I have a new Winchester Model 70 Classic Stainless in 30.06 that is not extracting properly. The extractor does not seem to be getting a good grip on the case. When the bolt is pulled to the rear, the round will be extracted part way and then the extractor lets it go and the round is left lying in the action. The only time it works properly (sometimes) is if the bolt is worked very fast. I removed the bolt from the rifle and slide a case under the extractor and it will not stay there. I have 2 other Classic Stainless, a .300 Win Mag and a .375 H&H, both of their extractors will hold the round on the bolt when I tried this. I replace the factory extractor with a Williams that I had and the problem remains. The extractor that came on the rifle looks to be a Williams also.

Any suggestions on anything I can do. I was about to send this out to get it rebarreled, but would like to take care of this first.

JD

Get a new spring steel extractor from Matt Williams at Williams Firearms. Takes about five minutes. Thanks...Bill

quote:

Originally posted by model70man:
Get a new spring steel extractor from Matt Williams at Williams Firearms. Takes about five minutes. Thanks...Bill

Now why didn't I think of that.

quote:

I replaced the factory extractor with a Williams that I had and the problem remains. The extractor that came on the rifle looks to be a Williams also.

Probably the extractor needs to be adjusted.

I agree with mudstud,had this just happen to me.It cost me 25 dollars.I could have fixed it myself but I do not have much knowledge with Winchesters.I just got my first mod. 70 rifles this year,5 of them.I was lucky to be in searching the week they announced the closure.

AKJD:
Have you measured with a caliper the difference between your rifles that have a correcly working extractor and compaired it to the rifle that fails to hold the cartridge rim.

My rifle has the same problem, but I don't have 2 rifle to compair.
Maybe bending the extractor claw a few thousand of inch would fix the problem.

Williams, the maker of the after market extractor claw should be able to suggest a simple easy fix, they probably been asked many times before. I would think it would be their specialty.
Hopefully someone on the forum has the correct knowledge to fix this problem.

If I remember correctly I was told mine was out of place.I first thought that it was because I bent it accidentally,but when I got it back fixed it was still bent.

quote:

Originally posted by mudstud:
Probably the extractor needs to be adjusted.

Here's an excerpt from our Gunsmith's Corner that outlines the procedure for adding tension to the extractor, which sounds like the problem you are experiencing....

Gunsmith's Corner

If you're still having problems after this.....please call our toll-free number at 1-888-257-3006 and I'll walk you through it.

AKJD,

Just a thought, but where a second extractor exhibits the same problem as the first, take a quick glance at the gap that exists between the extractor and the bolt lug. Compare the gap with your other guns. Could be the groove that the extractor rides in isn't deep enough, causing the extractor to lose it's grip. With the bolt out of the gun and a round under the extractor, the extractor should have enough of a grip on a round so as to withstand a fair amount of bolt manipulation without dropping the round. If not, something is out of whack.

AKJD:
I used the instruction mention by poster triggerguard1 published on the Williams Firearms Co. web site.

Truly I had my doubts that bending the extractor would fix this problem in my rifle.

The fit between the cartridge rim and the extrator claw on my rifle is to my mind very loose.
If I slowly pulled the bolt back, the fired cartridge allways fell out from under the extractor claw.

But not any more!

I followed the instructions, bent the extractor and now the cartridge is truly controlled on extraction no matter how slowly I pull back the bolt.

Here's how I bent my extractor:

I clamped the tail of the extractor between to pieces of 1"x 1.75"X6" oak wood. With the thin area of the extractor sandwiched across the wood with both ends of the extractor sticking out either side of the wood. The edge of the wood 1/4" away from the milled pocket the extrator collar fits into.
Then I clamped this wood and metal sandwich in my vise.

I pushed on the protuding claw portion hard with the intent to bend it.
I had to push hard this metal is tough and springy.
I deflected the metal about 3/4".
I did this about 3 times and each time the metal returned to what appeared to be its unbent postion.
I laid the extrator on the table of my drill press with the claw over hanging the edge, I could now see that I had bent the extrator slighly as their was now a slight gap under the extrator at the area where the collar slides in.
This gap is about as thick as two sheet of paper, you can't even see the bend only a straight edge could detect a change.

I reinstalled the extractor and tested a cartridge for fit.

Working both an empty cartrigde and an A-Zoom dummy cartridge through the action.
Both were completly held against the bolt face.

With the bolt out of the action I can slide a cartridge under the extractor and only feel slight friction drag between these parts.
I don't belive I over did it and bent it to much as the parts work together perfectly.
Now I have true claw controled feeding and extraction!
The whole job took about 15min and was dead easy.

Thanks for the responses everyone. I'll try bending the extractor tonight.

Malm: I compared the bolts pretty closely. It appears as if the grove is as deep as it could be without causing binding of the extractor as it rotates over the lugs.

Glad to see that worked out for you greenjoy....Now if we can just get AKJD's rifle working right.......


The first 25,000 or so extractors that we made for Winchester were not tensioned by us. We sold them as an aftermarket part, but we tensioned them for our customers.
We were told when the deal got started that we did not need to tension them, since Winchester already had a fixture for doing it in-house.
Obviously, we weren't going to dispute this claim and let them worry about the bending.

A year or so later, we make a trip back there, only to discover that they weren't putting any tension at all on them. They had a fixture that was designed for the casted part that was useless for the one we were doing.

So......only about the last 6-8,000 extractors came from the Winchester factory with proper tension on them....Most of those were used on the FN SPR Sniper rifles in the last few months of production.

I tried tensioning the extractor and it did not fix the problem. I bent it a little at a time and up to the point where I had a hard time getting the extractor on the bolt. The fit is improved a little but the bolt still will not hold a empty case when out of the rifle and will not extract the case reliably when the bolt is worked slowly.

Any other Ideas?

quote:

Originally posted by AKJD:
I tried tensioning the extractor and it did not fix the problem. I bent it a little at a time and up to the point where I had a hard time getting the extractor on the bolt. The fit is improved a little but the bolt still will not hold a empty case when out of the rifle and will not extract the case reliably when the bolt is worked slowly.

Any other Ideas?

Just a thought (since everyone here seems to be guessing anyway), have you closely examined the case heads of fired rounds to see if the case heads show any sign of abnormal distortion?

You said that the extractor wouldn’t hold a case with the bolt out of the rifle but you didn’t say if that was a full round or just an empty case that had already been fired.

Will the extractor hold on to live rounds or dummys?

AKJD,

Sorry about that, I don't know what I was thinking since you obviously had already done that. Thanks...Bill.

I thought Winchester CRF actions were supposed to be reliable. Imagine the extractor srewing-up in a dangerous situatuion!

AKJD:
Sorry this is not working out for you.
Were you able to make accurate compairisons on bolts that hold a cartridge rim to the one that fails to hold a cartridge.
When I first started this adjusment process I could not belive a little bending could take up the slack in the huge gap between the bolt face and the under side of the claw. My cartridge could actually be rattled up and down severl thou. (I should have put a spark plug feeler gauge in and mesured the gap).

Maybe the groove milled around the front edge of the bolt was cut too far forward causing the claw to be too far from the bolt face.
Again compaire a good to the bad bolt dimensions with a calipier.

Maybe its possible to bend the claw into the bolt face a few thou. I think it might be time to see a gunsmith before you whack the claw down with a hammer. Use a factory authorized repair gunsmith let him whack it with a hammer.
Their will still be replacement parts available though I doubt you will need any. Gunsmith tinkering will probably to the trick.

Maybe give Williams firearms a call.

I out of ideas now.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I thought Winchester CRF actions were supposed to be reliable. Imagine the extractor srewing-up in a dangerous situatuion!

If past posts on this site (including this one) are any indication it would appear that Winchester 70’s are very “reliable.†You can certainly “rely†on them having cycling problems that need to be fixed if you want them to function as designed and advertised.

AKJD,

I have not read all the post so please forgive me if I repeat someone.

Since you have tried to adjust the extractor and that didn't work, it may be you have a magnum bolt for a standard caliber. If your cartridge does not fit the bolt face with just a little clearence you may have a magnum bolt. This would account for the lack of 'pinch' of the cartridge to the bolt face.

Good luck,
Headache

Shootaway and fyj
I would rather my thread not be turned into a Winchester bashing thread. Start your own if you feel the need to do that, otherwise stay out of mine if you have nothing constructive to add. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by AKJD:
Shootaway and fyj
I would rather my thread not be turned into a Winchester bashing thread. Start your own if you feel the need to do that, otherwise stay out of mine if you have nothing constructive to add. Thanks.

I’m not bashing them at all, only pointing out that unless the people that own them know how to properly adjust and tweak things (which you obviously don’t) they don’t always work the way they are supposed to as they come from the factory. That can also be said of other brands as well.

When you buy a factory rifle you get what you get and if you don’t know how to fix rifles yourself you should take it to a gunsmith.

I have fixed this sort of problem before on mausers by relieving the part of the extractor that rides in the groove slightly allowing the claw to move a little more towards the center of the bolt face.

It doesn't usually take very much, and, you must maintain the correct contour to fit the bolt.

I guess Winchesters would be the same.

Hope it helps, Rojelio.

quote:

Originally posted by fyj:

I’m not bashing them at all, only pointing out that unless the people that own them know how to properly adjust and tweak things (which you obviously don’t) they don’t always work the way they are supposed to as they come from the factory. That can also be said of other brands as well.

When you buy a factory rifle you get what you get and if you don’t know how to fix rifles yourself you should take it to a gunsmith.

Thanks for stating the obvious, (Obviously your a master of the obvious). Part of the reason for this forum is so that people can learn. I'm sure those that know how to fix this problem didn't come from the womb with the knowledge and had to learn it somehow.

Thanks Rojelio,
I will try that next. I measured the grove that the extractor rides in on the 3006 bolt and on the magnum bolt I have. On the 3006 it is .047 deep and on the Magnum it is .069 deep. Here is a picture of the bolts showing hte position of the extractors.

By the looks of the photo, it is obvious that the 06 extractor needs to go in a fair amount. How much clearance is there between to lug and the extractor?

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
By the looks of the photo, it is obvious that the 06 extractor needs to go in a fair amount. How much clearance is there between to lug and the extractor?

After seeing the picture I was going to mention that but thought it was too “obvious!â€

AKJD,

From your picture you have the extractors reversed. The extractor on the magnum bolt is the 30-06 and the extractor on the 30-06 bolt is the magnum extractor. The I.D. marks on the nose gives it away. No I.D. mark is standard calibers, two lines are belted magnums and three lines are for the Weatherby cartridges.

Switch them around and adjust the "pinch" and you should be all set.

Happy New Year,
Headache

The extractors are on the right bolts. The magmum bolt is on the bottom, 30.06 on top. The magnum extractor is noticebly longer than the 30.06 extractor.


The extractors on the bolts are a magnum from Williams that I put on and the original Williams 30.06 extractor which came on the rifle. The extractors not on the bolts are the original Winchester (not a Williams)and a Williams 30.06 that I had.

The extractor hook on the 30/06 bolt (in the earlier side by side photo) looks too short or is not pressed in far enough.

Compare the 30/06 extractor hook and its position in relation to the metal surrounding the counterbore to the magnum's.

Basically..and you are probably already aware of this but just in case ....you have three positions for the claw extractor

1) It is too tight and prevents the extractor groove from sliding under the hook. Obvious problems.

2) The extractor hook is too far away from the bottom of the extractor groove of the case...this is what you have. When the bolt is pulled bacl slowly the case drops out and finishes on the follower. When to pull the bolt back fast the case does not have time to fall out and so stays on the bolt face long enough for it to hit the ejector blade.

3) Just right

As I remember, the poster Headache was an engineer at Winchester so his comments on the grooves or slots on the face of the extractor hook are probably right. Of course I suppose it is reasonable to say Winchester could mark them incorrectly.

However, the bottom line is the extractor hook on the 30/06 bolt in the earlier picture is too far out and that can be seen when looking at its position in relation to the counterbore metal.

There would be three basic possibilities.

1) The hook is too short

2) The bending, tension or positioning is incorrect

3) The body or metal of the extractor behind the hook is too thick and won't let you bring the extractor hook in closer.

But again, the bottom line is that (for whatever reason) when the case head slides under the extractor the hook is too far off the extractor groove of the case.

For whatever it is worth, the problem was quite common on M70 Stainless that came to Australia and Winchester Australia had extractors in stock and "that was the fix". It may also have applied to the chrome moly rifles but I never saw as many of those rifles.

Mike

AKJD,

The extractor on the right in your first picture is a magnum extractor with two I.D. marks!!! I know because I designed them and came up with the I.D. system to tell the difference between the three extractors because they are so close dimensionally. Just try and switch them to make me happy. Matt makes excellent parts, top rate, but I don't know if he uses the I.D. system.

Headache

Well, Its hard to argue with the person that designed the things, but here is the whole story.

I have 3 Win Classic Stainless rifles. The first year I was stationed in Alaska I went hunting with my Blue/Walnut Ruger Mk II 270 and it rained the whole time. I got my moose but the rifle was constantly soaked and I figured it was time to go stainless. After the season ended I walked into the Ft Wainwright sports store and purchased the only 300 Win Mag stainless rifle they had which happened to be a Winchester, my first Winchester rifle. At some point a few years ago I replaced the pot metal Winchester extractor with one I purchased from Williams and put on an HS precision stock. Life was good. The rifle shoots well enough to have accounted for several moose, a few caribou, a kudu, zebra, springbok, and a gemsbok. Last year I decided I wanted a .375 H&H Classic Stainless and purchased one just as Winchester was going out of business. I again ordered a blued Williams extractor to replace the one that came with the rifle (even though it came with a Williams, I wanted a blued one to see how it looked) added Williams one piece bottom metal and put it in a McMillan stock. It hasn’t killed anything yet but we will give it a try this year. Both rifles feed and extract without a problem. This year while sheep hunting I was using my Remington 30.06. I had it attached to my pack as I climbed up the side of a mountain out of a creek bottom. The side of the mountain was steep and covered with alders so I needed both hands to climb. I got to within 400 yards of 4 rams that were bedded down and took off my pack to begin the final stalk, when I looked down at the rifle the bolt was open and the action was full of sticks and leaves. It must have caught on a branch while I was crawling through some real thick stuff and came open since the safety does not lock the bolt down. Needless to say I was not a happy camper. I did get my sheep 2 days later but I decided I couldn’t live with my bolt opening on its own. I have wanted to build a light rifle for mountain hunting and decided now was a good time to get started. Because of the bolt issue I decided to go with a Winchester since I already have 2 and these would be my main hunting rifles, all the same type. I purchased the 30.06 a month ago with the intent on sending it to PacNor to have a featherweight barrel installed and putting a lightweight fiberglass stock on it. I would like to figure out this problem before I send it out for the barrel work.

I have in my possession the original magnum extractors that came with the rifles and the Williams extractors that are on the bolts. The extractors I purchased have not been removed from the bolts since I put them on. They are all 4 the same length. The extractor that is on the 30.06 bolt is the same one that came on the rifle, it is the one that has the marks. I also have another 30.06 extractor from Williams, it has the marks. Both of the 30.06 extractors are the same length and are a very obvious 1/8 of and inch or so shorter than the ones on the magnum bolts. There are no marks on the extractors that came with the two magnums or the Williams extractors that I installed.

So, if magnum extractors have two marks and 30.06 extractors don't as stated, and therefore the extractors are on the wrong bolts, the following would have had to have happened:

1. When I bought the .300, Winchester would have had to installed the wrong extractor on the rifle and Williams would have had to send me the wrong size extractor because both the extractor that came with the rifle and the Willims replacement don't have marks and are therefore non-magnum extractors.
2. When I bought the .375, Winchester would have had to installed the wrong extractor on the rifle and Williams would have had to send me the wrong size extractor because both the extractor that came with the rifle and the Williams replacement don't have marks and are therefore non-magnum extractors.
3. When I bought the 30.06, Winchester would have had to installed the wrong extractor on the rifle and Williams would have had to send me the wrong size extractor because both the original and the Williams replacement have marks and are therefore magnum extractors.

What are the chances of that happening?

I've got a headache.

Just for S&Gs, I switched the extractors on the bolts pictured and it didn't fix the problem. The marked extractor worked on the magnum bolt, the unmarked extractor had the same problem on the 30.06 bolt. I think Rojelio had the right idea.

When I get a chance I will try the remedy that Rojelio suggested. If that doesnt fix it I'll send it off to Penrod.

Thanks for the help everyone and Happy New Year.

Well, this thread has succeeded in one thing, getting me hopelessly confused! I just checked the markings on the extractor nose on several of my older Classics (mid to late 90's production). I assume these all have the cast extractors. My 300 Weatherby extractor doesn't have any hash marks on its nose. A .243 extractor has one hash mark. A Custom Shop 7mmSTW I own, has no marks on the extractor nose. Other Classics I own going up to about 2003 or so, production, all are magnums of one sort or another, and all have two hash marks on the extractor.

All of the Classics I own that were made in the last two years of production, none have any hash marks on the extractor nose, regardless of caliber. These, I have always assumed, were Williams extractors. So, this raises several questions.

1.) Is there any way to definitively tell whether an extractor is a factory cast piece or a Williams machined extractor, without taking it off the bolt?

2.) Are all factory extractors on rifles manufactured before about 2004, the cast units, or were some machined?

3.) If some earlier Classics (or possibly Custom Shop models) had machined extractors, were these Williams extractors, or something else?

I hope that what with Headache and triggerguard1 contributing to this thread, I can get unconfused! Thanks!

AKJD,

The regular production extractors were not cast but MIM'ed metal injected molded)up until around three years ago. After that time I believe thay were manufacured by Williams Mfg., Matt would be able to give a more accurate date on this. The custom shop used machined extractors. The MIM extractors had the I.D. marks I mrntioned earlier. For a dimensional reference, the standard caliber extractor was about .317" from the back of the extractor to the lip that enguaged in the extractor cut of the cartridge and the magnum extractor was about .282". This would give about .035" more on the surface to extract the smaller standard cartridge.

Also, it was not uncommon for a rifle to leave the factory with an incorrect extractor.

Good Luck,
Headace

We began making the extractors for USRAC about 3 years ago.

What headache has mentioned about the identification of the extractors is spot on....

However, when we set out to make these extractors, we opted to utilize a system of identification that was easier for our internal use, as well the end customer who would be looking to replace their existing MIM'd extractors.

The system of identification is as follows:

Magnum Right-Hand= M-R
Standard Right-Hand= S-R
Magnum Left-Hand= M-L
Standard Left-Hand= S-L

These marks will be located on the underneath side of every extractor we've ever manufactured.

Never did we use the hash mark system of engraving that Winchester had been using in the past.

The reason that our extractor is longer than the casted models was because of the ejection port that gets opened up on the 375 H&H models and above in the USRAC factory.
We increased the overall length by .160" and applied that length to all of our extractors, regardless of the caliber they were being used on.

As Headache also mentioned, you very well find extractors that were used in the Custom Shop that didn't have the hash mark engraving either on earlier rifles. This is because I believe Jim Wisner was making them at that time. Something else that would be noted on those is the fact that Jim's extractor was even longer than ours and as far as I know, only available in spring steel.
Every extractor that we sent USRAC was machined from 416 stainless. They never received a single part from us made from 4140, like we've made available to our aftermarket customers.

Something else to note is the fact that every extractor Winchester has ever used on their "Classics", not their pre-64's, have been stainless. The first were MIM'd and the last couple of years of production were our machined parts.
The first ones for a long time that were casted, were later teflon coated to somewhat match a blued receiver, but that was later dropped near the end of production of that receiver.
Out of all the extractors we made for USRAC, I believe only a handful, if that many, were actually teflon coated, with the rest left with a fine matte finish, even for the blued rifles.



AKJD, If you like to send us your problem bolt and extractor, we will gladly fix the problem and send it backto you for free.

Sometimes the tolerance stack that occured on the machining of the bolt face and extractor groove could accumulate enough to cause the problem that you're describing.
The fact that you've used two different extractors from us that are suffering from the same problem would lead me to believe that it is in the bolt, and not the extractor.
However, to fix your problem and get the cartridges to feed properly, the easiest method will be to modify the extractor slightly to fit.
We can do this very quickly and accurately and it won't be a guessing game of any kind, as it may end up being with someone that hasn't had to perfrom this function before.

You can send it over to our address UPS and we can have it turned around in no more than 1 business day.

Here's our address in case you don't already have it.

Williams Firearms Company
2734 High Desert Ln.
suite 105
Prineville, OR 97754


Please include a note or copy these forum pages, so that my girls in the office make sure to deliver it straight to me.

Hope this helps getting you up and running sooner.

quote:

Originally posted by Headache:
AKJD,

The extractor on the right in your first picture is a magnum extractor with two I.D. marks!!! I know because I designed them and came up with the I.D. system to tell the difference between the three extractors because they are so close dimensionally. Just try and switch them to make me happy. Matt makes excellent parts, top rate, but I don't know if he uses the I.D. system.

Headache

Pete....If you're still reading this...give me a ring sometime.

Like to hear how things are going for ya with your job.

Got a couple of things worth discussing on some projects too.

1-888-257-3006

Thank you, gentlemen, for your kind responses!

Matt,

Just finished my first day of retirement! I will give you a call, always good to talk to you.

Nice of you to help out AKJD.

Happy New Year,
Pete Hylenski