Ok I am at a loss and need some suggestions...

New Win Mod 70 30-06 shoots three shoots two almost touching and a flyer. No particular order but there is always a flyer 1.5-3" away from the other two. I have tried three different loadings, bench and prone positions nothing helps.

(Talley mounts, Zeiss scope, safari sling)

Thanks in advance, John

First off and I'm sure you allready did this .
Did you check your action screws ,mount screws and ring screws.
If that checks out
My guess is that you may be the factor.
Try removing the sling ,puting sand bags under the forearm and the stock .
I put my hand under the forearm and grip gentely.
Trying to do everything the same ,see what happens .
If that fails also you are left with bad ammo or scope.

Johnch

I'm with Johnch on this one. First remove the scope and make sure the bases are tight. Try a different scope of known accuracy. I don't care if it is a Zeiss, any scope can be bad, new or used. Make sure your action screws are properly tightened. On a Model 70, the front and rear should be tight and the middle one only tight enough to not fall out.

When a rifle wants to shoot good groups then throws a flyer, it's usually because something is moving. The scope, the mounts, action in the bedding. You just have to chase them down one at a time.

The subject of flyers is a total myth!
Follow this:...a shooter shoots a five shot group and all the first four bulletholes are in a 1" circle and then he shoots a fifth shot and it's outside the circle by a full half inch. Is the fifth one a flyer?....why not the third one?...the second one?...the actual group was 1.5" and the actual flyers was the second and fourth that "flew to the inside"
Each shot has a statistical chance to hit a certain mark and the laws of statistics will prevail. As long as I shoot three shot groups the chances I will "seem" to have fliers is high. If I start shooting all my actual groups at ten shots the fliers seem to disappear because they are actually a part of the group.

There can be honest reasons for this appearance.....a bad batch of bullets is the most common with one in six made off center.... Rare maybe but it happens.

I strongly recommend you count that flyer as part of the group.....start shgooting 10-shot groups and you'll see what I'm saying.

quote:

Originally posted by Ropes:
New Win Mod 70 30-06 shoots three shoots two almost touching and a flyer.

What rubbish.
There are no "flyers" in three-shot-"groups".

Shot proper groups (at least 2x5 shots, with a backer target to show the 10) and *then* come back here.

Carcano

Ropes, this is a familiar story. Yes, you need to check the screws, the scope, etc. If that works, ignore what follows.

I generally give a gun one or two sessions at the range to show me something. Then I pull the barrelled action and remove the pressure point from the stock. The barrel channel tools do this very well. If it's a wood stock, be sure you use some finishing agent (I useTru-Oil) to seal the bare wood.

I have yet to find a gun that didn't shoot better with the barrel floated.

Ropes, they have a point about three shot groups. A five shot group, with cooling time, tells you a lot more about the capability of a rifle.

This may be picking nits but in my mind a "flyer" is a function of the overall group variance. For example, if the 3,5 or 10 shot group is extremely tight and a single shot is out, this could, in fact, be highly statistically improbable and therefore more likely explained by some other factor (scope, hold ammo, etc) rather than the random dispersion around the mean center than the gun shoots toward. The less accurate the rifle, the more "out" a flyer has to be to be truely unexplainable by random chance.

The bugger is, of course, that variance is itself a function of sample size and 3 shot groups are no where near large enough to define a mean group size with useful confidence intervals. If you had a history with the rifle and knew what to expect and later with a change in components, ammo, retinal detachment etc. you began to see eratic shots you could formally evaluate whether these were likely due to an extrinsic factor rather than the expected random variability of the rifle's accuracy itself.

I actually had a rifle due this to me about which I had enough info to know something was up. Turned out the scope went T.U.

I think Vapodog said it best. watched a friend shoot 5-3 shot groups on five identical targets and never adjusted his scope. He had 3 groups that were a little over a half inch and two groups with two shots close and two 'fliers'. He then prodly declared his rifle was a half inch shooter as he said the two groups with 'fliers' were pulled shots due to his own shooting error. I looked at his target and noticed that with his three good groups, that they were located at differing points around his aimpoint which was the center of a square 'bullseye'. I pointed this out to him and he did not quite get it so I took a piece of quite transparent papet towel and traced the square bull and then traced in the placement of the shots on each target and the group was a 15 shot group quite nicely spread out over 1 3/4" and all the 'fliers' were within this group. In effect his half inch gun in reality was your typical factory 2' and under shooter. When I'm looking for a consistent load, instead of shooting several individual groups I will shoot 10 or more rounds into the same group and get a realistic picture of what a rifle will do with that load.

Can't argue with any of this, so some random thoughts.
As for 10 shot groups, where do I get perfect conditions to last for the duration.
Some people would be supprised how much effect a slight wind change will have on a group, and not just horizontaly either.

A recient mag.article using a machine rest and quality factory ammo, showed a "flyer" quite likely over 10 shots.

Some people would also be supprised that not all shots taken over a bench rest are perfect.

One character was telling me his shots group better as he shoots and the barrel fouls up, however in the real world a group will inverably get worse if one keeps shooting long enough.

Personaly, rather than 10 shot groups, I continually shoot as little as one shot over time, from a clean barrel, and if it's where I expect it to be, and if necessary 2 more go close, that's all I ask of a light hunting rifle.
A target or varmint rifle will need to do 10 or more.
John L.

I will shoot 5 shot groups today or tommorow, after I tighten the various screws.

Thank You for the help, John


PS some of you need to eat some midol once in awhile..

Jal, Your post is the reason why they invented windflags. If you were at the Super Shoot right now, you would see hundreds of them. Thats how benchresters get those one hole 5 shot groups in competition. They have to shoot five shots into a group in a timed event and have to deal with what ever wind condition is present when they are shooting. They are masters of reading the wind condition and waiting for the exact condition for each shot or if there is a change in wind then they have to calculate the winds effect on the bullets flight and move their aimpoint and shoot and let the wind blow the bullet into the group. To win in a competition like these you pretty much have to shoot several 5 shot groups and the average of all these groups when measured must be less than 2/10's of an inch to even be competitive.

Websters Rifleman's Dictionary defines "Flyer" as:"...any round that makes your group larger than you thought it should be."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oscar Makonka:
Jal, Your post is the reason why they invented windflags.[End Quote]

So you mean my piece of toilet paper on a stick is not high tech enough?
Besides, I believe these Benchrest fellas, if they don't like the look of a wind change, they can fire an uncounted shot at a seperate target.

Us ole full-bore/field shooters would call that cheating.
John L.

I always shoot three shot groups I dont think many factory barrels can take the heat of a five shot group and stay in. I would check the screws and for high spots on the stock. I have a ruger that had the same type of problem after my gunsmith worked the trigger and scrapped away high spots it shoots a small three shot group at 100. Bench rest guns use five shot groups and a custom barrel.

875x:

the point is that you rifle in its original state did not have "flyers", but rather shot large groups. Now it shoots smaller groups after being worked on. The way the internet is, folsk think it is terrible if rifle's do not shoot 1/2" groups. THere are several problems here.

People who know what an actual 1/2" rilfe is know how to measure groups, count everything in the aggregate (don't throw out "called flyers, wind gust shots, whatever), have the proper equipment, and know how to use it. On Benchrest.com, varmint hunters used to always claim loudly that they had a .25" rifle. THey also refused all offers to show up at a registered match and prove it! THese internet wonders were always shot without flags, usually over a truck hood or very light portable bench, at best a $40 Hoppes front rest, no flags, varmint bulets, etc., etc.

I know that I sure don't have a real 1/2" and even if I did, the trigger puller owuld quickly become the limiting factor! But then I am brutally honest and funny about numbers and measurements, so the odds of me ever claiming a rifle that aggs little groups is quite small!

Well I was just trying to tell the guy my problens to help him out. No I dont think a gun shooting a inch and half group is doing great not at a hundred yards.
I do kmow how to measure a group and I know how bench rest shooter shoot. It really helps to know since I have a couple of them setting here right now.Plus some wind flags.
So to be brutally honest I think a lot of factory guns are able to shoot well but you may need to spend a little money to polish the ruff spots.

Marc_Stokeld,
If I am reading your post correctly I can't agree with any of it.
You seem to be ready to blame a good accurate rifle for all the problems of wind, ammo,and shooter error.
I can imagine the average Varmint shooter would decline to attend a benchrest shoot, and fail their rifle by misreading a tricky wind.
And a hotshot benchrest only shooter may get done over at a varmint shoot due to inexperence at Looong ranges, do ya reckon?
John L.

WOW! I sure muffed this post. Sorry about that! I made a very poor attempt at saying that most rifles are not as accurate as claimed on the internet (or anywhere else). THis is largely due to the typical shooter not knowing how to actually measure what the rifle is doing. Basically, it becomes "keep the good and throw out the bad". WHile this phylosophy gives you small groups to brag about, it does not tell what a rifle is really doing. I never said every shooter does not knwo hwo to measure, shoot, whateevr. But face it, the typical person does not measure accuracy like it is done in a BR match.

ANd also please note that i said if there was a truly accurate rifle in my safe, the limiting factor in group sizes would be me! I make no claim to being a BR shooter. I know my limitations and am big enough to admit it. This trait is another one that is very rare on interent shooting sites!

Most firearms are inherently far more accurate than are most of us human beings who use them.

Rick 0311
I think you hit the nail on the head.