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Every stock manufacture claims they've got the strongest stock, yada, yada. Now, what kind of test could one use to see who really does have the strongest stock. Not that it really matters, but just for arguments sake. Jay | ||
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Jay.....strong is only part of it tests to determine water absobption, cold fracture, bending, heat deflection, shock resistance. I'd say one wants to know a lot more than strong. IMO McMillan is the stock I'd buy for durability.....another is Bordon's Rimrock. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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That's a really good queation. How strong does a stock have to be? Is it necessary for a stock intended to fit a 30-06 to be as strong as one from the same compnay for a 458 Lott? Does a benchrest stock have to be as strong as one intended to be packed in the mountains all season? I think its all in the intended use. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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You might look here. Tech at brownells said they were good. http://www.accurateinnovations.com/ Semper Fi WE BAND OF BUBBAS STC Hunting Club | |||
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Vapo, I know McMillan is a very good stock, but I've always been partial to H-S, they seem to work as advertised, have found they don't need to be bedded as alot of guys think, and the combination of materials they use, kevlar, fiberglass, etc, plus the aluminum bedding block would seem to make this stock the ultimate in strength. What is your opinion of the H-S stock? Thanks, Jay | |||
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If strong is your only point of reference I'd say the Accurate Innovations Laminates are as strong as anybody in second place and then some.  If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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Jay the strongest i have ever seen are the ones made here in Edmonton by the fiberglass store. They are all one offs and providing he has the mold he will varie the thickness of fiberglass or carbon to suit your needs. They are an I beam style stock and they are very riged. They come unfinished and unbedded you have to get your gun plumber to finish them off. The mans name is Stu Reid of Edmonton Alberta and the name is Wildcat Gunworks and or The Fiberglass Store Edmonton. No ones shit holds a candle to his stuff this man is a genius with cloth and resin. Downside tho !!!!!!!! He is decidedly NOT CHEAP! He used to sell to Brownells but I think private sales over seas put him back in the private sales market. Make a lot of crap and sell many or make a lot of good, sell few and charge for it! Rod Henrickson When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years! Rod Henrickson | |||
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As the story goes, in 1975 when the USMC was looking for a synthetic stock for their M40’s they went to Gale McMillan and he produced a sample/test stock for them. Supposedly they took it out and proceeded to try and destroy it...up to and including running over it with a truck. Since they have been using nothing but McMillan stocks since that time it stands to reason that it passed all their “tests.†| |||
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Quarter-sawn. SDH ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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quarter sawn! good answer  Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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Rick, if the Marines couldn't break it, then I'll buy that McMillan makes a hell of a tough stock. I haven't seen much a determined Marine couldn't destroy! Tex Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | |||
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Mcmillan is the only manufacturer that I know of that offers a lifetime unconditional warranty that includes breakage. | |||
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bansner will replace a broken stock, although if you bought it as a blank, then that is what they will replace it with. Last year they replaced a stock which I had bought even before bansner bought High-Tech | |||
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Tex, As a retired Marine I can certainly verify your observation!  | |||
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| <allen day> |
McMillan makes the best and strongest stock on the planet in my opinion. The "quarter-sawn" is ridiculous. I wouldn't place any hard money on that bet if I were you  .........AD | ||
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Granted, I have a built in prejudice for the Marine Corps, but my personal prejudice does not alter the fact that if there was a better or stronger rifle stock out there it would have been adopted for the M40 sniper rifles as soon as it came on the market...and that goes for every other part of those rifles as well. The guys at Quantico that build those rifles are all shooters, and they are always looking for the best “mouse-trap†out there. Their one and only loyalty is to the men who have to rely on those rifles in combat to defend other Marines. The Marines just recently upgraded their M40’s and I will guarantee you that every company building synthetic stocks offered up samples to try and get that contract. The new M40’s have McMillan stocks just like they have had for the last 30 years, and if some other company starts building a better stock you will see it on those rifles real quick. There are other “good†stocks out there...but no company, so far, has produced a better product than McMillan. | |||
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Of course we know that M40 must be a piece of junk cause its built on a push feed remington 700...  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Why? If you had a plain sawn stock and the grain runs vertically, it is essentially quarter sawn in, 90 degrees to what passes for quarter sawn in a good stock. Either way, I would think the stock would be just as strong, providing that there is no difference in grain run out in either case. Just curious why rings running left to right are stronger than running up and down. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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Allen, Do you think the materials Mac uses are stronger than these? Materials: • Woven Kevlar® cloth • Woven fiberglass cloth • Uni-directional carbon fiber • Epoxy-based gel coat and laminating resin • Reaction injection molded (machine mixed) polyurethane foam, fiberglass reinforced • Proprietary CNC machined aluminum bedding block chassissystem, designed by H-S Precision. And H-S offers.. Warranty — All H-S Precision Pro-Series stocks are covered by a limited lifetime warranty to the original purchaser. A copy of this warranty is included with each. I don't know, but this looks pretty good to me. Jay | |||
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Jay, HS makes a fine stock, though I would question your observation that they do not need to be bedded for top accuracy as it is physically impossible to have a mass produced aluminum block fit a mass produced steel receiver with as much accuracy as epoxy bedding material that is formed to each individual receiver. The mere use of certain materials also does not automatically equate to more strength if the design and manufacturing process does not take full advantage of those materials. McMillan has been at the forefront of R&D on synthetic stocks for allot of years, and based on their client list that R&D has certainly paid off with a stock that is virtually indestructable for all practical purposes. I doubt that most of us will ever subject our rifles to the abuse and extreme climatic conditions that military rifles face anyway, so allot of this discussion is pretty academic. There have been a few instances on this forum where people have broken an HS stock...but I have never heard of anyone breaking a McMillan. It may have happened...but I, personally have never heard of it. | |||
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Allen, I am curious how many broken HS stocks have you seen...everyone I know is happy with theirs Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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We had 4 Brown Precision break in the wrist. McMillan is good as is MPI out of Portland, Or. If you stick to wood, one cannot beat Screwbean Mesquite. It is equally hard to find. All good gunstock wood will overlap in properties with the individual piece being the most important. However, the average Bastogne walnut (English/Claro cross) is the densest and strongest of the walnuts. As previously stated, individual pieces of all wooods vary, we are discussing the average piece. The quarter sawn comment is simply stupid. What is important is individual grain flow in the important areas. | |||
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I agree in general, though I wouldn't quite go so far as to say "stupid". Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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I own and use synthetic stocks from a number of makers, the strongest I have had was from Clifton Arms of Texas and it was a really fine, albeit heavy, stock. A friend now has this to put together a .416 Rem. on a P-64 action that I sold him. Clifton Arms has been out of business for some years, too bad as they made an excellent product. I have seen one Micky broken through at the wrist, the "Featherweight" model used on the Mod. 70; this was due to a horse rolling on it and it is not a negative reflection on McMillan as anything would break under that impact. I like Micky stocks and prefer them on heavier rifles while using Rimrock on lighter rifles. I am going to get a couple of stocks from Wildcat as the reports I have had on them plus conversations with Stuart have impressed me very much. I have several Brown Precisions and have used them for twenty years with perfect satisfaction; this includes rolling down a steep mountain with a full pack while the rifle was under me and no damage was done except minor paint scrapes. I love fine wood, preferably quarter-sawn, but, the advantages of synthetic stocks in rough, wet hunting conditions such as here in B.C. are beyond question, IMO. | |||
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Allen, Talked to Dave @H-S, and they(H-S) don't use chopped glass, anymore. That was years ago. FWIW, he hasn't seen any stocks come in from breakage in the last 10yrs. And then you got over 6000 stocks that are used on the Army's M24 System that haven't been returned for warranty work, yeah, I know, the Army guys baby their weapons, so how can they break. Afterall, they aren't Marines, are they? All I know about bedding the H-S stocks are from my own experience, and thats if I can hold 1/2moa out to 300yds, and less than that @100yds. from my 708, she don't need bedding. Sure if you get a receiver thats not perfect, you may need to bed it, but from the stocks on my rifles they all make good, even contact, except my VS, that was bedded by Chris Mathews cuz Remington removed some of the "bed" material from the block cuz my barrel was leaning to the left, I imagine that was from the barrel being screwed-in a little "off", threads or whatever. Dave being very confident in his stocks told me he'd put his stocks up against any stock out there, McMillan or whatever. Jay ©H-S PRECISION, INC. 1301 TURBINE DRIVE, RAPID CITY, SD 57703 (605) 341-3006 TEL, (605) 342-8964 FAX | |||
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Jay, I’m glad you have had good experiences with HS...and I certainly wouldn’t try to talk you out of one of their stocks. Having said that, you are just wrong about bedding blocks being as accurate as epoxy bedding in fitting individual receivers. That is not to say that bedding blocks will not suffice for most normal shooting situations...but their use is nowhere near as precise as something molded directly to an individual receiver. As I am sure you are aware, all machined parts are built within certain plus and minus tolerances...and there is no way I am aware of to avoid that. If you measure 20 of those bedding blocks and 20 receivers (all the same brand and model) you will be hard pressed to find any two that are “exactly†the same size. As for the Army vs Marine thing...the Marines, the FBI (until very recently), and the SEALS, have been using McMillan stocks for allot longer than the Army has been using HS stocks, so they obviously have a much longer track record to use for comparison purposes. Perhaps in 20 years or so it will turn out that the HS stocks do hold up better than the McMillan’s...but that time hasn’t come yet. | |||
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Jay, if you know all the answers, why the question? Chuck | |||
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I don't really know how to test this without breaking one or the other and I can't afford to do so, but I'd place a wager that properly laminated walnut or other suitable hardwood is stronger than any composite stock made today. And heavier, and just as ugly. Laminates are strong enough to build airplanes out of, the Brit's Mosquito being a prime example. Composites can fail as a result of localized crush and collapse, something laminate will not do in the hands of an average man. JMO. If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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Dan, I wouldn’t take that bet. Laminated wood is about as strong as things get. You ever see those huge laminated wood beams in large buildings and warehouses? The rest of building could collapse and those friggin beams would still be intact. | |||
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Hmmmm....test goal? to verify repeatability of the accuracy and durability right? That's an easy thing to come up with shirley (purposeful mispell) 1. durability, machine to test abrasive resistance at grip, forearm and check contact areas where hands and face will be rubbing. I would think a smooth leather covered pad similar in density to a human hand on a hydraulic powered clamp that would repeatedly clamp wrist and forearm areas and something to press similar pad against the butt. 2. environmentally controllable room with a platform to fire the gun front to guarantee no human error in accuracy. do both acclimatized where the rifle is left in the new environment (i.e. cold and humid, hot and humid etc) and then fire groups. Also do rapid temp/humidity changes and test firing. 3. Common and possible structural damage tests, maybe with an x-ray scan in between for structure verification. drops onto the butt, side and so on. fallen on, submersion in water etc. of course test accuracy after each test. 4. chemical contact test. solvents, blood, water, repellants, oils, everything you can think of. But this all gets into the realm of is it really worth doing this? We know that after years of use some of these stocks have proven themselves as mentioned above. And there are always anomolies so some guy might have a quarter sawn stock that he has taken to every continent worth hunting and shot every animal on his dream list and it never failed him. Another guy might have a high tech synthetic that had an inclusion in it somewhere and it fails at just the wrong moment on a local white tail in a feed lot hunt. I too think it was more of a post to have a reason to convince people rather than ask honest opinions, still interesting though. Red | |||
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Quarter-sawn, with good layout. ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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Jay....I have very limited experience with synthetics.....I'm a fancy walnut fan. I've bedded some real crap from Winchester and fondeled some OK kinds of things but I've only actually used the (what I considered) best,.....McMillan ad Rimrock.....The rimrock at Jim Kobe's recommendation and that carries high weight to me. H S stocks wouldn't turn me off at all....but I have no personal experience with them. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| <allen day> |
Jay, based on your own positive experiences with that make, it sounds like you had better stick with H-S Precision stocks and forget about anything else........ AD | ||
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I have Clifton too and it's a shame he's out of business. I watched him build them and them and while not very light, they were hell for stout. There's damn little foam in a Clifton. I especially liked the way he rolled up a tight roll of resin-saturated woven glass mat for action screw columns (pillars). They were the full width of the shell, too. I understand the pull-out bipod was fragile, though. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Rick, I have seen those beams too! Wasn't thinking of them when I made the comments above though. Ones I recall were made of spruce though, maybe fir...they are strong though, let there be no doubt. Back in the 80's Fajen made me a walnut laminated stock for a #3, forend too. Lordy that thing would shoot when they got through with it! Still, it was a .22 Hornet and the butt stock might have been the most deadly part of the gun all things considered. Had a Neidner butt plate on it too. Mr. Crockett would have loved it at the Alamo as a round house swipe woulda crushed about a half dozen brainpans. If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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Dan, I’ll tell ya...you pretty much hit it on the head when you said heavy and ugly. Other than those two things laminated wood stocks are stronger than hell. With allot of the newer sealers and poly finishes coming out I think you might see some rethinking about wood being so susceptible to weather. Awhile back I had one of Daryl Holland’s laminated wood poly-coated stocks I was using for a project and I gotta believe that I could have left that thing in the swimming pool for a week without a drop of water ever getting past that finish. It looked and felt like a brand new Bowling Pin or one of those epoxy coated wood table tops. | |||
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Ya, and don't it make ya feel all warm and misty eyed when your buddies start comparing it to their Ottmar wood?  If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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An intercellular sealer. ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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