This thread is built off of a previous question I asked regarding establishing proper stock fit...

How to get fitted for a stock

I feel these topics go hand in hand so to speak and that once you have the correct dimensions for
stock fit I’d think that next point of concern is how it should balance, feel & handle.....so...

When you setup a DG rifle how do you achieve the correct balance and handling characteristics for the shooter?

What do you look for in a rifle in this respect?

I have held/fondled several rifles that felt “alive” in my hands(!) They felt easy to carry and adjust and really quick to mount, aim and swing.

On the other hand I have hefted many more rifles that felt bulky by comparison almost like they required more effort to bring into action and were a bit cumbersome to handle. I never could quite ge the feel for them...

I’d like to achieve that “alive” and natural feel in my rifles handling characteristics and I am wondering how others build or modify their rifles to achieve this goal........???

Lastly, I have done some web surfing to see what I could find in this respect...not much!

One short video I did find interesting was made by Larry Potterfield of MIDWAY USA. In a nut shell he just points out how the British and the Americans differed in where they felt the
balance point of a rifle should be.

Have a look.... Rifle Balance Point


Interested to hear your thoughts.

Best Regards,
Dave

Shoot two or three different rifles of the same cartridge often.Then determine with which one your are more comfortable and shoot better.Ask yourself why do I like that one-what it is about it that makes it better? You will then have an idea as to what the perfect fitting rifle for that cartridge is for your way of shooting.IMO,there is no way of making a rifle that will universally apply to all shooters and cartridges such that it will perform best all the time.Slant the stock on a 458 and some will find it a great help while others will get smacked in the head.

Balance is one thing, dynamic handleing is another. A heavy rifle can be balanced and still feel heavy and sluggish. The key is to centralize the weight of the rifle as much as possible. Such a rifle is not intended for the target bench, so taper that barrel, shorten the forend and rib as much as possible without losing function.

Centralized weight makes the rifle carry easier and point faster, just generaly a more pleasant rifle to use.

Mr. Bradshaw,

Thank you for the response!

If I am understanding you correctly.... one should try to get as much of the rifles overal weight to rest in between the hands when in the carry position? At least 50% of the overal rifle weight or perhaps more I would think...???

The short video I posted as a link noted that the British & German rifles had a balance point that was about 5 1/2 inches from the trigger face. Does this sound about right to you?


BTW - your work is absolutely amazing!

Best,
Dave

Try shooting skeet for a number of years with variety of shotguns and you will know exactly what you want.

Asking the question here is a very good place from which to start. It takes practice to get it right. I suggest getting Steve Hughes' books "Fine Gunmaking, Double Shotguns" and "Double Guns and Custom Gunsmithing," as well as tracking down back copies of Shooting Sportsman for any issues in which Steve wrote about custom shotgun gunstocks. Oh yeah, he fairly recently wrote a series of articles in Sports Afield about custom stocks. He has written some good stuff on not just balancing a gun, but making a balanced gun that is responsive. Even if it is about shotguns, it will be good for you to read. If you are serious about being a good stockmaker, then learning about all sorts of custom guns, even ones you personally have no desire to build, will help you create better stocks that are in your wheelhouse.

As you progress you will find that very, very few gunwriters know what they are talking about and everything you read should be taken with a couple of pounds of salt. Steve knows what he is talking about. Full disclosure here, Steve is a friend of mine, but if I did not like what he made or wrote I would just keep my mouth shut and would never say anything good abpout him. I am serious when I say what he wrote is some of the best balancing stuff I have seen in print.

I see you are in New England. David Trevallion can balance a broom handle where it feels alive. He has a book "Shotgun technicana" which has soem good stockmaking info in it. He is near you, as are many other fine shotgun guys. I am sure there are rifle guys in the area, but I am only aquainted with shotgun guys. Oh, new England Custom Guns is in your neighborhood. Dietrich Apel (retired) and my mind is vapor locking here on the owner's name. It is Mark something and he and Dietrich both know how to balance a rifle.

I would start by reading and then talking to as many professional stockmakers as you can. Many will not be able to balance to your liking, but all will be able to teach you soemthing. Then start making stocks nd playing with it until you get it right.

one other thing - become an associate member of the ACGG. It will get you the quarterly "Gunmaker" which will have soeem useful info in it. But more importantly it can help get you in touch with professional stockmakers who know what they are doing

I'm no expert but have done a lot of reading on this topic and have a fair bit of experience with rifles and guns of different designs.

The London makers all used to preach (and still do, for that matter) the "weight between the hands" mantra, and that has always meant at least 50% of the total weight, as far as I have been able to determine.

I think that's at least in part why an English rifle or gun has a slender and abbreviated stock, at least by American standards, and also a quickly stepped down and slender barrel or barrels.

It sure works, as the best English rifles and guns do seem to balance and point almost as if they are alive, or at least they do for me.

The trade off is more recoil and movement during recoil.

In rifles, when you get up to a .500 caliber or thereabouts, the heavier recoil and delayed time between shots that are by-products of the English design start to weigh a lot heavier in the equation.

For me, as far as a big bore rifle is concerned, as long as the point of balance is in the right spot, right around the receiver ring in a bolt rifle or the action hinge pin of a double, I am happier with a bit more weight and a bit less "liveliness."

I find that even though less lively, the well-balanced but heavier rifle will still come to the shoulder quickly, hang well and be quick on the comeback for second shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Asking the question here is a very good place from which to start. It takes practice to get it right. I suggest getting Steve Hughes' books "Fine Gunmaking, Double Shotguns" and "Double Guns and Custom Gunsmithing," as well as tracking down back copies of Shooting Sportsman for any issues in which Steve wrote about custom shotgun gunstocks. Oh yeah, he fairly recently wrote a series of articles in Sports Afield about custom stocks. He has written some good stuff on not just balancing a gun, but making a balanced gun that is responsive. Even if it is about shotguns, it will be good for you to read. If you are serious about being a good stockmaker, then learning about all sorts of custom guns, even ones you personally have no desire to build, will help you create better stocks that are in your wheelhouse.

As you progress you will find that very, very few gunwriters know what they are talking about and everything you read should be taken with a couple of pounds of salt. Steve knows what he is talking about. Full disclosure here, Steve is a friend of mine, but if I did not like what he made or wrote I would just keep my mouth shut and would never say anything good abpout him. I am serious when I say what he wrote is some of the best balancing stuff I have seen in print.

I see you are in New England. David Trevallion can balance a broom handle where it feels alive. He has a book "Shotgun technicana" which has soem good stockmaking info in it. He is near you, as are many other fine shotgun guys. I am sure there are rifle guys in the area, but I am only aquainted with shotgun guys. Oh, new England Custom Guns is in your neighborhood. Dietrich Apel (retired) and my mind is vapor locking here on the owner's name. It is Mark something and he and Dietrich both know how to balance a rifle.

I would start by reading and then talking to as many professional stockmakers as you can. Many will not be able to balance to your liking, but all will be able to teach you soemthing. Then start making stocks nd playing with it until you get it right.

one other thing - become an associate member of the ACGG. It will get you the quarterly "Gunmaker" which will have soeem useful info in it. But more importantly it can help get you in touch with professional stockmakers who know what they are doing

mark,

where is david trevallion located?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidC:
Mr. Bradshaw,

Thank you for the response!

If I am understanding you correctly.... one should try to get as much of the rifles overal weight to rest in between the hands when in the carry position? At least 50% of the overal rifle weight or perhaps more I would think...???

The short video I posted as a link noted that the British & German rifles had a balance point that was about 5 1/2 inches from the trigger face. Does this sound about right to you?


For a rifle, yes, 5 to 5.5" is about right for the balance. It gives a slight barrel heavy feel which aids in holding the rifle steady. A grouse gun would be more of a point and shoot gun and would require more neutral balance, so the balance point would be more like 4" from the trigger. Hard to come up with a hard and fast rule as all rifles are a little different and customers desires are as well.

I echo Mr. Stokeld's sentiment on S.D. Hughes books. I have both and they are full of usefull information. Mr. Hughes offers a view of several methods other than his own on several subjects like stock finishing too. "Shotgun technicana" is a good one, but a bit more eclectic in content.

There is nothing like hands on experience. Buy something like a Handi-rifle and set about making it handle like a wand. Hollow the butt stock and taper the barrel for starters. See what you can do with it and how each change affects the feel of the rifle.

Jeff, you have a PM.

There is more to it than total weight and balance point. Weight distribution has a big part in rifle "feel."

Thanks for the replys!

Great stuff to help build my knowledge base!

Marc,
I will look up the texts & magazines you have mentioned. SDH certainly does a great job of focusing upon the meaningful in his content. An ACGG associate member sounds like a great idea as well...never occured to me...

I have spoke to Mark Cromwell at NECG and I am due to head up to his place for a stock fitting. As I have mentioned in my previous thread on fit I am working or a rough stock trying to come up with all the critical numbers, dimensions and now address the balance and handling points needed to really bring a rifle together. There is so much to learn and consider it is amazing! I find it especially difficult to try and figure out how each choice I make will effect other aspects of the rifle further along in the process as well as what options I will have going forward. Sort of a series of trade offs.....*if I do this I will gain these options but loose others*. Subtle decisions but it seems like a series of small choices can really make or break a rifle project.

I am not farmiliar with David Trevallion. No website that I could find. I will have to give him a call and see what he says about a stock fitting rifles. He looks to be a real Master!!!



bcp,
You bring up a very good point with your diagram. It appears to be a great visual representation of what Baily Bradshaw was saying in an earlier post....

quote:

Balance is one thing, dynamic handleing is another. A heavy rifle can be balanced and still feel heavy and sluggish. The key is to centralize the weight of the rifle as much as possible.

and.....

quote:

Centralized weight makes the rifle carry easier and point faster, just generaly a more pleasant rifle to use.

I leave info. out of my posts because I have found that if I am to thorough the point gets lost and the thread dies a quick death with no knowledge gained. Here are a few other point I'd love to hear about...

I have heard the 50% between the hands for many years. What is intresting about that general statement is.....*how* you distribute that 50% or so also has an inpact in handling. From what I have been told.....Still speaking about the area between the hands.

Orient that weight in some precentage to the rear(hand) and the rifle or shotgun will be *fast* to get into action for snap shooting. Orient it to the front(hand) and it will be *smooth* swinging for hitting running targets.

Another factor I have heard mention of is *Handling Centerline*.

The handling centerline is an imaginary line running from the center (top to botton & side to side) of the butt throught the center of the pistol grip right up to the center of the muzzle. This is the *handling center line* or linear center of gravity. Adding a scope raises the center of gravity and begings to knock things out of balance. A large scope throws it out the window and gives a rifle a club like feel...

I am sure there are MANY more factors I am ignorant of....


As Michael R. said...it also appears to me that if your rifle has enough recoil some of the above cocept might have to be traded off or modified to handle the recoil. I would imaging there is a point of diminishing returns here when heavy recoil is a big factor...

I would like to eventually build a .500 of some sort... [ 500 AHR, 505 Gibbs, 500A2 ] and I don't want to hate shooting the thing so
any advice for a real heavy would be appreicated...!



jsl3170,
A couple addresses for you...

David Trevallion
9 Old Mountain Rd.
Cape Neddick, ME 03902
207-361-1130

NECG -- Mark Cromwell
741 Main Street
Claremont, NH 03743
603-287-4836

NECG

Lastly, here is a link to Barry Lee Hands webiste with a thread on David Trevallion. As a side note our members "gunmaker" James Anderson and Mike Petrov are also in the thread.

ACGG - Trevallion, Anderson & Petrov


Had to get all that off my chest.....whew!

Best,
Dave