in Moz next Sept.

The name was proposed by a friend in honour of Ze Pardal and his books, one of the great hunters of Mozambique. I spoke to Mr. Pardal and he liked the idea. So we settled for the name .450 Cambaco. Cambaco is an old elefant in Shangan language, and it sounds good to me.

Daniel M reading your post again I saw that you are in Cantabria, you must visit my friend gunsmith/stockmaker and watch him working, he is an artist. He is in Eibar, it must be close to you.

Saludos

Bongo

Thank you. Sounds like a fun project. - Dan

Bongo send some photos hope I could post it

Daniel

http://www.niwala.com/cazadores/upload/check%20piece.JPG

http://www.niwala.com/cazadores/upload/lat%20der%20adel.JPG
http://www.niwala.com/cazadores/upload/lat%20der.JPG

Thank you for the pictures. It looks like the project is coming along nicely. - Dan